General Discussion

ProSense

(116,464 posts)

133. What

Wed Jul 17, 2013, 01:18 PM

Jul 2013

There has not been any sort of truth or reconciliation effort after 9/11. Instead government officials exhibit a grandiose sense of entitlement as they conduct themselves in a "we are above the law" manner. It is extremely arrogant to sweep away massive Bush administration betrayals of the public by claiming "we need to move on for the good of the country." Or to suggest that investigating torture is somehow tantamount to criminalizing politics.

The reason so many people support Snowden is because his leaks are based on the idea that the government has breached its trust with the public. The word of government officials isn't good enough to justify all this power and secrecy. Fearmongering and intimidation are not indicative of a government acting in good faith.

...the "Snowden is a hero crowd" doesn't get is that revealing U.S. state secrets in other countries have nothing to do the above.

Bush's illegal spying was exposed in 2005 by Thomas Tamm. The notion that criticism of Snowdens actions that led him to reveal U.S. state secrets to other countries and find himself stuck in Russia have anything to do with anyone's opinion of the government is hogwash.

You appear to expect people to overlook his actions overseas simply because there is a debate ongoing about NSA domestic programs. Not going to happen.

Snowden is a delusional and self-important clown. He and Greenwald (and their supports) have done everything to help make the story about them.

First, Greenwald announces that he has enough information to bring down the U.S.

Snowden follows by declaring he's immune to torture.

He's applying for temporary asylum in Russia.

Doesn't get any more bizarre than that. Well...

Edward Snowden Declares Himself Torture-Proof
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023275112

If Snowden's case as a whistleblower is so strong, why is he afraid to face the consequences?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023236549

Sen. Tester Calls On Snowden To Return To America To ‘Face The Music’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023281426

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What the "Snowden is a traitor" crowd don't get [View all] noise Jul 2013 OP

That IS certainly one of the things 'they' seem overly obtuse about, for sure. 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #1

snowden kardonb Jul 2013 #22

"Forget all the lame excuses of privacy" <-- your words 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #23

ummmm the privacy here is in telephone communications Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #24

Does the NSA equal the government? the United States? Does it trump the Constitution? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #33

Well, gee, can't argue with that word/colon salad. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #35

No, shit? Enthusiast Jul 2013 #58

You just repeated a talking point that has no basis in fact. Where did you get that from and sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #72

First of all you have no idea why Snowden took the job SomethingFishy Jul 2013 #115

he said himself why he took the job hopemountain Jul 2013 #215

So the FUCK what? Th1onein Jul 2013 #216

oh, well hopemountain Jul 2013 #252

First, WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE OF YOUR ALLEGATIONS? Th1onein Jul 2013 #253

where is YOUR evidence? hopemountain Jul 2013 #254

It works like this: When you accuse someone of something, you have EVIDENCE. Th1onein Jul 2013 #255

the evidence hopemountain Jul 2013 #256

Got links? On edit: Bzzzt! Times up! You FAIL again! Th1onein Jul 2013 #257

do your own research and reading hopemountain Jul 2013 #258

LOL! Too little, too late. Sorry, you FAIL. Again. Th1onein Jul 2013 #259

low as it gets BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #27

I suspect some may be sucking on Big Guv-mint tits, getting paid to do it 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #31

I agree BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #48

. 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #53

Einstein BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #55

Yah, that too. :-) eom 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #91

You don't need to prove it. Enthusiast Jul 2013 #59

Agree, I think it's very obvious who they are Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #60

I agree, monkey. What you said, exactly. And it rankles, more than you know... truth2power Jul 2013 #118

I'm that low creeksneakers2 Jul 2013 #178

how do you know Swagman Jul 2013 #180

Following the news creeksneakers2 Jul 2013 #211

What the "Snowden is a hero" crowd don't get brooklynite Jul 2013 #2

The public is intimidated into supporting these policies noise Jul 2013 #6

Snowden breached the trust his employer had in him, stole from the NSA and further breached the keep Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #9

And what Booz-Allen is doing to violate our Constitution dwarfs what Snowden did. But because they rhett o rick Jul 2013 #15

You need to do more research into why terrorist hate the US, it would be your great challenge. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #62

And you should not be so trusting of your government. Freedom requires vigilance. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #67

Do you use public roads for your transportation, enjoy having a defense department, enjoy local Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #71

You have already tried and convicted Snowden, not a very liberal outlook. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #73

I have not tried and convicted Snowden, you are wrong. I DON'T LIKE A THIEF. He is Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #76

If you call him a thief, then you have decided he is guilty. Are you Nancy Grace? rhett o rick Jul 2013 #78

Perhaps if you di not want Snowden labeled as thief then you should have told him Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #88

I just love the shift stirring nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #97

Sometimes honesty lightens your heart, soul and mind, it is good. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #99

And your handle is one full cup of irony nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #101

I usually run with a full cup, life is good. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #112

And it is time we say our good byes nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #120

My ignore list is growing. I began to notice that there are certain threads that "The Group" rhett o rick Jul 2013 #125

Their fear is we all put them on ignore and they remain a loud nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #134

I agree. nm rhett o rick Jul 2013 #135

You probably didn't see my response to your previous post about this. randome Jul 2013 #172

Ironic post of the day. zappaman Jul 2013 #230

Ah, so much for freedom of speech. Skidmore Jul 2013 #238

Yes but denial isnt good. nm rhett o rick Jul 2013 #124

Snowden is a Whistle Blower in the classic sense. All Whistle Blowers many of them sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #245

funny how Norquist's 'drown the gobmint' has become so popular here lately. Whisp Jul 2013 #110

You are misrepresenting me. I support the government but I dont grovel. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #121

Every day we learn a little more about the activities of Booz-Allen/NSA rhett o rick Jul 2013 #123

Booz Allen/NSA keep on claiming they are only following orders. Ford_Prefect Jul 2013 #143

It's called the Sgt. Schultz Syndrome. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #147

Nope. A check shows you are not accurate in your assertion. Pholus Jul 2013 #163

I know what you mean and I suggest Swagman Jul 2013 #184

There is a very big difference between . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #195

Might as well go Godwin. Where the Germans that wanted the ovens shut down Libertarians too? TheKentuckian Jul 2013 #232

It is?? Care to post something to demonstrate this? I'm more interested though in how sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #246

honestly of all the Snowden attacks this is the weirdest Swagman Jul 2013 #183

ccrikey..now we must shoot Snowden so we can have free roads Swagman Jul 2013 #182

+1000 GoneFishin Jul 2013 #116

His "employer" is an interesting word which raises the question,... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #30

Or used to make his employer rich? go west young man Jul 2013 #36

What would be hilarious at this point is if the place they were saving everything was in Russia. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #45

Well the new server farm is in Utah hootinholler Jul 2013 #65

How much secret information has Snowden outsourced? Did Snowden get paid? Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #64

How much secret information has Booz-Allen outsourced? Do they hold allegiance to America? rhett o rick Jul 2013 #129

I am not familiar with the contract with Booz-Allen, I do not know what requirements of their Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #136

Ok let's look at what you said. Mueller and Comey participated in illegal spying and rhett o rick Jul 2013 #140

I think I am beginning to see a problem here, your group are about 10 years too late with your facts Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #157

the rest of the story questionseverything Jul 2013 #175

about comey questionseverything Jul 2013 #148

I think you need to look at the dates of the information you have and check the ACLU on their Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #158

as of july 9th 2013 questionseverything Jul 2013 #174

In what year did this happen? Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #198

What about the bigger breach of trust from the government? lark Jul 2013 #109

"Broken trust, something many needs to know about Snowden" Phlem Jul 2013 #130

odd that people are more upset about Snowden "breaching Swagman Jul 2013 #181

He's not an enemy. He's a pathetic loser. randome Jul 2013 #187

I think I've asked this before but please post something to back your claim that Snowden sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #244

At this late stage you still don't know what he did? randome Jul 2013 #248

To the MEDIA. He was interviewed by the foreign PRESS AFTER sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #251

Those are all things Daniel Ellsberg did, too . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #193

Ellsberg had proof. Snowden has PowerPoint slides. randome Jul 2013 #194

The NSA has not denied the substance of Snowden's revelations . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #196

You're making assumptions. randome Jul 2013 #197

Let's see . . . markpkessinger Jul 2013 #199

No war. It's still a crime to show classified national security documents to other countries. randome Jul 2013 #203

hahaha BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #37

They are there to maintain the staus quo. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #46

100% agreed BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #51

I keep thinking they want to drastically lower the population. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #52

they do BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #54

Conspiracy types have LOVED this.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #56

Coincidence Theorists BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #57

The Bohemian Grove is the one that cracks me up.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #93

Bohemian Grove BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #166

You GO, BehindtheCurtain76! Th1onein Jul 2013 #218

Lol BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #234

Our government can identify North Korean ships without collecting the metadata on you and me JDPriestly Jul 2013 #40

"it wasn't his decision to make" Hissyspit Jul 2013 #44

"security" and "safety" will ALWAYS be invoked to justify clamping down on civil rights.... mike_c Jul 2013 #87

Do you think he would be gagged if he were in custody, or would he be free to speak out? reusrename Jul 2013 #95

At this point - it would be suspicious... Blanks Jul 2013 #153

Fine, he wouldn't get publicly tortured, I can buy that. But would he be gagged? reusrename Jul 2013 #154

It's not a complicated question... Blanks Jul 2013 #155

I figure you responded to me with a non-sequitor. reusrename Jul 2013 #205

Even if he was gagged during the trial, what would prevent him from speaking out afterwards? randome Jul 2013 #169

Ask Bobby Seale, who was literally gagged and bound by the court to force him to Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #185

Are you talking about something from 50 years ago? randome Jul 2013 #186

Thank Christ racial polarity has been completely fixed since then DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #192

Nothing. reusrename Jul 2013 #204

If Snowden had crimes to expose, I would back him 100%. randome Jul 2013 #206

This is the most important thing going on in the world. reusrename Jul 2013 #213

You don't think wholesale spying on the American people is something that needs to be exposed? Th1onein Jul 2013 #221

Yeah, right. Sure. Th1onein Jul 2013 #219

+1 Lady Freedom Returns Jul 2013 #96

Tyrannical federal security agencies and the craven citizens that grovel beneath them Maedhros Jul 2013 #105

No intelligence gathering is straw man caseymoz Jul 2013 #173

Glad someone gets it. Chan790 Jul 2013 #177

K&R B Calm Jul 2013 #247

they are unknowingly representing the 1% quinnox Jul 2013 #3

Never, where do you come up with 99% being on Snowden's side. You have a incorrect conclusion. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #12

You are correct. There are a lot of the 99% that bow down to the almighty authoritarian state. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #16

And apparently some bow down to Sniwden and his puppet masters. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #17

I bow down to the Constitution which you are so quickly wanting to give up because you let your rhett o rick Jul 2013 #68

If your statement is true about bowing to the Constitution, then abide by the Constitution. Just Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #108

I wonder if you unwavering law abiding righteousness would prevent you from running a stop rhett o rick Jul 2013 #113

you go Rick! LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #164

apologies to Rhett. Mea Culpa. KittyWampus Jul 2013 #25

Post 4 in your link is not by Rhett o Rick. go west young man Jul 2013 #38

Thanks so very much for setting me straight. I posted an apology to Rhett!. KittyWampus Jul 2013 #77

How about Pussy Riot, do they bow down to the authoritarian state flamingdem Jul 2013 #32

Does the fact that certain other countries are authoritarian make it OK to betray our Constitution JDPriestly Jul 2013 #42

We'll have to let the Russians worry about that. ronnie624 Jul 2013 #80

So put blinders on to make Snowden's choices okay? flamingdem Jul 2013 #82

I don't know what you mean. ronnie624 Jul 2013 #84

That reminds me of an ex.... ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #227

That's ridiculous... ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #226

Not unknowingly at all. The same names backing the same side on the same issues. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #235

"Fearmongering and intimidation are not indicative of a government acting in good faith." Marr Jul 2013 #4

You know what's strange? Cleita Jul 2013 #5

I've noticed that the ads have disappeared. OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #7

Yup nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #10

I get TIVO adds hueymahl Jul 2013 #39

I have been mostly to DU. If what you say is true, those ads would show up on all the news Cleita Jul 2013 #89

Cookies? So how do we get the Snog tee shirt ads back? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #119

The ads you get are based on YOUR google searches. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #69

You're only partly correct. ronnie624 Jul 2013 #81

I don't think so. Cleita Jul 2013 #85

I don't use google. I use duck, duck. Cleita Jul 2013 #86

Click on the ads! backscatter712 Jul 2013 #106

I do. The ones I'm interested in. Cleita Jul 2013 #122

That's fair, but I was suggesting clicking the RW ads, as a way of draining their resources! backscatter712 Jul 2013 #128

Didn't think of that. Good idea especially the bank and Cleita Jul 2013 #131

I get a lot of Game ads and I understand that, but for some reason Whisp Jul 2013 #127

I get some really nasty ads about Obama and Michele too! Cleita Jul 2013 #132

well written BlancheSplanchnik Jul 2013 #8

Yeah but after he exposed brush Jul 2013 #11

K & R Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #13

This information should not have been classified in the first place. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #43

Sorry, Snowden is not the one that gets to decide brush Jul 2013 #75

We the people should decide. Thanks to Snowden and other whistleblowers, we at least know JDPriestly Jul 2013 #146

Don't get me wrong brush Jul 2013 #159

Did he provide any information that would give aid and comfort to an enemy? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #200

WE are the ones who get to decide. It's called CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED. Th1onein Jul 2013 #222

You're wrong, he never approached any foreign countries about anything but amnesty. reusrename Jul 2013 #98

Ahhh . . . you don't know that anymore than I do brush Jul 2013 #137

Holy crap, your right. Imagine all the secrets they stole when Obama was there! reusrename Jul 2013 #138

Keep it serious please nt brush Jul 2013 #160

You think the Chinese are going to let an opportunity like that just slip away? reusrename Jul 2013 #165

What are you talking about? You not up on the story too well brush Jul 2013 #167

He spoke to the press. Not the Chinese government. reusrename Jul 2013 #237

Come on, now, Brush. You repeat a lie, and we call you on it, and you say shit like.... Th1onein Jul 2013 #223

It's not just the Chinese brush Jul 2013 #231

Snowden revealed that we were spying on everyone. Th1onein Jul 2013 #233

Like I said brush Jul 2013 #236

You can repeat yourself time and again, Brush. But the fact still remains: Th1onein Jul 2013 #239

I've said all along brush Jul 2013 #240

The treason charge is disputed and, IIRC, debunked. Th1onein Jul 2013 #241

I've posted that a couple of time before brush Jul 2013 #242

He was certainly of use to the American people and our democracy, that's for sure. Th1onein Jul 2013 #243

What YOU don't get. pnwmom Jul 2013 #14

Why is it okay to spy on innocent citizens of other countries? deurbano Jul 2013 #19

That's one point I made to someone recently... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #34

Who says we're "spying on innocent citizens of other countries"? pnwmom Jul 2013 #49

Quick! Someone tell us which number this is under the Surveillance Apologist Manifesto! Th1onein Jul 2013 #225

Do you think there are not any spies in the US? Do you think by accident the 9/11 Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #61

Sounds like some kind of conspiracy. reusrename Jul 2013 #102

Never said it was a conspiracy and personally don't think it was. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #107

Truth and reconciliation weren't really the issue after 9/11 bhikkhu Jul 2013 #18

I thought it was "covering everyone's asses". Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #47

Some apparently don't believe in whistleblowers. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #20

There is massive double standard when it comes to the noise Jul 2013 #217

Hear, hear. nt Mnemosyne Jul 2013 #21

K&R DeSwiss Jul 2013 #26

I always wondered what was going to happen back in 1989.... ReRe Jul 2013 #28

+1 hueymahl Jul 2013 #41

The Cold War was a scam.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #50

the main thing that the "Snowden is a traitor" crowd who happen to be Democrats don't get is that Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #29

If you see this debate in terms of 'crowds', you have already lost. randome Jul 2013 #63

+1000. Any thread starting off with the CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #94

What is it that you don't understand about the direct access? reusrename Jul 2013 #104

this article shows he was not wrong about direct access questionseverything Jul 2013 #144

I believe the Quantico Circuit is used for live surveillance. reusrename Jul 2013 #151

only live message content questionseverything Jul 2013 #156

Still no evidence, just this guy's word, same as Snowden's. randome Jul 2013 #170

Yet all the telecoms say that's not happening. randome Jul 2013 #171

Direct access is lawful compliance. It's the identical thing. reusrename Jul 2013 #201

Why would they deny turning over data authorized by a warrant? randome Jul 2013 #202

Snowden never walked anything back. That's false. reusrename Jul 2013 #207

So why didn't Snowden get evidence that message content is being gathered? randome Jul 2013 #214

You don't believe that all digital communications are being stored? reusrename Jul 2013 #220

What about the crowd that simply finds him uninteresting? quaker bill Jul 2013 #66

"the government has breached its trust with the public" GliderGuider Jul 2013 #70

Their OP's are all so annoyingly trite, boring, and provincial. "Blah blah blah, traitor, blah blah" Zorra Jul 2013 #74

"Blah blah blah freedom and liberty blah blah 1984 blah blah hero blah blah." nt AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #79

I know, its always the same stupid and boring talking points quinnox Jul 2013 #145

neither is obsessive secrecy.... mike_c Jul 2013 #83

This message was self-deleted by its author felix_numinous Jul 2013 #90

HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #92

I am new here what is K&R ? Mr.CT Jul 2013 #100

kick (the thread back to the top of the page) Kali Jul 2013 #142

There sure is a lot of tinfoil hattery in this thread shawn703 Jul 2013 #103

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty... polichick Jul 2013 #111

I just posted these snips from Harper's interview with Glen Greenwald... KoKo Jul 2013 #114

Such important truths - I'm disappointed that Pres. Obama... polichick Jul 2013 #117

Well fucking said! Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #126

What ProSense Jul 2013 #133

He doesn't have access or know all the keys. That is why torture is useless. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #161

No creon Jul 2013 #139

Well said, excellent point that cannot be ignored or underestimated Corruption Inc Jul 2013 #141

The Nixon treatment. Fearless Jul 2013 #149

K & R n/t truedelphi Jul 2013 #150

Regarding Nine Eleven - ample evidence existed prior truedelphi Jul 2013 #152

I Pledge Allegience to the...Woah Now Justa Hold On Ah say Ah say Hold On just a cotton pickin'... BornLooser Jul 2013 #162

I think they *do* get that YoungDemCA Jul 2013 #168

(snork)... warrprayer Jul 2013 #176

What the Pro-Snowden crowd doesn't get: Snowden is an admitted felonious criminal Tx4obama Jul 2013 #179

Agreed. Phlem Jul 2013 #209

What a shame - ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #228

The folks who go after him by and large have also gone after LGBT rights and activists Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #188

snowden is fine but you won't get a platform around him Vic Vinegar Jul 2013 #189

interesting, thanks flamingdem Jul 2013 #208

Nope, Sensenbrenner says NSA will get fixed much faster than you think. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #210

Absolute wrong.... ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #229

Oh boy, another Snowden Thread exlrrp Jul 2013 #190

Maybe this is where we separate the wheat from the refined white flour... MrMickeysMom Jul 2013 #191

I agree with all that you have said but I just arthritisR_US Jul 2013 #212

Paul Revere was a traitor. Coyotl Jul 2013 #224

Kicked! Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #249

However, the "Snowden is a hero crowd" shawn703 Jul 2013 #250