General Discussion

Pholus

(4,062 posts)

202. Let's explore that for a minute, hmmmm?

Thu Jul 18, 2013, 01:54 PM

Jul 2013

Because it seems like we're simply spending all of the diplomatic capital we have for no identifiable return. Why are so many people so afraid? Is it that they have something to hide? Cause that's why we're not supposed to be nervous about our secrets being stolen.

U.S. Is Pressing Latin Americans to Reject Snowden
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/world/americas/us-is-pressing-latin-americans-to-reject-snowden.html

Russia, China reject US pressure over Snowden
http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_23533848/russia-china-reject-us-pressure-over-snowden

or general anyone who messes with us...

We certainly feel that anyone – any country granting asylum to Mr. Snowden would create grave difficulties in our bilateral relationship, and that’s a message that we’ve conveyed publicly and, of course, privately in conversations as well.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2013/07/211603.htm

Then of course there was the Morales DEBACLE

US admits contact with other countries over potential Snowden flights – as it happened
US Ambassador to Austria Responsible for False Claim Snowden Was on Bolivian Leader’s Plane: Report
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-ambassador-to-austria-responsible-for-false-claim-snowden-was-on-bolivian-leaders-plane-report/5342027

This final link has a quote has the analyst agreeing with my own opinion on this...the manhunt is merely a boondoggle.

The money quote:

“The Americans are exhausting themselves chasing after Snowden, and their failure to obtain his extradition shows how much the US is struggling to impose its will on the international stage,” Snégaroff said.

Snowden's asylum request gives a boost to US critics
http://www.france24.com/en/20130624-snowden-espionage-asylum-usa-civil-liberties-ecuador-cuba-russia

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Snowden has no crediblity, and deserves no thanks. [View all] ProSense Jul 2013 OP

You are wrong. The growing backlash against NSA surveillance cali Jul 2013 #1

+100 nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #2

You're missed the point. Snowden could have provoked the same discussion pnwmom Jul 2013 #3

Ok, how should he have done it? N-t Logical Jul 2013 #11

He could have restricted himself to releasing documents related to INTERNAL US surveillance. pnwmom Jul 2013 #19

I would be happy if China shut off all trade with America. kentuck Jul 2013 #24

If you ARE concerned about jobs in the US, then you would be concerned pnwmom Jul 2013 #31

We may even see more manufacturing jobs in the US n/t whttevrr Jul 2013 #33

You’re kidding, right? … 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2013 #296

Not as effective. The outrage made this a story. n-t Logical Jul 2013 #35

I think it would have been MORE effective, pnwmom Jul 2013 #40

Most people do not care. The fucking NSA are the bad ones here. n-t Logical Jul 2013 #43

Exactly Aerows Jul 2013 #59

It would not even have made the evening news. nt tsuki Jul 2013 #68

That's obviously wrong. He DID make the news in a big way when he released pnwmom Jul 2013 #79

Only because it was an international story picked up by journalists tsuki Jul 2013 #298

The initial story only dealt with that power point presentation and his claims of pnwmom Jul 2013 #307

I don't think that you can easily separate spying on Americans from spying on foreigners. totodeinhere Jul 2013 #130

Snowden could have. He could have stopped his releases with the power point pnwmom Jul 2013 #135

And the same person who was behind outing Valerie Plame, war criminal Dick Cheney, has also totodeinhere Jul 2013 #147

Thanks for pointing that out. 7962 Jul 2013 #214

codswallop. No other whistleblower got attention focused the way cali Jul 2013 #137

He had the world's attention when he released the power point about internal US surveillance. pnwmom Jul 2013 #141

Don't forget he gave information to a German publication that could have put NSA employees in danger arely staircase Jul 2013 #282

+ another Scuba Jul 2013 #6

That ProSense Jul 2013 #18

It has everything to do with your point Aerows Jul 2013 #51

It has everything to do with your claim cali Jul 2013 #62

I guess ProSense Jul 2013 #80

whether you buy into or not is irrelevant cali Jul 2013 #86

What? ProSense Jul 2013 #91

Prosense, you're calling Snowden, "a delusional and self-important clown"???? chimpymustgo Jul 2013 #99

Yes. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #107

You must lack an irony gene. nt laundry_queen Jul 2013 #114

No, it's my opinion of him, and you don't have to agree. ProSense Jul 2013 #212

And I'm allowed to have the opinion that your statement is highly ironic. nt laundry_queen Jul 2013 #241

You need to look up the word irony. You are comedy gold in the same way that Bush was. n/t xocet Jul 2013 #115

It's absolutely hilarious Aerows Jul 2013 #112

Exactly Capt. Obvious Jul 2013 #134

Snowden is "a delusional and self important clown" Progressive dog Jul 2013 #271

What!?!? Phlem Jul 2013 #50

+1000 tsuki Jul 2013 #57

yeah, well, but then all those links would have to go to link heaven stupidicus Jul 2013 #145

The near pathological hatred some have for the man has me even more curious Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #182

With some people everything is ether black or white zeemike Jul 2013 #231

Snowden is really a sore spot, huh? polichick Jul 2013 #4

.... DeSwiss Jul 2013 #179

He knocked the halo off kilter a tad and they went ballistic. Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #184

Speaking of no credibility... NuclearDem Jul 2013 #5

In any other sense, he would be considered a traitor liberal N proud Jul 2013 #7

Big ol' surprise Aerows Jul 2013 #56

It how and where they were exposed that is wrong liberal N proud Jul 2013 #63

Any many can't rationalize Aerows Jul 2013 #83

; liberal N proud Jul 2013 #158

If our country is conducting illegal activities according to international law, totodeinhere Jul 2013 #161

Speculation "may be doing" n/t liberal N proud Jul 2013 #185

LOL, another Carter counter? You are losing the Snowden fight pretty.... Logical Jul 2013 #8

Vested interest? whttevrr Jul 2013 #9

That same person obsessed over Assange's rape charges. nt redgreenandblue Jul 2013 #13

ohhhh... whttevrr Jul 2013 #16

What the fuck are you talking about? n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #22

You know full well "what the fuck" that person is talking about Aerows Jul 2013 #61

Bullshit. ProSense Jul 2013 #69

Oh my Aerows Jul 2013 #76

Still having trouble finding the "trash thread" feature, huh? ProSense Jul 2013 #81

You are trashing your own thread Aerows Jul 2013 #85

As far as this subject and your focus... MrMickeysMom Jul 2013 #300

Delusional and livid is no way to live DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #106

I love how she insinuates that I'm some other poster Aerows Jul 2013 #126

OK ProSense Jul 2013 #143

LMAO! Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #206

Good morning, ProSense. How are you feeling today? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #10

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #12

+100 nt 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #88

Ever thought about therapy for this obsession of yours? I hope you keep posting because byeya Jul 2013 #14

13 links? New record? And most to your own posts! n-t Logical Jul 2013 #15

12 of the 13 link back to DU posts... whttevrr Jul 2013 #21

LOL, good point! n-t Logical Jul 2013 #38

Always makes me think of these things... QC Jul 2013 #42

Bwahahahahahahah!!!! darkangel218 Jul 2013 #44

OMG! Puglover Jul 2013 #138

In case it is: Booz Allen , The Carlyle Group, Clapper, Snowden, NSA think Jul 2013 #100

You forgot: NWO, new world order, one religion, pakistan, malala yousafzai, black pope, satan, whttevrr Jul 2013 #109

Blackwater, Caci, Monsanto, GE, Goldmann Sachs, Halliburton, News Corps think Jul 2013 #124

Blackwater! How could I have forgotten that one... whttevrr Jul 2013 #127

Academi think Jul 2013 #128

And... whttevrr Jul 2013 #140

Red McCombs. No shit... think Jul 2013 #152

Chairman of the Board for Academi... whttevrr Jul 2013 #156

Ya, that's tough to overlook think Jul 2013 #157

McCombs started Clear channel too?: think Jul 2013 #187

oops... whttevrr Jul 2013 #195

That's some heavy stink... think Jul 2013 #213

Links are bad, m'kay!!!11 tridim Jul 2013 #67

Links to your own posts Aerows Jul 2013 #70

It's like saying "Because I said so" whttevrr Jul 2013 #77

Edward Snowden is the hero of a grateful nation, riding to warn us of danger and quinnox Jul 2013 #17

Ah, Paul Reversky shows up in Moscow flamingdem Jul 2013 #37

Paul Reversky... lmao! DontTreadOnMe Jul 2013 #129

+ a billion. My favorite are the posters that apparently hate Prosense Number23 Jul 2013 #315

Oh crap... Wait Wut Jul 2013 #188

LOL again. tridim Jul 2013 #73

I'm sure if you had something better Aerows Jul 2013 #92

Now, now. It's not like they haven't tried: woo me with science Jul 2013 #144

OMFG Aerows Jul 2013 #149

A lil help Cher? hootinholler Jul 2013 #251

It's from the ludicrous post Aerows Jul 2013 #256

I have a graphic for those situations hootinholler Jul 2013 #261

lmao!!!! darkangel218 Jul 2013 #262

Tell Obama to pardon Ed Snowden. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #20

Yes, if the president would get on the people's side of this issue... polichick Jul 2013 #66

From the department of Aerows Jul 2013 #23

ROFL!!! darkangel218 Jul 2013 #27

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #25

You're ProSense Jul 2013 #34

Thanks for linking to that! DesMoinesDem Jul 2013 #41

Ha! Right! DMD has had posts hidden! NuclearDem Jul 2013 #46

Thanks for the link, Gives, DesMoinesDem more credibilty than Prosense. bahrbearian Jul 2013 #52

Ouch... that's gonna leave a mark. whttevrr Jul 2013 #58

I think DMD is my new hero. Maven Jul 2013 #113

OP #748 progressoid Jul 2013 #26

This post is like a Jackson Pollock Capt. Obvious Jul 2013 #28

Something seems to be wrong with DU's spam filter. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #29

+10 RC Jul 2013 #219

LOL-- you know who has REALLY lost all credibility...? mike_c Jul 2013 #30

for the first time G_j Jul 2013 #32

blah blah blah blah blah.....etc bowens43 Jul 2013 #36

Could you perhaps stamp your feet for emphasis too? Pholus Jul 2013 #39

For those ProSense Jul 2013 #45

Oh, go make yourself useful. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #47

LOL! ProSense Jul 2013 #49

Another one of your anti-Snowden spam threads. Apophis Jul 2013 #48

Someone ProSense Jul 2013 #53

Are you going here again? Aerows Jul 2013 #136

Some of the responses in this thread are SOLID GOLD! City Lights Jul 2013 #54

I don't know why but Snowden makes me think of Chuggo. bravenak Jul 2013 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author darkangel218 Jul 2013 #65

Hey guys! Snowden is a PHONY! NuclearDem Jul 2013 #75

He still makes me think of Chuggo. bravenak Jul 2013 #87

Are you mad, bro? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #93

Never. bravenak Jul 2013 #98

How I have never seen this before! zappaman Jul 2013 #292

R#9 & K n/t UTUSN Jul 2013 #60

For the lolz, right? whttevrr Jul 2013 #64

I don't know which side of the Great Divide your lolz fall on. My rec is agreement with the o.p. UTUSN Jul 2013 #72

yikes... whttevrr Jul 2013 #82

Wasn't this post, like, 100 times yesterday? mindwalker_i Jul 2013 #71

Watch out ProSense shawn703 Jul 2013 #74

wow. that's what you call impressive denial cali Jul 2013 #84

What I find interesting shawn703 Jul 2013 #103

ProSense is one of DU's most valuable assets. AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #108

You have only been on DU what, less than 10 days and you're already dissing us? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #150

On the contrary, I'm complimenting one of DU's most prolific and trustworthy fixtures. nt AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #159

Fixtures?? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #162

I disagree. totodeinhere Jul 2013 #193

And who would know that better Union Scribe Jul 2013 #265

If this is the way you welcome all of your new members... AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #283

because the op's posts on snowden have become somewhat of a cali Jul 2013 #118

amazing how the drone killers get a complete pass in all these discussions ent it? nt msongs Jul 2013 #122

I think she is fooling less and less people all the time. The growing number of totodeinhere Jul 2013 #198

Because ProSense tends to make extraordinarily repetitive threads with selective quotes NuclearDem Jul 2013 #123

Wait ProSense Jul 2013 #154

Does light bend around you? NuclearDem Jul 2013 #208

Well said. nt Puglover Jul 2013 #246

Just 4 more and this one will open too Capt. Obvious Jul 2013 #252

what i find interesting is the irony in your post.. frylock Jul 2013 #131

I wasn't admonishing anybody shawn703 Jul 2013 #223

What I find fascinating Android3.14 Jul 2013 #142

It's not about Snowden!!1! Scurrilous Jul 2013 #299

The ACLU, Amnesty International, Daniel Ellsworth, Human Rights Watch and the UN disagree. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #78

Snowden's ProSense Jul 2013 #97

Let's explore that for a minute, hmmmm? Pholus Jul 2013 #202

Of course many of his asylum requests have been denied. A lot of countries do not have the totodeinhere Jul 2013 #203

I think I'll stick with the ACLU's own assessment of what it stands for. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #215

Were did the rebellion go? Tugboat Jul 2013 #89

Ok. So what new safeguards should we establish for NSA surveillance? last1standing Jul 2013 #90

This is not a solution thread it is a distraction thread... whttevrr Jul 2013 #95

Welcome ProSense Jul 2013 #110

But I've been watching you post the same thing... whttevrr Jul 2013 #117

an enthusiastic +1 cali Jul 2013 #119

Wait, ProSense Jul 2013 #148

No problem with criticism... It's the repitition Ad nauseum that gets old. whttevrr Jul 2013 #170

Deal with it. ProSense Jul 2013 #177

Yup... whttevrr Jul 2013 #189

Oh ProSense Jul 2013 #199

Absolutely! whttevrr Jul 2013 #211

Wait ProSense Jul 2013 #217

You got owned Aerows Jul 2013 #259

So do you have an opinion on my post? last1standing Jul 2013 #121

It's pretty amusing and predictable which posts will be answered Matariki Jul 2013 #248

You are hard to stand up to Aerows Jul 2013 #260

PsyOpsALiscious! hootinholler Jul 2013 #94

I think he is turning into your obsession. Rex Jul 2013 #96

No ProSense Jul 2013 #101

Ya you do seem to have a cult following now. Rex Jul 2013 #102

Yours ain't an easy job... polichick Jul 2013 #104

To be fair they also try to smear the characters of Union Scribe Jul 2013 #268

Agree to disagree nt Taverner Jul 2013 #105

I would like DevonRex Jul 2013 #200

It's a touchy issue Taverner Jul 2013 #245

Yes, thanks. DevonRex Jul 2013 #250

I hate Snowden Ichingcarpenter Jul 2013 #111

ProSense - whenever I see your threads Iliyah Jul 2013 #116

We will give that the thought it deserves Android3.14 Jul 2013 #120

Oh, give it a rest Warpy Jul 2013 #125

Question ProSense Jul 2013 #146

"Criticism of Snowden." NuclearDem Jul 2013 #151

I would criticize the posts Warpy Jul 2013 #153

Ah, character assassination again. Le Taz Hot Jul 2013 #132

............. snappyturtle Jul 2013 #133

ROFLMAO!!! Le Taz Hot Jul 2013 #191

Caught me laughing too! I figured with the bootie photo upthread this snappyturtle Jul 2013 #205

Debate on Senate floor in December on Leahy, Wyden and Merkel amendments: DevonRex Jul 2013 #139

seriously? you think Pat Leahy failed on purpose? got any more ct theories? cali Jul 2013 #169

I already stated why I think he intended it to fail. In my post. Did you read it? DevonRex Jul 2013 #197

why yes, yes I did and I think you're full of... nonsense. cali Jul 2013 #229

Well, DevonRex Jul 2013 #254

I'd like to take this opportunity Aerows Jul 2013 #155

So you went from not trashing the thread as you declared to making a disingenuous claim? ProSense Jul 2013 #160

How many people do you think I am? Aerows Jul 2013 #167

Oh brother, I mistook you for another poster in the thread. ProSense Jul 2013 #172

You got your butt handed to you Aerows Jul 2013 #181

No, ProSense Jul 2013 #192

You mean the three different people Aerows Jul 2013 #204

Hmmm...then that means I was wrong. Rex Jul 2013 #165

Clearly, ProSense Jul 2013 #174

I don't even know what to think Aerows Jul 2013 #186

sure he does stupidicus Jul 2013 #163

SSDD nt Earth_First Jul 2013 #164

Since you've ignored my repeated questions about what to do about surveillance. last1standing Jul 2013 #166

Put on your flame suit shenmue Jul 2013 #168

Ah, the song of the Blue-linked ProPagandist. MNBrewer Jul 2013 #171

Is it called Jurrasic Park? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #173

Ah, the lame chants of the "Blue-linked" obsessed. ProSense Jul 2013 #175

We are aware of how you feel on the matter. Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #176

what do phorbs taste like, sheep? Blue Palasky Jul 2013 #178

Fun game: Follow the ProSense links! DesMoinesDem Jul 2013 #180

Ooh, link math. ProSense Jul 2013 #194

That's why I stopped clicking on her links some time ago. n/t totodeinhere Jul 2013 #207

8 hops frylock Jul 2013 #227

It's like a mobius strip. nt Union Scribe Jul 2013 #269

K & R SunSeeker Jul 2013 #183

You've made your opinion painfully clear. blackspade Jul 2013 #190

Bah! they're just constitutional rights, on a ... .... piece of paper as der fuhrer bushy said Divine Discontent Jul 2013 #240

Where was Greenwald in 2006 when Al Gore gave his speech to the American Consitiution Society? stlsaxman Jul 2013 #196

Here: DeSwiss Jul 2013 #218

Finishing up his book. DesMoinesDem Jul 2013 #220

where were you? frylock Jul 2013 #230

.... DeSwiss Jul 2013 #201

? ProSense Jul 2013 #210

Irony. /nt Marr Jul 2013 #209

Don't use that word around ProSense. She doesn't know what it means. DesMoinesDem Jul 2013 #221

Oh, Linky-poo... Did you REALLY need to do this again? RevStPatrick Jul 2013 #216

"I actually happen to agree with you that 'Snowden is a delusional and self-important clown'" ProSense Jul 2013 #222

It is so bizarre the way you do that-- Marr Jul 2013 #228

So ProSense Jul 2013 #236

K&R! nt sheshe2 Jul 2013 #224

Maybe this is why it was important to leak it now? kentuck Jul 2013 #225

Maybe DU should change its rules to limit the number of repetitive posts that can totodeinhere Jul 2013 #226

It's Snowden's fault. kentuck Jul 2013 #233

a cap on OPs/day is long past due frylock Jul 2013 #235

Like I said ProSense Jul 2013 #237

Here's another DUer who posts lots of Snowden threads: Scurrilous Jul 2013 #312

I am not calling for the muzzling of anyone. But every forum has the right to establish certain totodeinhere Jul 2013 #313

I remember when DU had threads congratulating posters for reaching milestones such as 100,000 posts. Scurrilous Jul 2013 #314

I oppose personal attacks. But I would also like to know if that accusation totodeinhere Jul 2013 #323

She has denied it repeatedly and no one has offered any proof otherwise. Scurrilous Jul 2013 #326

Yes and for every one she posts, pro sense posts three more burnodo Jul 2013 #317

Serious question, joking aside. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #232

Because propaganda must be able to REWRITE history on a dime, woo me with science Jul 2013 #327

Thank you for posting this. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #330

Two different issues ShawnRIN Jul 2013 #234

196-5,and now for the halftime show... BornLooser Jul 2013 #238

Some of these folks are becoming obsessed with you. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #239

Because what once used to be informative posts darkangel218 Jul 2013 #242

No, ProSense Jul 2013 #243

I personally am NOT obsessing over you, ProSense. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #247

If posting a bunch of links got an OP deleted ... JoePhilly Jul 2013 #244

I agree calling out is wrong. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #249

IMHO ... JoePhilly Jul 2013 #257

That's rich ProSense Jul 2013 #272

This thread is not aboit me, its about you. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #273

Wrong, the thread is not about me, ProSense Jul 2013 #275

"few others" darkangel218 Jul 2013 #277

? Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #309

Nearly 102,000 posts on every political issue imagineable, *always* with positive spin for the WH, Marr Jul 2013 #253

Ok let's think. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #255

I have supported President Obama from the day one darkangel218 Jul 2013 #258

"who have never said a positive thing about the administration" Logical Jul 2013 #285

Wait, ProSense Jul 2013 #263

Excuse me to step in, since you clearly havent replied to me darkangel218 Jul 2013 #264

No, ProSense Jul 2013 #270

It proves the point i was trying to make. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #274

"Creepy" is used to make you slink away in shame. Puglover Jul 2013 #278

Umm... are you confused or something? darkangel218 Jul 2013 #279

I'm not obsessed with you, I simply consider you a White House advocate. Marr Jul 2013 #288

because it's funny Matariki Jul 2013 #281

Obsessed? You mean like 100 posts a day about Snowden? That type of obsessed? n-t Logical Jul 2013 #284

But, we need more Snowden threads. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #287

No, ProSense Jul 2013 #293

Geez... maybe you should take a break with this obsessiveness... MrMickeysMom Jul 2013 #304

Obsession! Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #305

Right? Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #308

Hahahaha!!!! That is so true. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #310

Did you call me - Monsieur S. Nado? flamingdem Jul 2013 #311

Its like middle school. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #319

i'm willing to bet no one read any of this Enrique Jul 2013 #266

Again? Thought we covered this already ... nt TBF Jul 2013 #267

Mahalo, ProSense! When will big hoax snowden and his Cha Jul 2013 #276

recommended nt arely staircase Jul 2013 #280

Snowden should come home and go on Faux and Friends. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #286

I suspect that that folks at Fox and Friends would be defending the totodeinhere Jul 2013 #290

No, you don't get it. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #291

I tried a search to see if I could find any specific comments that she has made on totodeinhere Jul 2013 #301

Greenwald went on Faux and Friends recently. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #303

I do not deny that they bash Obama at every opportunity. We all know that. totodeinhere Jul 2013 #306

Dang it! Summer Re-Run season is here! Vinnie From Indy Jul 2013 #289

I think you are alone on this usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #294

? Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #321

I think he did a great service to the country. Jake2413 Jul 2013 #295

"It's cool when Obama does it but bad when Bush does it unreadierLizard Jul 2013 #297

Lmao!!!!! darkangel218 Jul 2013 #325

K & R Scurrilous Jul 2013 #302

The attacks on you in this thread were HILARIOUS. I know we're all supposed to think that Number23 Jul 2013 #316

+1000 Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #320

. ProSense Jul 2013 #322

+1 uponit7771 Jul 2013 #336

this anti-Snowden campaign reeks of flop sweat yurbud Jul 2013 #318

Yep. nt darkangel218 Jul 2013 #324

and the more they howl and resort to personal attacks, the worse they look. yurbud Jul 2013 #328

You cant deny they're amusing. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #329

You mean like the howling pack of hyenas in this thread? Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #331

Exactly!! n/t boilerbabe Jul 2013 #332

Snowden did a lot more than post on a message board warrprayer Jul 2013 #333

Is that a photo of Vladimir Putin in your Sig? flamingdem Jul 2013 #334

Nyet warrprayer Jul 2013 #335

... warrprayer Jul 2013 #337