General Discussion

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

105. The argument is based on statistics.

Wed Jul 17, 2013, 09:22 PM

Jul 2013

For example, you can't get a CC license if you have a criminal record. So right off the bat, it's not at all surprising that CCers commit less crimes than than the population at large, which includes people who have a criminal record.

So the real question is do CCers commit more crimes than a similar group of people without CC licenses. There's not data to answer that question for sure. However we do know, from the literature, that:
-- gun ownership correlates positively with homicide rate
-- tighter gun laws correlate with less gun deaths
-- shall-issue laws are associated with an increase in crime rates
-- stand your gun laws are associated with an increase in non-justified homicide
-- people who live in households with guns are more likely to be homicide victims than those who don't.
-- etc.

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If you carry a concealed gun, you are the problem [View all] Hugabear Jul 2013 OP

..... Kurska Jul 2013 #1

LOL nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #6

^^^ +1 discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2013 #63

thank goodness you have no power to make that decision. galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #2

They can't get over their fear... Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #3

Carrying a gun is not murderous pintobean Jul 2013 #5

What else do you do with a concealed gun? Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #8

"A wild firing range appears!" Liberal Veteran Jul 2013 #11

Unarmed people are killed without notice all the time. pintobean Jul 2013 #12

Is there anyone out there who should NOT be able to "increase their chances of survival"? VOX Jul 2013 #22

"as long as they're doing it legally" pintobean Jul 2013 #42

Then they are indeed afraid... Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #34

We all have fear. pintobean Jul 2013 #108

Having fear and letting it dictate your actions are different things Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #115

Never start a food fight in a Mexican restaurant. nt. pintobean Jul 2013 #127

I propose that trying to increase one's chance of survival with concealed firearms DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #88

I've never seen someone shot or been shot at. Dash87 Jul 2013 #315

"Open up on random firing ranges that wander by?" ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #31

Well, that's what I see wandering by when using this ammunition: Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #145

That's some fine ammo. nt ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #146

I'm ready to kill at a moment's notice. Daemonaquila Jul 2013 #44

Seek help - nt Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #45

carrying a gun wouldn't make a difference? BainsBane Jul 2013 #54

A gun's very existence demands its own use... VOX Jul 2013 #17

Zman would never have taken off after Trayvon without a gun to bolster his courage. Hoyt Jul 2013 #19

There's only one person who knows pintobean Jul 2013 #48

It's true of him, and most who need a gun to venture out. Hoyt Jul 2013 #56

Don't you know guns are instruments of love? BainsBane Jul 2013 #15

What kind of coward is so fearful they can't go about their lives without a hidden weapon. leeroysphitz Jul 2013 #4

What about a person who has been raped or physically attacked in some other way? ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #32

Then they need help laundry_queen Jul 2013 #96

So, maybe we make some accommodations for rape victims, etc., but that's a small Hoyt Jul 2013 #110

Got it... Once you've been raped.... Pelican Jul 2013 #151

The 94% who don't carry, have rights too. Problem is most who carry are callous bigots, Hoyt Jul 2013 #169

And you base this on? Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #179

You might be an exception, but I've lived in NC and know the kind of folks who tend to tote. Hoyt Jul 2013 #184

More likely you know the kind Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #185

Yeah, we had another person who posted here -- also an "instructor" -- that used to say same things. Hoyt Jul 2013 #186

What you believe is irrelevant to what the law is Hoyt. nt. premium Jul 2013 #189

That's what we are talking about, Premium, bigoted gun laws that need to be changed. Hoyt Jul 2013 #200

Female advertising in re; firearms is quite common. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #190

From right wing gun sites, yeah. But manufacturers tend to play up to male self-esteem issues. Hoyt Jul 2013 #199

I just did a quick google of "Female advertising for guns." There's quite a lot of them in general. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #202

Finally, a gunner who admits that most gun "enthusiasts" tend to be right wing (hence bigots). Hoyt Jul 2013 #205

Misrepresenting what someone posted again Hoyt? premium Jul 2013 #206

Seriously? Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #213

I think you meant to reply to Hoyt. nt. premium Jul 2013 #214

Nope Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #217

Ahh, ok, I get it now. premium Jul 2013 #219

You gun nuts can't tell if you post to right person, yet you are prepared to shoot on city streets. Hoyt Jul 2013 #247

No. 1 Hoyt, I'm not a gun nut, premium Jul 2013 #254

Too bad your fellow gungeoneers don't feel the same. Maybe you should talk to them rather Hoyt Jul 2013 #257

Sorry, not my place to tell others premium Jul 2013 #260

RIF Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #258

You know *only* the kind of folks you've encountered-good, bad, or indifferent. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #288

10s of millions of callous bigots... Pelican Jul 2013 #183

You cannot possibly know how most of a group that numbers in the millions thinks. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #289

Well your buddy Decoy says the majority are right wingers -- and they are definitely bigots. Hoyt Jul 2013 #302

Decoy didn't make that claim-and if he did, it's an argument from authority friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #304

Misrepresenting again, eh Hoyt? premium Jul 2013 #305

That's my question... OneGrassRoot Jul 2013 #195

Tazers don't work worth a shit premium Jul 2013 #197

There is a reason cops don't carry just tasers Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #204

Tell me Lee-Lee, how often would a normal citizen need to shoot someone at more than 15 fee on Hoyt Jul 2013 #209

There are lots of instances actually Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #216

I'm all for pepper spray. Guns, not so much since you can't take that bullet back. Hoyt Jul 2013 #218

Happens alot huh? premium Jul 2013 #221

Saw lots when I was a deputy Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #233

I did too, but Hoyt's talking premium Jul 2013 #238

I am glad you can predict the future behavior of all criminals Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #225

I suspect you could have handled without "drawing," but hey if you carry a gun why not use it. Hoyt Jul 2013 #227

Now you are a self defense expert too.. Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #231

He'll tell you to throw a can of beans or use a bicycle tire to defend yourself. nt. premium Jul 2013 #235

You ought to try it, Premium, rather than your guns. Hoyt Jul 2013 #248

That's funny Hoyt, premium Jul 2013 #255

I do too, and see no need to spend my life preparing to shoot someone a la Zimmerman. Hoyt Jul 2013 #256

Interesting, in post #218 above it was a knife, now it's a gun. Hoyt Jul 2013 #237

My error Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #245

From this expert, a staff is quite effective against one wielding a knife. Not as "sexy" as a gun, Hoyt Jul 2013 #246

A staff? Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #251

Works for some sarisataka Jul 2013 #264

Let's not forget this guy. premium Jul 2013 #271

Once again, you tout mandatory "abstinence-only" instruction. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #292

These "in-your-face" abstinence-only instructors would be paid, amirite? friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #294

Many here purport to have telepsychological powers. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #290

Thank you Lee-Lee premium Jul 2013 #212

Well, that kind of stuff doesn't happen often to John Q gun toter on the street. But, it's nice to Hoyt Jul 2013 #220

Not fanning the fear, premium Jul 2013 #222

I admit, never had job of busting small time pot growers in national forests, but I've walked many Hoyt Jul 2013 #226

Small time pot growers? premium Jul 2013 #228

Tell me about it Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #232

Maybe people who don't carry guns don't want to be a victim either Major Nikon Jul 2013 #203

My bottom line is my family. leeroysphitz Jul 2013 #240

Another type of coward... pipi_k Jul 2013 #33

Correct. Incitatus Jul 2013 #55

Are you sure they are "the problem"? Socal31 Jul 2013 #7

Do you have stats they aren't a problem, or are setting us up for trouble Hoyt Jul 2013 #142

Yes, I have "Future stats" Socal31 Jul 2013 #153

With some issues you have to use commonsense, rather than stats. Hoyt Jul 2013 #168

Because those pesky stats keep messing up the narrative. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #297

Do you care to show me stats indicating proliferation of guns will not cause issues in future? Hoyt Jul 2013 #301

I can't show stats that you wont be conked on the head by a meteorite, either. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #303

When empirical evidence contradicts "common sense", then... Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #300

Voltaire would have scoffed reading post #168 friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #306

So much for that whole Enlightenment thing... friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #307

LMAO - like strapping lethal weapons to your body is enlightenment. Hoyt Jul 2013 #309

Probably a lot more, unfortunately. The NRA has spoken. MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #9

bullshit... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #10

yup, a country full of gun nuts is fucking bullshit Skittles Jul 2013 #14

Since half the USA are gun nuts, the other half decided to get ARMED LaydeeBug Jul 2013 #272

yup - that is the NRA's wet dream Skittles Jul 2013 #310

The NRA's wet dream is the USA's bleak reality LaydeeBug Jul 2013 #313

Why is my donco Jul 2013 #13

So you admit to being a law-breaking BainsBane Jul 2013 #16

sure do. donco Jul 2013 #18

No need BainsBane Jul 2013 #21

Who said it was donco Jul 2013 #25

all the gungeoneers constantly go on BainsBane Jul 2013 #38

Its good donco Jul 2013 #70

Why should that matter to me? BainsBane Jul 2013 #86

Your the one donco Jul 2013 #114

You didn't make that claim BainsBane Jul 2013 #116

OK we got my breaking donco Jul 2013 #124

Actually, carrying concealed without a permit is only a misdemeanor in most jurisdictions. LAGC Jul 2013 #118

Please explain why you feel the need to be packing a gat... VOX Jul 2013 #24

I am a person who has had a random stranger attempt to carjack her in the past Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #36

Zman, Loughner, Holmes, Stawiki, NRA prez' son, etc., were all legal. Hoyt Jul 2013 #23

I can see the Autocorrect :-) FunkyLeprechaun Jul 2013 #161

Thanks. Sometimes I get gum or gin for gun. Hoyt Jul 2013 #164

most likely sweetapogee Jul 2013 #180

Damn Skippy! nt MrScorpio Jul 2013 #20

So what percentage of murders are committed by people carrying concealed guns? hack89 Jul 2013 #26

How many dead children are acceptable to you? Hugabear Jul 2013 #27

So you have no clue do you? hack89 Jul 2013 #28

Well then I suppose the solution is more guns Hugabear Jul 2013 #29

Now you are just being silly. nt hack89 Jul 2013 #119

not silly.... ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #166

Here you go BainsBane Jul 2013 #60

Which doesn't answer the question hack89 Jul 2013 #120

a greater percentage than from people who don't carry guns BainsBane Jul 2013 #130

If so many are looking for trouble hack89 Jul 2013 #162

Not many involve actual conceal carry it seems. aikoaiko Jul 2013 #30

No fair confusing the hand-wringers with facts. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #37

over 500 killings by CCW holders BainsBane Jul 2013 #39

Perhaps, but how many of them were actually carrying concealed when they committed aikoaiko Jul 2013 #79

All were CC holders BainsBane Jul 2013 #83

500 killings over 8 years really isnt that much.... aikoaiko Jul 2013 #98

So those lives don't count? BainsBane Jul 2013 #103

But 500 homicides our of 150,000 shooting deaths over 5 years... aikoaiko Jul 2013 #117

See this BainsBane Jul 2013 #107

How about subtracting the sucides from that list? nt hack89 Jul 2013 #125

Oh right. The lives of suicide victims don't count BainsBane Jul 2013 #131

The OP is about concealed carry and murder. Please stay on topic hack89 Jul 2013 #163

Over 120 of thoe were pure suicides. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #170

They have to pad their numbers some way. nt hack89 Jul 2013 #172

Utter horseshit. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #35

then provide evidence of that BainsBane Jul 2013 #41

Nonsense. They are only verifiably less likely to be convicted. Robb Jul 2013 #43

An example? Useless. A verifiable statistical body? Knock yourself out. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #49

Concealed carry permit holders are excellent at beating the rap. Robb Jul 2013 #51

Didn't think you could answer the actual question. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #68

8 times less likely to be arrested, 5 times less likely to be convicted. Robb Jul 2013 #106

That study was flawed. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #173

You've been given evidence but choose to ignore it BainsBane Jul 2013 #61

And *you* ignore the fact that you're dealing with a group of +10 million friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #296

Teh stupid... DanTex Jul 2013 #53

Are you saying Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #87

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #92

No Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #99

The argument is based on statistics. DanTex Jul 2013 #105

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #40

"Yeah, you would, if you were informed and sincere." Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #47

And that wraps up yet another culture war chapter. Thanks. Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #148

When the thousands of people with illegal guns stop killing joeglow3 Jul 2013 #46

More guns to stop killing... Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #52

Ask trayvon Martin how your theory worked out joeglow3 Jul 2013 #58

And if there had been no guns? Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #62

I want to be able to defend myself joeglow3 Jul 2013 #65

So until you feel 100% safe you want the right to kill when you are afraid... Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #73

Resorting to personal attacks says a lot joeglow3 Jul 2013 #76

I'm not attacking you... Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #90

I am not an arrogant asshole joeglow3 Jul 2013 #94

I don't look down on gun nuts... I feel sorry for them having to live with all that fear Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #111

Why do you assume only someone living in constant fear joeglow3 Jul 2013 #128

We are discussing those who do the concealed carry Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #132

try to think like a gun humping coward, Ohio Joe Skittles Jul 2013 #320

Bad Choices warrant46 Jul 2013 #178

It's a time-honored business model. Robb Jul 2013 #59

Exactly, it's all about corporate profits BainsBane Jul 2013 #64

Hmmm since you don't seem to be replying much may I suggest these images: The Straight Story Jul 2013 #50

I made my point Hugabear Jul 2013 #97

Well, I dunno The Straight Story Jul 2013 #113

The statistics say you folks not carrying guns are a bigger problem... Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #57

What is your source? BainsBane Jul 2013 #66

The charts are from "thetruthaboutguns.com" DanTex Jul 2013 #69

and she refused to read an article from Mother Jones BainsBane Jul 2013 #71

Ohh, I read them Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #74

That you justify it doesn't mean you know about it BainsBane Jul 2013 #80

I cite all kinds of sources Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #85

You hid your source BainsBane Jul 2013 #91

Your post is all emotionally driven Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #95

If you don't plan on killing BainsBane Jul 2013 #102

Maybe English is not your first language Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #112

Why are you so afraid? Nevernose Jul 2013 #122

The numbers they are based on are accurate Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #75

Of course they are! They came from a right-wing gun blog! In a nice bar chart! DanTex Jul 2013 #82

LOL. So you get your research from "thetruthaboutguns.com"? DanTex Jul 2013 #67

They cite the statistics back to a NYT article, so the numbers come from there Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #72

Mother Jones has a cleared history of skewed statistics, by "thetruthaboutguns.com" is legit? DanTex Jul 2013 #77

No Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #81

You checked them yourself? Really? Ooh, I'm impressed! DanTex Jul 2013 #84

Attacking a source? BainsBane Jul 2013 #78

But we do have Zimmermans in our streets. Hoyt Jul 2013 #165

The exception is not what you should base policy on Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #171

Bigots carrying guns is a totally different issue from social programs. Hoyt Jul 2013 #174

hit.nail.head Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #263

They use Zimmerman like anti-abortionists use Kermit Gosnell. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2013 #299

MMM graphs & charts olddots Jul 2013 #211

I don't carry, but I'm very comfortable with those that legally do. badtoworse Jul 2013 #89

RKBA does not have to mean concealed carry. For many years it did not. n-t Logical Jul 2013 #93

Marriage does not have to mean same sex, for many years it didn't Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #100

RKBA is not impacted without CC. n-t Logical Jul 2013 #104

I agree. The point in my mind is making major changes in law over one incident badtoworse Jul 2013 #101

I agree. NaturalHigh Jul 2013 #249

Guns kill people donja know. ileus Jul 2013 #109

ROFL krispos42 Jul 2013 #121

hundreds a year BainsBane Jul 2013 #134

The illegal drug trade directly results in thousands of deaths a year. krispos42 Jul 2013 #135

The OP is about Zimmerman BainsBane Jul 2013 #138

And you're responding to ME krispos42 Jul 2013 #140

Such a strange disconnect BainsBane Jul 2013 #143

Your comment was based on your excessive extrapolation of my comment krispos42 Jul 2013 #147

You're using world wide stats now? ieoeja Jul 2013 #223

Try this out krispos42 Jul 2013 #234

Hunter is in a bad mood. He will take guns from cowardly idiots, and he will not give them back. hunter Jul 2013 #123

Watch out! Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #126

Mr. Lincoln Arc Welder is hungry. hunter Jul 2013 #129

Riiiiiight. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #210

Like this guy. hunter Jul 2013 #215

Ooooo! He's gonna do it with a computer, too! Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #149

Mr. Lincoln Arc Welder is hungry. hunter Jul 2013 #191

Ooooooooooh, an internet tough guy. premium Jul 2013 #188

Mr. Lincoln Arc Welder is hungry. hunter Jul 2013 #192

Uh Huh. premium Jul 2013 #194

post 196 hunter Jul 2013 #198

And......................................? premium Jul 2013 #201

CC permits are a big problem, but it does not follow that cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #133

Zimmerman is a paranoid cop wannabe LittleBlue Jul 2013 #136

If that is the case sarisataka Jul 2013 #137

Is it legal to bring a gun into a public library? BainsBane Jul 2013 #139

Yes, libraries are legal sarisataka Jul 2013 #141

"to choose to bring a gun to such a scene is the height of stupidity" BainsBane Jul 2013 #144

In the context of sarisataka Jul 2013 #152

You needed a gun at a library? Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #154

Nope, not at all sarisataka Jul 2013 #155

So you risk an accident just on the off chance of being able to kill someone? Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #156

I have been around firearms personally and professionally sarisataka Jul 2013 #157

You were playing with a child... In a library... With a loaded gun... You consider this responsible? Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #158

Handing a child a book is hardly playing sarisataka Jul 2013 #159

Yes... Playing kickball with children and a loaded gun is irresponsible... Was that serious? Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #160

He never said he was playing with a child with a loaded gun, premium Jul 2013 #193

Yes- serious, now read the whole thing sarisataka Jul 2013 #250

Yeah, I read the whole thing... Cop... Loaded gun... Playing kickball with children... I got it Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #266

I was thinking you had misunderstood sarisataka Jul 2013 #270

The way I look at this... Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #284

While not something I would choose to do sarisataka Jul 2013 #293

Well, all this fear-projection by the controllers has made me sleepy. Night y'all. Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #150

73 CC deaths a year, seven years, .00002% of gun crime, 1 : 4,794,520 odds against. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #167

That's probably enough to drive the Heart Of Gold pintobean Jul 2013 #175

Comparably: Same odds of 7 card Straight Flush, probability of 0.00000021% per person. n/t Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #187

What are odds you need a gun on a typical city street? Hoyt Jul 2013 #224

I know the bet. pintobean Jul 2013 #239

1 in 514,147. Ten times more likely than death by concealed carry. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #252

I suppose if you are doing illegal things in high crime areas. Rather than preparing to shoot Hoyt Jul 2013 #259

Nah, that's just the countrywide average for both stats you asked after. n/t Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #267

There's your problem, you should not use countrywise averages when determining if you need a gun to Hoyt Jul 2013 #269

There's YOUR problem premium Jul 2013 #273

Did not intend to respond to you or Rand Paul. Hoyt Jul 2013 #279

Rand Paul? premium Jul 2013 #280

LOVE IT! n/t ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2013 #243

Precious, my precious.... JimDandy Jul 2013 #176

NO. We are part of the solution. Legal concealed carry saves innocent lives. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #177

Sure. Trayvon's murder is now counted as a gun saving Zman's worthless life. Hoyt Jul 2013 #182

Missed by a mile wercal Jul 2013 #181

You can read how fearful these gun owners are in their replies to this thread. hunter Jul 2013 #196

Only if you think "telepsychoanalysis" has the slightest value. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #208

I don't have a CCW permit, Jenoch Jul 2013 #207

Flamebait. And typical. Bake Jul 2013 #229

Yes and somehow we're the hysterical and emotional ones Just Saying Jul 2013 #230

Anyone calling CCW permit holders "part of the problem" is pretty obviously... Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #261

Average what? Just Saying Jul 2013 #265

You don't have that right out in public or private businesses premium Jul 2013 #274

I live in a state where private business can and do make it illegal to carry on their property. Just Saying Jul 2013 #278

Same here in Oregon...and that's a very good law. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #281

Anything is possible Just Saying Jul 2013 #285

Average Americans, obviously. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #275

I can look at your and other's "evidence" Just Saying Jul 2013 #282

*shrug* Suit yourself. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #283

And I'll continue to not live in fear Just Saying Jul 2013 #286

Me, too! Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #287

Anyone who carries a concealed weapon is a potential murderer, IMO. Apophis Jul 2013 #236

So is most anyone else. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #241

Anyone who owns a car is a potential drunk driver, premium Jul 2013 #242

which reminds me of an idea I have sweetapogee Jul 2013 #276

Hmmmmmmmm. premium Jul 2013 #277

Carrying a gun raises the potential to be a killer. Apophis Jul 2013 #291

exactly! sweetapogee Jul 2013 #311

Your first statement is true. Your second is nonsense. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #314

The only reason anyone would carry a gun on their person would be to kill. Apophis Jul 2013 #316

I already explained why that's wrong. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #317

The point of my post obviously went over your head. Apophis Jul 2013 #318

Not even close. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #319

Exactly!!! The problem isn't the people who rob, kidnap, rape and murder other people, hughee99 Jul 2013 #244

^^^I saw what you did there.^^^ premium Jul 2013 #262

Huzzah! jpak Jul 2013 #253

Not in Sanford, Florida, where the sidewalk makes it a fair fight. LaydeeBug Jul 2013 #268

Why don't you work on the gun violence in Chicago rl6214 Jul 2013 #295

The problem is in Chicago? Not anywhre an unarmed teen is murdered? Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #308

If concealed carry is "the problem", hughee99 Jul 2013 #312

Stereotype much? Omnith Jul 2013 #298

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #321

Blatant sexism always does SO much for an argument. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2013 #322

Paranoia is a sickness B Calm Jul 2013 #323