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[Tommy_Carcetti]

178. ...........

Thank you for the civilized response, although it's clear we see things differently.

Regarding the affirmative defense of self-defense, I think the physical and eyewitness testimony only established that there was some sort of physical altercation between the two. It does not prove that Trayvon ambushed Zimmerman, and to me, the only way I can plausibly believe Zimmerman was acting in self-defense is if he was ambushed. Zimmerman's story does claim just that, but the story seems so devoid of logic that I would need corroborating eyewitness testimony (witnessing the ambush itself) just to consider it plausible. There was no such eyewitness testimony regarding an ambush.

The injuries themselves make me believe Zimmerman less, not more. Zimmerman claims his head was bashed into concrete anywhere from 10-30 times. The medical testimony did not support this (not even from his own medical expert). Video evidence of Zimmerman walking around freely shortly thereafter did not support this. Zimmerman refusing emergency room care and MRIs did not support this. Zimmerman claiming he was the one clearly yelling for help during the fight did not support this (knowing that multiple strikes to the head would likely cause some sort of concussion, mild or otherwise). All we had was a bloody nose (and yet no blood transferred onto Trayvon's hand which was supposedly smothering Zimmerman's face, which also casts serious doubt on his account) and two small cuts to the head.

And while it's true the law does not require one to have sustained life threatening injuries to be in reasonable fear for one's life and thus act in self-defense, if Zimmerman's head was not actually being bashed into concrete 10-30 times, what else would have caused him to reasonable fear for his life? Did Trayvon have a gun? No, he didn't have a gun. Did Trayvon have a knife? No, he didn't have a knife. So no gun, no knife, no concrete, what would have actually caused Zimmerman to think his life was in danger where he had to use deadly force above and beyond ordinary hand-to-hand force? The defense never said.

So let's go back to the ambush. I don't think you have the timeline correct. Trayvon's call with Rachel ended at 7:16, I believe about a half minute or so before the 911 calls started coming in and a little less than a minute before the shot was fired. Zimmerman tells dispatch that Trayvon was running around the 7:12 mark. Now, you do raise a point that given the relatively short distance to the house where he was staying, he could have made it home in that approximate 3-4 minute period. However, it's possible that he chose to hide out for a minute or two until he felt the coast was clear. It's also possible that since a) he did not live in the neighborhood and wasn't infinitely familiar with it, b) it was dark outside, c) this was a townhouse community where all the houses looked nearly identical, especially from the back, and d) he was on the dog walk where there were no house numbers, he was trying to make his way back to Retreat View Circle so he could make it to the front door of the home where he was staying. All of these possibilities sound logical. What just doesn't sound logical is him doubling back with the intent to ambush George Zimmerman, a man he did not know and who was chasing him for reasons totally unknown to him, and a man he had just managed to escape. Not only does it not make any sense from a psychological standpoint, but the evidence simply doesn't support it. Remember, phone records establish he was on the phone very shortly before neighbors started hearing the commotion. Why would someone planning an ambush continue to talk on the phone and give away the most important part of an ambush, that being the element of surprise? Why would Trayvon's phone be on the ground, as if it were dropped (consistent with Rachel's testimony), as opposed to being in his pocket, meaning Trayvon had both hands free to launch his attack? In order for Zimmerman to prove he was not the aggressor (and thus entitled to self-defense), he needed to show that he was blindsided by Trayvon, and his story needs to make sense. His story, in light of the evidence, does not make sense. It is not plausible, and at least to me, he failed to show that he would be afforded the protection of the affirmative defense of self-defense.

And while I get that you believe it was Zimmerman's voice crying for help, I don't get that only someone totally blinded by emotion and anger and racial bias would believe it was Trayvon's. Your position assumes everything in Zimmerman's story to be true, while in fact only a small portion of his statements were ever corroborated by some of the witnesses, and flat out contradicted by other witnesses. It's very reasonable to believe that someone who has a gun pointed by him by a complete stranger for unknown reasons might yell for help. While conceding that Zimmerman may have suffered some injuries as a result of a physical altercation with Trayvon, there's nothing that I've seen that's consistent with these injuries being life threatening. Zimmerman's story had serious holes in it, beyond what I mentioned above (the need to get out of the car for an address, that he would have to walk all the way through to the other side of Retreat View Circle to get an address, that he didn't know what street he was on in his own community of 3 streets where he had live for 3 years and acted as watchman, that he decided to tell police not to meet him at his car but instead to give him a call).

His story just never added up for me. It was not even remotely plausible.

As for motives, there may have been a few outliers on here that believe that Zimmerman premeditatedly sought out Trayvon to murder him, the vast majority on here have viewed the case in the view of second degree murder and manslaughter, neither of them requiring proof of premeditation or intent to kill. And it's possible, and I'd argue likely in light of his recorded statements, that Zimmerman got out of his car (while armed) with the intent to detain Trayvon until police arrived but that things deteriorated quickly thereafter. Which does not (or at least should not have) absolve Zimmerman for either 2nd Degree Murder or manslaughter.