General Discussion

cali

(114,904 posts)

87. no, it's actually not true

Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:24 AM

Jul 2013

Have you read Peter Gay's book on the subject?

http://www.amazon.com/Enlightenment-Science-Freedom-Vol-v/dp/0393313662/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374416032&sr=1-2

And no, of course the founding fathers didn't believe in the kind of egalitarianism that is sort of kinda maybe part of modern democracy, but they sure believed in extending beyond the upper class. It's a mistake, I believe, to apply 20th and 21st century thought and values to 18th century people. It just doesn't make any sense.

I think Hedges and I have arrived at some of the same conclusions, sure, but I don't feel a kinship with his detestation of liberals as a group and I disagree with his conclusions about where we are as far as the working class rising up.

On another note, I always enjoy discussing things with you, Douglas. Whether we agree or disagree, you always provide food for thought, well stated.

Btw, have you ever read E.M. Forster's Two Cheers for Democracy? The political essays in it were written as a liberal polemic in the years between 1936 and 1950. Remarkably prescient and so beautifully written.

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Highlight:

Chris Hedges: America is a Tinderbox [View all] rugger1869 Jul 2013 OP

k+r ...nt TeeYiYi Jul 2013 #1

No offense, but it's tinderbox. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #2

More offended that this thread has generated two comments about a spelling error... rugger1869 Jul 2013 #3

More excitable rhetoric from Hedges. randome Jul 2013 #4

Liberals aren't the radical left. ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2013 #11

Okay. randome Jul 2013 #13

I see what you mean. ananda Jul 2013 #16

Indeed Turbineguy Jul 2013 #36

The radical left is as gone as the great tribes of American Indians. Enthusiast Jul 2013 #33

Wrong: "'vigilante' refers to a lone individual." Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #53

Could he have meant: taking it upon yourself to rid the world of evil liberals and gays and you rainy Jul 2013 #58

vigilante can refer to a group MNBrewer Jul 2013 #91

Good thought provoking video. Cleita Jul 2013 #5

Occupy is not dead mick063 Jul 2013 #18

Disagree with some of this.... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #45

You interpret "far left" from a historical, academic perspective mick063 Jul 2013 #48

Then it's up to us on the far left .... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #88

Yeah, ProSense Jul 2013 #6

I agree with you about the last 2 Hedges paragraphs you posted. octoberlib Jul 2013 #10

I Agree Completely With Hedges - Continuing To Endorse The DLC Democrats Is A Road To Failure cantbeserious Jul 2013 #35

Agreed. I have lived in countries with a left, the US tsuki Jul 2013 #51

Excellent article. octoberlib Jul 2013 #7

good grief. histrionic a little? cali Jul 2013 #8

You underestimate the frustration of the working poor. ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2013 #12

oh no I don't. there is no indication that the working poor cali Jul 2013 #14

Excuse me? YoungDemCA Jul 2013 #17

the working poor are just as pacified by the distractions cali Jul 2013 #77

Even if that's true, what does pointing that out accomplish? YoungDemCA Jul 2013 #93

Are you a progressive? ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2013 #20

I suggest you read my posts here before passing judgment cali Jul 2013 #72

Do you know secondvariety Jul 2013 #24

hi. I'm on foodstamps and medicaid and recently disabled. cali Jul 2013 #73

Sorry to hear that. secondvariety Jul 2013 #74

You are absolutely CORRECT! jtuck004 Jul 2013 #37

Maybe they just feel they have more to lose in taking a stand now... rugger1869 Jul 2013 #66

OK, sure. But first, "they" is us. jtuck004 Jul 2013 #71

What about the fast food workers going on strike? That is an obvious indication. Skeeter Barnes Jul 2013 #49

Maybe watching sitcoms IS the revolution n/t leftstreet Jul 2013 #52

K&R LuvNewcastle Jul 2013 #9

Me.? I think he nails it other than a few comments. Bonhomme Richard Jul 2013 #15

the difference the last 25 years: the left completely ignored the right's best weapon- talk radio- certainot Jul 2013 #19

I think climate change will herald the death knell of the right. randome Jul 2013 #21

i hope you're right, but when we get to that point their 'supreme scientists' like limbaugh certainot Jul 2013 #43

Supreme scientist Limbaugh. I wish that was hyperbole. randome Jul 2013 #47

John F Kennedy... roamer65 Jul 2013 #22

Hedges: "Who was the last liberal president we had? It was Richard Nixon" ucrdem Jul 2013 #23

You forgot the rest of the quote. ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2013 #25

Fear is never a good position from which to govern. randome Jul 2013 #28

"When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people... polichick Jul 2013 #32

Yeah, yeah, I get tired of trying to live our lives according to 18th century politicians. randome Jul 2013 #34

The rest of the quote is worse. He's saying elections are meaningless if not actually dangerous: ucrdem Jul 2013 #29

They really are irrelevant in an accurate sense. Bonhomme Richard Jul 2013 #39

"Dear Mr Lincoln: I joined the Union Army to end slavery, not to fight over some silly cornfields struggle4progress Jul 2013 #44

? n/t Bonhomme Richard Jul 2013 #46

It doesn't make sense either to regard elections as the whole struggle or as completely unrelated struggle4progress Jul 2013 #57

Now, see, chervilant Jul 2013 #79

No really that is not what he is getting at. Warren Stupidity Jul 2013 #89

Good call! randome Jul 2013 #26

thanks! ucrdem Jul 2013 #30

I disagree with him on that one. roamer65 Jul 2013 #27

Hedges is right wing???? grasswire Jul 2013 #55

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #64

Hedges is an Alex Jones favorite.More and more sufrommich Jul 2013 #84

It is no coincidence that the enemies of the Reich Enthusiast Jul 2013 #31

More impotent calls for a revolution while disdaining the geek tragedy Jul 2013 #38

"Philosophers have SOLVED the world -- but the real problem is to CHANGE it" struggle4progress Jul 2013 #40

Damn! That's well written! randome Jul 2013 #41

thanx struggle4progress Jul 2013 #60

Perhaps unrelated to your post, but it inspired some thinking mick063 Jul 2013 #61

Excellent post. nt Bobbie Jo Jul 2013 #90

I clicked on this thinking it was about wildfires NickB79 Jul 2013 #42

Recommend...It's an interesting watch, for sure. KoKo Jul 2013 #50

oh well, i guess we are really fucked madrchsod Jul 2013 #54

How comical.... RagAss Jul 2013 #56

Anyone get sick of this guy? Narkos Jul 2013 #59

Maybe for some... malokvale77 Jul 2013 #78

We aren't even close yet. rrneck Jul 2013 #62

Oh good Lord. I couldn't get through the first paragraph. Skip Intro Jul 2013 #63

it's sad to me. It's not even a decent polemic cali Jul 2013 #80

Hedges is a fucking goober. Warren DeMontague Jul 2013 #65

Having achieved decent standards of equality, working and living conditions... bhikkhu Jul 2013 #67

"the radical left won" marions ghost Jul 2013 #68

Women's rights, child labor laws, the weekend, a 40 hour work week, civil rights protections, bhikkhu Jul 2013 #69

You can go ahead and celebrate marions ghost Jul 2013 #70

excellent interview with one of the great iconoclastic thinkers and real journalist Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #75

I can't take him seriously most of the time anymore and cali Jul 2013 #81

I would not use the words uplifting to describe his writings - But I do think they are for the most Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #82

I don't care about uplifting. I do care about facts and truth- the cali Jul 2013 #83

well his background as you know is as a seminary graduate training to be a minister Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #85

no, it's actually not true cali Jul 2013 #87

It's not just Hedges. Skeeter Barnes Jul 2013 #92

k and r Berlum Jul 2013 #76

K&R. (nt) Paladin Jul 2013 #86