General Discussion

RBInMaine

(13,570 posts)

129. No, they laid out many facts tearing up his version of events, but yes they did not offer a clear

Sat Jul 20, 2013, 05:43 PM

Jul 2013

counter story of just how it happened and instead decided to "let the jury decide" and I think in the end it was that lack of a clear counter story and counter narrative that presented a lot of difficulty. They acknowledged a confrontation, and a fight, but could only imply that Z already had the gun out OR pulled the gun as T was backing up off him.

There is absolutely no doubt Z lied like hell on many points, and that was because he was worried he did not have enough to justify his use of force and didn't want there to be any doubt about that.

The prosecution actually put on a good case with what they had, but I think their errors were failure to push manslaughter only and that narrative, and to not offer a clear counter version of what they think the evidence shows to have happened.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

207 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Did Zimmerman put hands on Martin first? [View all] SaveAmerica Jul 2013 OP

I don't think anyone knows. That's why the jury napi21 Jul 2013 #1

I think that's why the Defense didn't want George to testify SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #7

The prosecution had not proved Zimmerman guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. ... spin Jul 2013 #39

getting GZ to testify zencycler Jul 2013 #139

Welcome to DU. (n/t) spin Jul 2013 #183

The defense didn't want Zimmerman to testify... Captain Stern Jul 2013 #146

No, it was because they would have eviscerated him on cross examination making him look like a LIAR. RBInMaine Jul 2013 #203

Probably so Captain Stern Jul 2013 #205

Where in John2 Jul 2013 #9

Ah the law of assertion. Because you say it's so doesn't make it so. galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #15

Lesson from Zimmerman case: kill the witness. Also "I'm going to kick your ass" is not what MillennialDem Jul 2013 #22

Legally "I am going to kick your ass" Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #42

Wrong. You are making up your own scenario most likely. MillennialDem Jul 2013 #43

No, I am not Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #51

You claim that John2 Jul 2013 #81

I was a deputy Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #84

I strongly suggest that John2 Jul 2013 #93

I don't know where you come from, but talking smack to me MillennialDem Jul 2013 #102

I am going to shoot you Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #112

Sweet, so all I have to do is get someone I don't like sent to MillennialDem Jul 2013 #113

Well yes Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #121

But calling someone a faggot as you said is "just words" / "smack talk". I'm going to kick your MillennialDem Jul 2013 #123

I would look up Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #124

I'd rather not take my chances if someone is about to hit to me and has said as such. And yeah MillennialDem Jul 2013 #128

You the John2 Jul 2013 #188

Wow- lots to reply to Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #207

I think when an ass has a gun in their pants, you start pounding on them before they grab their guns Hoyt Jul 2013 #76

If you can show that he knew the gun was there Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #77

A guy carrying a gun is pretty obvious, there is an air about them. Hoyt Jul 2013 #80

Ohh bullshit Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #82

I can even tell which side you got it on by the way you walk and Hoyt Jul 2013 #89

Thanks for the laugh. It's the best one I've had all week. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #145

The prosecution was John2 Jul 2013 #87

Exactly, Zimmerman was prepared to kill someone. If his fight training failed, Hoyt Jul 2013 #91

BS Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #94

Why are you no longer a deputy? What military are you in? uppityperson Jul 2013 #97

Long story Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #106

Also GZ did not merely walk up to Martin. He slowly followed him in his truck, got out and chased hi MillennialDem Jul 2013 #26

Based on the map of the community, the confirmed timeline, and galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #38

I think it's a close call on the reasonable doubt aspect of it - and yeah I would MillennialDem Jul 2013 #40

This is where I disagree w the notion of civil reprisal. galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #56

Why? That's exactly the point. In criminal court someone is MillennialDem Jul 2013 #108

Thank You MillennialDem you stopped the flow of BS. orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #152

Easy now rover, you can even tie up a disscusion with orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #151

Your argument, unfortunately, is based on a misperception of the law onenote Jul 2013 #17

I'm glad you put the last paragraph in there. What is awful though is that by killing the witness MillennialDem Jul 2013 #24

My opinion is based on the discussions of dueling lawyers napi21 Jul 2013 #19

But can't you be scared before you throw the first punch? SwissTony Jul 2013 #37

If you had a reasonable basis for fearing for your life onenote Jul 2013 #44

This seems reasonable to me. SwissTony Jul 2013 #74

Under the law passed in 2005, that could be true. Prior law, Zimmy needed to show he could not get Hoyt Jul 2013 #95

Thanks, excellent points. Martin doubling back makes no sense if you SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #25

that's pretty telling. you're walking along texting people who are waiting for you & then suddenly HiPointDem Jul 2013 #173

Martin's main fear was sexual marshall Jul 2013 #49

new meme from the wingers HiPointDem Jul 2013 #175

It's from ear witness Rachel Jeantel marshall Jul 2013 #180

no, it's not. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #200

It is what it is marshall Jul 2013 #206

You need to spend a little more time in the Law COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #54

+1 HiPointDem Jul 2013 #174

The jury didn't have a hard time. They were racists who thought that Trayvon deserved to be killed. yardwork Jul 2013 #70

Yes. He tried to "detain" TM ... MaeScott Jul 2013 #181

The world will never know...there was no witness to this fight davidn3600 Jul 2013 #2

I would submit there was a witness, an 'ear' witness... Spazito Jul 2013 #12

As a witness she had issues... Pelican Jul 2013 #18

Please point out to me the inconsistencies in her testimony on the stand... Spazito Jul 2013 #23

You seem sensitive and have misunderstood... Pelican Jul 2013 #47

So there were NO inconsistencies in her testimony... Spazito Jul 2013 #58

Of course... Pelican Jul 2013 #62

The state provided evidence as well, phone logs, Trayvon Martin's ear buds... Spazito Jul 2013 #86

Those who found her to be a credible witness YarnAddict Jul 2013 #92

Those who found Zimmerman, the defendant who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, credible,.... Spazito Jul 2013 #99

She also lied about having written that letter to Trayvon's mom XemaSab Jul 2013 #109

She didn't write it because she doesn't write cursive... Spazito Jul 2013 #160

Why didn't she print it? XemaSab Jul 2013 #162

Wow...just wow... Spazito Jul 2013 #163

She lied about having written it! XemaSab Jul 2013 #166

zimmerman lied, repeatedly, & he's the defendant who murdered someone. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #176

Too bad for the state that the forensic evidence, the timeline, and a couple of the eyewitnesses XemaSab Jul 2013 #187

too bad for the martins that the murderer had friends in the 'justice' system. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #198

My reaction as well. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #170

She told lies YarnAddict Jul 2013 #110

If I had been on the jury, I would have known a lie being in the hospital so as to... Spazito Jul 2013 #117

No, they laid out many facts tearing up his version of events, but yes they did not offer a clear RBInMaine Jul 2013 #129

I watched the same trial John2 Jul 2013 #75

Are you saying she is lying? She seems believable to me. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #28

I'm saying that even if she wasn't... Pelican Jul 2013 #50

Unlike Zimmy's statements, given by a man who was Always Honest and True? uppityperson Jul 2013 #53

Well I am sorry but she came off as very believable and she is not looking to make money off hrmjustin Jul 2013 #55

She seems that way to you... Pelican Jul 2013 #64

Reading your posts it is clear what side you are on. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #66

As it stands, with the standard defense law... Pelican Jul 2013 #68

A child gets killed by a racist SOB coming home from the store and you think nothing should happen hrmjustin Jul 2013 #71

You picked a side too BainsBane Jul 2013 #130

If Rachel Jeantel was a white girl XemaSab Jul 2013 #134

First of all she is not illiterate and that is sad you would imply that. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #135

She's totally illiterate XemaSab Jul 2013 #137

She's not illiterate BainsBane Jul 2013 #141

I'm bigoted against uneducated people XemaSab Jul 2013 #144

She's a 19 year old kid. Scared. Nervous. English was not her first language. And just because RBInMaine Jul 2013 #202

She's an adult XemaSab Jul 2013 #204

And how do you know this? hrmjustin Jul 2013 #150

She was unable to write a really simple letter to Trayvon's mother without help XemaSab Jul 2013 #153

OMG! She had someone write the letter because she can not read or write script. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #154

So why didn't she print or type the letter? XemaSab Jul 2013 #159

Maybe someone suggested that it be in script. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #161

I'm not degrading her; I am stating plain facts XemaSab Jul 2013 #164

I stand by my last post. Think what you will. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #165

And did she tell the truth XemaSab Jul 2013 #167

Well we disagree! hrmjustin Jul 2013 #168

So you disagree that she lied several times? XemaSab Jul 2013 #169

We disagee on the fact that you are denigrating her. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #171

If Sarah Palin is asked what publications she reads XemaSab Jul 2013 #172

And how does that concern you in any way? BainsBane Jul 2013 #156

Can't you leave her alone? BainsBane Jul 2013 #140

Lets be clear, John2 Jul 2013 #52

Because they don't care about charging her... Pelican Jul 2013 #57

Just because Trayvon may have been on top at one point does not mean he was the aggressor. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #61

He had evidence on his side... Pelican Jul 2013 #63

In your eyes. Many Zimmerman witnesses were not credible at all. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #65

Even if you don't believe the witnesses... Pelican Jul 2013 #67

Just because Trayvon may have been on top does not prove who was the aggressor. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #69

Great... Pelican Jul 2013 #72

Zimmerman is not innocent. He killed Trayvon remember! Even he admitted that. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #73

You are very confused... Pelican Jul 2013 #157

Tell me what are you views on politics my friend? Are you left, right, or center? hrmjustin Jul 2013 #158

Zimmy was guilty of killing Trayvon. He was not innocent. uppityperson Jul 2013 #101

there are a variety of other scenarios that can fit this evidence kwassa Jul 2013 #85

"Could have" isn't evidence YarnAddict Jul 2013 #105

You're wrong. Eyewitness testimony is often wildly inaccurate. kwassa Jul 2013 #138

I certainly never said he was innocent YarnAddict Jul 2013 #142

The main witness for the prosecution is dead. kwassa Jul 2013 #147

The most obvious, undeniable racism was on the part of the cops XemaSab Jul 2013 #148

I'm not sure what the cops motivation for all this is. kwassa Jul 2013 #149

"Zimmerman provided a minute by minute breakdown of his actions"? HAhahahahahahahahahahaha uppityperson Jul 2013 #98

how do you shoot someone who's on top of you in the heart without getting their blood on HiPointDem Jul 2013 #177

Two things... Pelican Jul 2013 #179

You see the pictures of Trayvon's body? XemaSab Jul 2013 #186

"Get off, get off" YarnAddict Jul 2013 #88

I would suggest you check again, she stated the "Get off, get off" during her deposition as well... Spazito Jul 2013 #90

Oops! Just checked. YarnAddict Jul 2013 #96

When she spoke to Crump, she wasn't under oath, she spoke to him on the phone... Spazito Jul 2013 #104

Didn't she just say in an interview that she thought Trayvon threw the first punch? n/t cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #143

No, not that I have read, heard or seen in her testimony, interview... Spazito Jul 2013 #155

There is NO way to know... cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #3

I see you and Obnoxious Smugness have already met..... (nt) Paladin Jul 2013 #5

Let me introduce you John2 Jul 2013 #11

I'm all ears (well, eyes actually). cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #13

Look up John2 Jul 2013 #27

If i had to guess, I'd guess yes. egduj Jul 2013 #4

Great post Tutonic Jul 2013 #6

She's black? I observed the 2 911 callers who lived closest to the SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #30

Yeah, he is the only one claiming those details. John2 Jul 2013 #36

I found Diamond Eugene to be very inconsistent. Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2013 #46

because black people are violent & decide to murder strange white people with their bare hands HiPointDem Jul 2013 #178

My guess is this scenario: SoCalDem Jul 2013 #8

That scenario John2 Jul 2013 #14

GZ's nose could have been injured from the avebury Jul 2013 #16

for the recoil from a small pistol to break a nose Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #45

And isn't is just too bad they didn't test Zimmy for powder burns or what drugs he was on? uppityperson Jul 2013 #100

It was a Kel-Tec 9mm, not a Desert Eagle .50 davepc Jul 2013 #60

Would an elbow hit cause a lesser nose bleed than a broken nose? SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #34

Luckily for me, I have no idea SoCalDem Jul 2013 #35

Hundred billion +++++ Duer 157099 Jul 2013 #48

Very plausible. mzmolly Jul 2013 #199

Zimmerman's words and actions.... HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #10

I agree. My kingdom for Zimmerman to have taken the stand... SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #21

that gutless coward was NEVER going to take the stand Skittles Jul 2013 #32

Thanks everyone who responded to my comments in a thoughtful manner SaveAmerica Jul 2013 #20

i believe Z was definitely guilty of "assault," if not the original "battery." Definitions: WinkyDink Jul 2013 #29

of course he did - he was the aggressor Skittles Jul 2013 #31

If it was so clear YarnAddict Jul 2013 #114

sorry not everything is on camera for you Skittles Jul 2013 #115

Yes, it's too bad YarnAddict Jul 2013 #119

this rant is for you Skittles Jul 2013 #120

I'm not defending Zimmerman YarnAddict Jul 2013 #125

And what exactly, do you consider "evidence"? Zoeisright Jul 2013 #197

Evidence: YarnAddict Jul 2013 #201

Seems like it, sadly we can only get one side of the story. Rex Jul 2013 #33

Dollars to doughnuts libodem Jul 2013 #41

Trayvon was on top when he was killed XemaSab Jul 2013 #83

How do you really know? libodem Jul 2013 #103

His clothes were several inches from his body when he was shot XemaSab Jul 2013 #111

There was an extemely credible YarnAddict Jul 2013 #118

The PROSECUTION has said Martin was on top Lurks Often Jul 2013 #126

Did Tayvon actually hit Zimmerman? SwissTony Jul 2013 #59

The CSI tech testified that an absence of DNA is not considered evidence either way Lurks Often Jul 2013 #127

So, the ME didn't do his/her job... SwissTony Jul 2013 #132

Certainly a possibility, but we'll never know. Lurks Often Jul 2013 #133

OK, thanks for that. n/t SwissTony Jul 2013 #136

No one can say. MrSlayer Jul 2013 #78

Jaentel's own words made it clear Vattel Jul 2013 #79

And Z man told so many lies he wouldn't MaeScott Jul 2013 #182

Are we still doing this? flvegan Jul 2013 #107

i believe he did. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #116

Probably gollygee Jul 2013 #122

Of course he did. Why else would he have pursued Martin unless to detain him? killbotfactory Jul 2013 #131

The thing that was missing in the trial AndyA Jul 2013 #184

He probably did feel threatened YarnAddict Jul 2013 #185

Zimmerman also had ample time to avoid a physical confrontation AndyA Jul 2013 #189

You might want to re-read Florida law on self-defense Lurks Often Jul 2013 #190

I don't need to re-read Florida law on self defense AndyA Jul 2013 #191

You should because Florida law does not support what you said Lurks Often Jul 2013 #192

That's your interpretation of Florida law AndyA Jul 2013 #193

It's unfortunate that you find the facts troublesome Lurks Often Jul 2013 #195

Facts YarnAddict Jul 2013 #194

Of course. Zoeisright Jul 2013 #196