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mythology

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178. It's much easier to argue against a straw man

Fri Jul 19, 2013, 09:19 PM

Jul 2013

Too many people confuse morality for legality and what should be for what is. The name calling is frustration, but it's still an awful way to try to make a point.

The best advice is to call the police and to get to a public place. That might not have saved his life, but that would have given him the best chance given the fact that George Zimmerman was looking for him with a gun.

Yes it sucks that he was profiled for being black, but we don't yet live in a world in which we've gotten past that.

Florida's law on stand your ground and the criminal justice system in general are in favor of the accused as both are intended. The prosecution didn't put on a strong case, but they were facing an uphill battle. The stand your ground laws should be changed so that if you are the instigator as Zimmerman was by following Trayvon, but the fact is the law in this case functioned as intended.

The morally correct thing would have been for Zimmerman to not have followed Trayvon, to have listened to the police dispatcher, to have not shot Trayvon. But the stand your ground law isn't designed to follow what I believe to be morally correct.

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A question for those who feel that the correct verdict was rendered in the Zimmerman trial. [View all] Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 OP

Respect the authority of the white man, and say "yessuh" and "nossuh" Hugabear Jul 2013 #1

Hey , HUGGY, You're almost EXACTLY right.... Ecumenist Jul 2013 #75

You forgot … 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2013 #173

Leave the guy alone. dkf Jul 2013 #2

And what do you do when that guy keeps following you, then gets in your face? Hugabear Jul 2013 #5

Me? I'm leaving twice as fast. If he tackles me, then yes i will go for his nose dkf Jul 2013 #7

You weren't fast enough. EOTE Jul 2013 #30

Then he is prosecuted and convicted. dkf Jul 2013 #39

Bullshit. You have no idea how the law works, especially as it pertains to minorities. EOTE Jul 2013 #44

+++++++++ uppityperson Jul 2013 #52

Was TM's life being actively threatened? dkf Jul 2013 #66

He had a fucking psycho with a gun stalking him. EOTE Jul 2013 #67

Well if he knew Z had a gun that would be stupid to get into a fight. dkf Jul 2013 #70

When you're accosted by a mad man with a gun who won't identify himself you've got two options. EOTE Jul 2013 #73

But Rachel Jeantel testified that TM spoke to Z first. dkf Jul 2013 #80

And within seconds he's saying "Get off of me". EOTE Jul 2013 #82

Trayvon had EVERY RIGHT to be where he was Hugabear Jul 2013 #96

He didn't have a right to assault Z. dkf Jul 2013 #107

So I can shoot someone just for hitting me? Hugabear Jul 2013 #127

If you feel your life is in danger and if you can't retreat, yes. dkf Jul 2013 #151

It really Doesn't RobinA Jul 2013 #182

How about this, works just as anything else we've heard... all american girl Jul 2013 #109

Wasn't Z waiting for the cops? dkf Jul 2013 #112

He was suppose to be meeting them at the clubhouse. Not where the murder happened. all american girl Jul 2013 #122

Sorry, honey, but when you are being followed, it's scary... all american girl Jul 2013 #95

No I do have an idea that Trayvon hit him. dkf Jul 2013 #152

I'm not saying Trayvon was not on top....we don't have clear evidence, but how did all american girl Jul 2013 #175

The nose could have been quakerboy Jul 2013 #194

What nuckle injuries on Trayvon? He had a tiny cut on his pinky funger. lumpy Jul 2013 #210

You read the autopsy report? XemaSab Jul 2013 #211

Regarding what ? lumpy Jul 2013 #213

+1,000 malaise Jul 2013 #144

along those lines of believing that just before or after he was shot he said... salin Jul 2013 #190

Like Martin sat up and uttered words while his lungs were rapidly filling with blood ?? lumpy Jul 2013 #214

Really ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2013 #174

So you believe Zimmerman that his head was whacked continuously? chieftain Jul 2013 #207

But FL law says you have a right to Stand Your Ground cprise Jul 2013 #101

My right to stand my ground doesn't matter if I'm dead Bake Jul 2013 #115

In effect that's true cprise Jul 2013 #159

If You Don't RobinA Jul 2013 #184

I don't think that logic would be apparent cprise Jul 2013 #186

Turns out Trayvon needed to knock him unconscious. You can't reason with a crazed bigot with a gun. Hoyt Jul 2013 #8

Looks like he tried his best to do so. dkf Jul 2013 #10

Only to the crazed folks who love guns and hate minorities. Hoyt Jul 2013 #12

Of course you have no proof of either of those things rl6214 Jul 2013 #43

Well, he IS replying to dkf. uppityperson Jul 2013 #59

And? rl6214 Jul 2013 #63

Deep Kover Freeper? Hugabear Jul 2013 #99

More proof than you have. Hoyt Jul 2013 #60

I am a minority. And female. And I have no guns. dkf Jul 2013 #83

You still have a warped, callous sense of justice. Hoyt Jul 2013 #88

This case wasn't set up to gain racial justice for all past injustices. dkf Jul 2013 #102

Run and risk being shot anyway... Fight back, hoping to disable Z. Or shoot Z and end up on death hlthe2b Jul 2013 #3

But if he ran and was shot Z would be convicted. dkf Jul 2013 #11

Probably not, Zman would have made up lies, just like he did. Hoyt Jul 2013 #15

There were witnesses, also ballistics. dkf Jul 2013 #24

Hardly.... He'd undoubtedly claim Trayvon was running to get/retrieve a weapon and he was "afeared" hlthe2b Jul 2013 #16

That wouldn't work. dkf Jul 2013 #20

Yeah, because we all know what an incredibly sane and sensible law SYG is. EOTE Jul 2013 #32

A bullet in the back from a distance would be impossible to overcome hack89 Jul 2013 #42

It's already been said on this thread, but I'm sure there are others. EOTE Jul 2013 #46

People don't run backwards. We are talking about shooting some one in the back. hack89 Jul 2013 #58

Shooting someone... who was going to get their gun! EOTE Jul 2013 #64

A third of SYG case in Florida lead to convictions hack89 Jul 2013 #110

This study says SYG results in anti-black racism: cprise Jul 2013 #163

You are seeing the distorting effect of small samples hack89 Jul 2013 #170

The study I posted is nation-wide with a larger sample. n/t cprise Jul 2013 #183

When studies only present percentages without the actual numbers hack89 Jul 2013 #188

PBS Frontline cited this study, along with some numbers cprise Jul 2013 #208

You still would have to address the hard numbers from Florida hack89 Jul 2013 #209

Hey, there are gungeoneers who are fine with shooting a kid in back running with a stolen cd player. Hoyt Jul 2013 #74

"I thought he was grabbing that branch to swing at me". jeff47 Jul 2013 #108

A third of all Florida SYG cases result in conviction hack89 Jul 2013 #111

In those cases that have been publicized jeff47 Jul 2013 #114

With no witnesses it should be hard to convict people hack89 Jul 2013 #129

There have been successful SYG cases just like this.... You are determined to defend this hlthe2b Jul 2013 #41

SYG against people who are shot while running away in a public area ? dkf Jul 2013 #45

You read only what you want to read apparently... ignoring the white man who shot/killed hlthe2b Jul 2013 #48

Come on dfk, how does that help the dead person? The person wants to live not be a sacrifice TheKentuckian Jul 2013 #81

I would advise anyone not to get into a physical COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #4

Better than an armed conflict, which you appear to approve. Hoyt Jul 2013 #18

No conflict is best. Not even verbal. dkf Jul 2013 #22

No, I don't approve of that either. Physical COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #26

so someone targets, stalks and then confronts you with a gun Skittles Jul 2013 #33

I have actually been confronted with a gun COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #34

LOL you're advising a black teenager to RUN????? Skittles Jul 2013 #35

Absolutely. (Read some of the similar comments by black COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #38

you live in a dream world Skittles Jul 2013 #47

Wow. A little overwrought, are we? COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #50

YES - innocent teenagers murdered FOR NO REASON upset me Skittles Jul 2013 #53

You have a super-wonderful day, too! COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #54

+100000000000000000 Hoyt Jul 2013 #61

Has that effect on ALL decent folk etherealtruth Jul 2013 #132

I Thought RobinA Jul 2013 #187

Stop your hatred, Skittles. When you're ready to reason, start. nt Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #71

I see... the ones who AREN'T defending the piece of shit who murdered an unarmed kid... EOTE Jul 2013 #86

Beyond the usual bait, No you don't see... Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #98

This message was self-deleted by its author Ecumenist Jul 2013 #91

Hey, Colgate, I've been black MOST of my life and my mother taught me from the Ecumenist Jul 2013 #94

Leaving aside your venting, I don't see where there's COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #116

Here's the point I was making...MAYBE I wasn't clear enough.... Ecumenist Jul 2013 #126

You are still blowing off steam. When you take it upon yourself COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #133

Are you trying to fucking tell me that a woman, child or man MINDING their own business Ecumenist Jul 2013 #153

You do know that almost every detail you're alleging COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #176

Hey Skittles, what they actually mean is they would've gotten away from Bundy, Ramirez... Ecumenist Jul 2013 #84

Call the police. Rex Jul 2013 #6

+1000. nt. premium Jul 2013 #19

If only he was on the phone with 911 during all this Rex Jul 2013 #29

I agree completely, premium Jul 2013 #37

Why do you think he committed manslaughter? Vattel Jul 2013 #180

That, and that he should have just waited for the police to show up. nt. premium Jul 2013 #197

I thought gun lovers tell us "the police have no duty to help" or some such BS. Hoyt Jul 2013 #65

yup Skittles Jul 2013 #69

You see, it's their own fault for not owning a gun. EOTE Jul 2013 #76

I am SO sick of Zimmerman defenders Skittles Jul 2013 #85

I see no defenders here. But I do see a lot of hatred. nt Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #100

There are two groups, one is the DU legal team Rex Jul 2013 #106

Sorry, I don't see those 2 groups. The hatred, yes... Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #117

Jimmy Carter? Wow that is...interesting. Rex Jul 2013 #121

Well, I think he said that the verdict was proper or words to that effect. Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #141

LOL Skittles Jul 2013 #158

I have no doubt he had his gun out and was already telling Martin Rex Jul 2013 #105

it's really a proven fact Skittles Jul 2013 #156

Indeed. We know Zimmermans ambition was to capture the 'punk, asshole' who might get away. lumpy Jul 2013 #217

They don't have a duty to any individual in most states anomiep Jul 2013 #113

I agree. My point was the bigoted gun nuts defend their toting by saying Hoyt Jul 2013 #118

That's correct, premium Jul 2013 #119

Premium, God bless your soul, but you just don't get it. Hoyt Jul 2013 #125

Hoyt, yes I do get it, premium Jul 2013 #128

There were two or three recordings, you guys discounted them. Hoyt Jul 2013 #137

I discounted them? premium Jul 2013 #139

Premium, you just said a 911 call would have provided a record. I pointed out we had Hoyt Jul 2013 #145

No Hoyt, you said you guys (me) discounted them, premium Jul 2013 #146

Like I said, you really don't get it. Another recording would not have been enough for you guys. Hoyt Jul 2013 #147

IOW, you can't provide that link. premium Jul 2013 #148

Watching MSNBC all week I've heard more than one black man say lunatica Jul 2013 #9

Told my 4 year old nephew that. Don't get into fights. Avoid confrontations. My nieces too. dkf Jul 2013 #17

I used to tell him that anyone can get into a fight lunatica Jul 2013 #36

Beat him til he starts crying and begging me not to kill him. ieoeja Jul 2013 #13

So far the options put forth are to remain passive and do nothing (and hope that the person Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #14

Actively confronting him is not an option if you fear he has a gun hack89 Jul 2013 #25

Correct. nt COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #27

Yep, get away from bigots with a gun. In Florida, 90% will always be running from the gun toters. Hoyt Jul 2013 #77

I have hand it to you Hoyt hack89 Jul 2013 #92

Nope. What are yours? nt Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #103

Being an armchair quarterback, but calling 911 and Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #130

I agree. I have seen and been in incidents where violence threatened... Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #149

you are a hero CitizenLeft Jul 2013 #200

Thank you. I won't day "no," but soon... Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #203

the ones saying he should have called the police Skittles Jul 2013 #157

Who said don't rely on the police?. nt. premium Jul 2013 #167

It's much easier to argue against a straw man mythology Jul 2013 #178

Keeping in mind that Z's actions are primarily responsible for TM's death hack89 Jul 2013 #21

Stop talking to friend, call 911, and walk directly home (or follow 911 directions). aikoaiko Jul 2013 #23

I don't think going home was an option for Trayvon.. ananda Jul 2013 #62

It's only an option for those who blame Trayvon. Hoyt Jul 2013 #79

yup - it's an option for those trying Trayvon for his own murder Skittles Jul 2013 #87

Or it could just be people talking and wishing things were different. aikoaiko Jul 2013 #104

now the Zimmy supporters are saying Trayvon should have called the police Skittles Jul 2013 #155

Are you listening to yourself? premium Jul 2013 #199

LOLOL Skittles Jul 2013 #205

When You Feel RobinA Jul 2013 #191

According to the phone conversation between Martin and his friend, Martin thought he had lumpy Jul 2013 #219

I don't blame Trayvon for his death at all. aikoaiko Jul 2013 #97

Maybe. But I would still tell my 17 to get in the house and lock door. aikoaiko Jul 2013 #93

Any verdict is correct NoOneMan Jul 2013 #28

Keep walking down the lit street and walk home sgsmith Jul 2013 #31

Keep on going, do not stop, go straight home rl6214 Jul 2013 #40

unless you believe Zimmerman's ridiculous story Skittles Jul 2013 #51

Evidence shows he stopped and did not go straight home rl6214 Jul 2013 #56

he stopped because he was confronted by a racist gun humping paranoid vigilante Skittles Jul 2013 #57

Trayvon, according to his friend on the phone, thought he had ditched Zimmerman. He lumpy Jul 2013 #218

Do you publish your works of fiction? rl6214 Jul 2013 #222

Call 911.. MicaelS Jul 2013 #49

Ignore him and go on home. MrSlayer Jul 2013 #55

you do realize that "those who feel that the correct verdict was rendered" would DrDan Jul 2013 #68

I think if you believe Zimmerman's story Skittles Jul 2013 #72

two different things DrDan Jul 2013 #135

I don't think so Skittles Jul 2013 #154

and I have doubts . . . the testimonies were at odds, the witnesses did not agree DrDan Jul 2013 #160

there's no doubt the reckless actions of Zimmerman led to the death of an innocent person Skittles Jul 2013 #161

that alone does not prove 2D or manslaughter DrDan Jul 2013 #162

he is forever guilty Skittles Jul 2013 #164

you really should give some thougth to how our justice system works - DrDan Jul 2013 #165

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz done here Skittles Jul 2013 #166

IOW, premium Jul 2013 #169

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #185

LOL. premium Jul 2013 #198

Zimmerman had experience in getting out of his many 'jams' probably refinded his excuses lumpy Jul 2013 #220

I probably worded that badly. Due to the evidence presented Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #123

fair enough DrDan Jul 2013 #134

Same advice for Martin and Zimmerman: Avoid confrontation, get out of harm's way. Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #78

I hope that, if I were on the jury, I would have had the courage to hold out for manslaughter. John1956PA Jul 2013 #131

I don't know what happened, but Zimmerman was an ass to take the actions... Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #143

Couldn't agree much more. lumpy Jul 2013 #221

Well, Zimmerman obviously grabbed him. Zoeisright Jul 2013 #89

Bigotry trumps decency. Hoyt Jul 2013 #90

I'm wondering about this, and I have white kids. all american girl Jul 2013 #120

What did you tell them before this case? ksoze Jul 2013 #124

I told them both, you have a right to your own body, NO ONE is aloud to tough you no matter what all american girl Jul 2013 #168

I believe the correct verdict was rendered in the Zimmerman trial. Captain Stern Jul 2013 #136

He was 70 feet from his father's house. He was trying to get somewhere safe. renie408 Jul 2013 #142

You are mistaken. Captain Stern Jul 2013 #150

I am sorry. renie408 Jul 2013 #206

Thanks Captain Stern Jul 2013 #215

My question for those who feel that the correct verdict was rendered in the Zimmerman trial... renie408 Jul 2013 #138

So long as you ignore a) the law and b) the evidence COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #140

1. Call the police Taitertots Jul 2013 #171

Are you for real? Ruby the Liberal Jul 2013 #172

5. If you did that to someone, they could shoot you and walk like Zimmerman Taitertots Jul 2013 #177

Prosecution overcharged, and/or failed to add the correct lessor included ... zencycler Jul 2013 #179

... as to what Trayvon should have done. zencycler Jul 2013 #189

He Should RobinA Jul 2013 #181

When I was a teen and one of the straights (adults) braddy Jul 2013 #192

It depends on the meaning of the word correct dsc Jul 2013 #193

See my post below about the verdict. Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #196

Go home... Pelican Jul 2013 #195

How far away was his Dad's apartment? Common Sense Party Jul 2013 #201

According to Rachel Jeantel XemaSab Jul 2013 #204

my scenario, in my own head, is that Zimmerman caught up to him... CitizenLeft Jul 2013 #202

your scenerio zencycler Jul 2013 #212

Don't swing first Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #216