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onenote

(46,188 posts)

65. Yes SYG changed Florida's self defense law. But those changes probably did not impact the outcome

Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:34 PM

Jul 2013

of the Zimmerman case because, as others have pointed out, there was evidence from which the jury could have a reasonable doubt as to Zimmerman's ability to "retreat" from the danger after it arose.

One more try at explaining this: the common law duty to retreat did not determine whether it was reasonable for someone to fear for their life or body. Rather, it was a duty that arose AFTER one was in a position where one had such a reasonable fear and it requried that person to address that fear not by using force but by trying to retreat from the situation. It only applied where retreating could be done with complete safety. So, if you are in reasonable fear and you either can't retreat or can't do so safely, under the common law, you were justified in using force. If you were not in reasonable fear, whether or not you could or couldn't retreat was irrelevant.

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Here's Florida�s Next Trayvon Martin Case [View all] BainsBane Jul 2013 OP

Under SYG Mike Dunn WILL...> WILL go free because the jury will NOT be able to deliberate on uponit7771 Jul 2013 #1

Dunn would first have to prevail in a SYG hearing BainsBane Jul 2013 #2

Zimmerman didn't CLAIM SYG protection ... it was in the jury instructions and the jury... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #3

I agree Punkingal Jul 2013 #5

Man, you get all the smiley points etc if that could be found out. Why did the judge include them in uponit7771 Jul 2013 #8

Because SYG has rewritten FL self defense law in general BainsBane Jul 2013 #9

Well the media sure did a hell of a job explaining that... Punkingal Jul 2013 #11

This is all predicated upon the CLAIMS of juror B37 AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #46

Not true BainsBane Jul 2013 #52

Again, it does not matter. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #54

To pretend SYG had no effect on this case BainsBane Jul 2013 #55

That's not what I said. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #56

I believe the jury instructions are part of the court record BainsBane Jul 2013 #60

Actually, we agree on several points. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #64

Okay, I'm sorry I misunderstood you BainsBane Jul 2013 #75

I have used him as a poster child for what not to do. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #76

I agree with that BainsBane Jul 2013 #79

Yes, but AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #81

I think the prosecution should have more consistently argued that from the start BainsBane Jul 2013 #82

I agree. I think adding the manslaughter charge later on AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #83

I didn't know he was on Adderall BainsBane Jul 2013 #84

Adderall and Temazepam AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #85

Goes together BainsBane Jul 2013 #86

No, they didn't. Manslaughter is included in COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #103

Yes, actually they did. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #105

I don't find anything in the WSJ article COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #106

The problem with arguing that the incident began when Zimmerman first spotted Trayvon onenote Jul 2013 #89

Isn't it true that in some states the defendant must prove BainsBane Jul 2013 #90

The prevailing rule these days is for the burden of proof onenote Jul 2013 #93

Thanks for the info. nt BainsBane Jul 2013 #96

Yes SYG changed Florida's self defense law. But those changes probably did not impact the outcome onenote Jul 2013 #65

Sounds to me like there is no real need for SYG then BainsBane Jul 2013 #87

As I've said, I'm not a fan of SYG. I think the common law duty to retreat is a better approach onenote Jul 2013 #92

In some states, there was an explicit duty to retreat. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #98

The lawyer here explains it well BainsBane Jul 2013 #99

This is false, the "DANGER" arose when Z called TM "scary" NOT NOT when TM started bashing uponit7771 Jul 2013 #111

Link? onenote Jul 2013 #113

...to what? That Zimmmerman indicated he was afraid of TM?! uponit7771 Jul 2013 #116

Wrongo. I've asked you multiple times to back up your claim of what it means to "avoid conflict" onenote Jul 2013 #118

So GZ didn't say he was afraid of TM?! Were you watching the same trial?! And tons of words does uponit7771 Jul 2013 #119

And once again you fail to back up your misreading of the law onenote Jul 2013 #121

Because its part of the self defense law. onenote Jul 2013 #13

good points BainsBane Jul 2013 #7

even by that standard he is sunk dsc Jul 2013 #19

its going to be interesting. if you read up on the story okieinpain Jul 2013 #28

They didn't "leave the scene" joc46224 Jul 2013 #37

as i said its going to be interesting. n/ t okieinpain Jul 2013 #39

Nope, he's going to jail. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #45

You have a fundamental problem with COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #102

Unfortunately I think Dunn will go free Cali_Democrat Jul 2013 #4

YEAP that's the way SYG is written because, like in the Zimmerman case, the jury can NOT deliberat uponit7771 Jul 2013 #6

Despite the efforts of many over an extended period of time, you still don't understand the law. onenote Jul 2013 #14

unfortunately "reasonable person" generally means white jurors BainsBane Jul 2013 #15

That would be the case whether Florida has enacted SYG or not wouldn't it? onenote Jul 2013 #18

a strong case? BainsBane Jul 2013 #25

a strong case that the common law duty to retreat didn't apply onenote Jul 2013 #26

What fear could he possibly claim? BainsBane Jul 2013 #32

I don't think he had a reasonable fear onenote Jul 2013 #36

Okay BainsBane Jul 2013 #41

How can one not be a threat in their unreasonable minds? lunasun Jul 2013 #23

There's no use talking to someone COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #104

That doesn't allow you to imagine a shotgun that doesn't exist. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #48

The two cases aren't all that similar. Captain Stern Jul 2013 #10

They are VERY familiar in the terms of SYG. All that is needed is a threat "in your mind..." uponit7771 Jul 2013 #12

A person can claim that "in their mind" they believed the victim was a vampire onenote Jul 2013 #16

...or claim that their head was being bashed in and nothing but scrataches on his head uponit7771 Jul 2013 #38

And what is your point? onenote Jul 2013 #42

I've said it multiple times; "there's no standard for reasonable REALITY" uponit7771 Jul 2013 #112

And you still aren't stating the law correctly. onenote Jul 2013 #114

"everyone" has the Zimmerman trial results. Everyone who is a rational person can see Z didn't have uponit7771 Jul 2013 #115

The law (and not just in SYG jurisdictions): onenote Jul 2013 #117

You can't just imagine a shotgun and claim SYG. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #49

according to Z trial a person doesn't have to have proof of injury just proof that an injury uponit7771 Jul 2013 #108

I agree Zimmerman is not a credible witness. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #110

Except SYG had nothing to do with the Zimmerman case. Donald Ian Rankin Jul 2013 #107

It was in the jury instructions, Z didn't have to claim SYG uponit7771 Jul 2013 #109

+1 This guy is toast. nt Dreamer Tatum Jul 2013 #17

I trust nothing when it comes to Florida juries now Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #22

exactly. n/t. okieinpain Jul 2013 #29

I wish it were just Florida BainsBane Jul 2013 #53

That's pretty much it right there Scootaloo Jul 2013 #78

lat's try to remain positive like you for now lunasun Jul 2013 #24

Does Concealed Carry classes include telling shooters what to say after the sinkingfeeling Jul 2013 #20

I think they are people who are afraid to begin with BainsBane Jul 2013 #21

That is what makes it extra scary lunasun Jul 2013 #27

agreed BainsBane Jul 2013 #34

depends naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #31

pretty much NatBurner Jul 2013 #33

Except the victim wasn't black BainsBane Jul 2013 #35

nope! NatBurner Jul 2013 #43

I remember this case BainsBane Jul 2013 #44

Mr. Martin was not stealing anything. He was walking + minding his own business. lunasun Jul 2013 #69

There is less evidence to support self-defense, and more witnesses to the homicide... aikoaiko Jul 2013 #30

Even if Zimmerman had witness's, due to jury instructions, it wouldn't matter... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #40

Given your extensive research and expertise in this area onenote Jul 2013 #47

Zimmerman case, I already did...Zimmerman didn't even have superficial wounds, he had scratches that uponit7771 Jul 2013 #57

Well, you certainly are a stubborn one onenote Jul 2013 #62

I admire Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #101

Your conclusion of what SYG means is flawed. Sorry. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #50

..NO it's not, there's no duty to retreat and there's no duty to "avoid conflict" either in that ... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #58

still waiting for you to show a case in which the duty to "avoid conflict" means what you claim onenote Jul 2013 #63

I already did...regards uponit7771 Jul 2013 #70

no you haven't. onenote Jul 2013 #73

Again, AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #67

That's NOT what the jury accepted, people READ THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS they could NOT ... NOT uponit7771 Jul 2013 #71

And the fact that he was being SAT UPON factors into that reasonable apprehension, in the jury's eye AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #72

You couldn't be more wrong if you said the moon was made of green cheese. onenote Jul 2013 #74

But if Zimmerman had grabbed or tacked TM, it could have been different. aikoaiko Jul 2013 #51

GZ had superficial wounds, there was little to no evidence that he was getting his head bashed in... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #59

GZ didn't have to be beaten badly for that evidence to support his story. aikoaiko Jul 2013 #61

You're right, he only had to fear "IN HIS MIND" that he WOULD WOULD get beat badly... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #66

absolutely a reasonable person could fear that their head was going to be bashed in onenote Jul 2013 #77

His head was no longer on the concrete when he shot Trayvon. I do not believe a "Reasonable" person SeaLyons Jul 2013 #91

FWIW, I agree with you. onenote Jul 2013 #95

"IN HIS MIND" is wrong. That is not the law. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #94

not quite --- there's a reasonable person standard to be met. aikoaiko Jul 2013 #97

Quite the recent spate of strange and bitter crops... LanternWaste Jul 2013 #68

Not very similar madville Jul 2013 #80

The big difference here is that it will be provably UNREASONABLE cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #88

I hope you're right BainsBane Jul 2013 #100

Is the location a factor? joeybee12 Jul 2013 #120

Jacksonville has come a long way Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #122

Thanks...I didn't know much about the city... joeybee12 Jul 2013 #123

Jax exploded in population Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #124