General Discussion

TheKentuckian

(26,314 posts)

248. I believe the fake ass wannabe cop attempted to detain Martin until the cops came

Sun Jul 21, 2013, 01:31 PM

Jul 2013

and Martin reasonably defended himself, wannabe ended up in the disadvantage, panicked and shot.

This is how the two got close enough for a physical conflict.

I can't prove it though and neither did the state.

I think too many are incapable or unwilling to separate what they believe from what is proven and cannot or will not discern the difference between evidence supporting a conclusion and evidence proving one.

I also tend to think folks believe that presumption of innocence is simply not assuming guilt, they cannot or will not think of a subject as innocent, often citing such thinking as blaming the victim/taking away their presumption of innocence (despite the victim not being the one on trial), failing to properly compartmentalize and isolate the situation and prosecutors take full advantage pushing emotion and twisting empathy to get juries to focus on the victim rather than the facts of the case because their job is to win not find truth.

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] XemaSab Jul 2013 OP

None. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #1

Didn't Rachael say Zimmerman pushed Trayvon? rainy Jul 2013 #76

Yes she said Trayvon said get off me.... MaeScott Jul 2013 #118

She wasn't there. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #213

So the bullet did not hit Martin? Rex Jul 2013 #203

The OP's implication was with his fists. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #223

No but if Trayvon was shot when his shirt was really loose on his body that implies applegrove Jul 2013 #2

If Trayvon was leaning over Zimmerman, where were Trayvon's hands? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #69

Yup. So many questions. We'll never know applegrove Jul 2013 #72

There were stains on Trayvon's pants knees and Zimmerman's jacket back. ksoze Jul 2013 #94

Have you seen that photo of a dead Trayvon lying on his back in the grass? kaiden Jul 2013 #110

The defense put into evidence photos of the pants wercal Jul 2013 #117

Could the stains also have come if Zimmerman had been standing up JDPriestly Jul 2013 #209

There are a thousand 'what ifs' wercal Jul 2013 #226

The bullet entered Martin's chest on the left side and tracked slightly to the right Lurks Often Jul 2013 #230

Do your research - the evidence pics are clear ksoze Jul 2013 #121

The little cartoon that the defense made showed a very unatural position for trayvon. bushisanidiot Jul 2013 #137

Well, they did actually challenge it. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #138

Zimmerman might have been pulling on Trayvon's shirt. yardwork Jul 2013 #81

If there was any evidence of that pintobean Jul 2013 #84

The prosecution didn't present a lot of important evidence. yardwork Jul 2013 #87

What evidence that supported their case pintobean Jul 2013 #97

The racist Sanford PD never COLLECTED evidence from GZ, only TM. LaydeeBug Jul 2013 #107

They most certainly collected evidence from Zimmerman Lurks Often Jul 2013 #143

I wonder if there was any fiber analysis taken on Zimmerman's hands and fingernails. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #145

Agreed, I do remember seeing a photo of Zimmerman's hands Lurks Often Jul 2013 #147

Oh They did? What was GZ blood alcohol content then? The results of GZ's drug tests were *WHAT* now? LaydeeBug Jul 2013 #173

I've given you a link that proves you are wrong Lurks Often Jul 2013 #175

If I'm *WRONG*, what was GZ blood alcohol level the night of the murder? Drugs? LaydeeBug Jul 2013 #187

They never tested Zimmerman for drugs, just the dead body. Rex Jul 2013 #195

You apparently don't seem to understand the legal requirements Lurks Often Jul 2013 #220

Wouldn't the police normally do alcohol and drug tests on a shooter rather than the victim doc03 Jul 2013 #227

No Lurks Often Jul 2013 #232

Maybe like stalking an Innocent teenager and murdering him would be an indication doc03 Jul 2013 #238

You need to research Florida law Lurks Often Jul 2013 #239

The prosecution blew the trial on purpose I think, they were lots of arguments they could doc03 Jul 2013 #240

Or the prosecution had a crappy case where the majority of witness testimony Lurks Often Jul 2013 #241

& guess what? There was NOTHING that indicated drug and/or alcohol use in that dead boy Ecumenist Jul 2013 #258

Toxicology reports are standard procedure in an autopsy. n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #260

AND Alcohol and drug testing is STANDARD after car accidents but NOONE thought it made sense to Ecumenist Jul 2013 #262

Police need probable cause for alcohol & drug testing Lurks Often Jul 2013 #263

Oh, I'm sorry...running off the road is probable cause but shooting and KILLING a 17 yo kid Ecumenist Jul 2013 #264

You certainly appear to be confused Lurks Often Jul 2013 #265

I'm NOT confused considering that this has happened to people I know. They've gotten into Ecumenist Jul 2013 #266

Did the cops force them to take blood tests or merely asked them? Lurks Often Jul 2013 #267

Yeah, sure I'm wrong and I'm lying about the "Probable cause", cuz I just like to lie. Ecumenist Jul 2013 #268

Like you know and where there? Rex Jul 2013 #244

Neither of us were there Lurks Often Jul 2013 #247

What about the prescription drugs he was on? brush Jul 2013 #251

You'll have to take that up with the prosecution, they apparently thought it wasn't relevant. n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #252

You can't convict on what "might have been". GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #93

What happened is that a man shot an unarmed kid yardwork Jul 2013 #96

Unarmed does not mean harmless. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #104

But it could mean that, do you deny that possibility? Rex Jul 2013 #196

Doesn't matter who was the initial agressor. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #235

That is not true at all. Rex Jul 2013 #245

I have been trained in self-defense law. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #249

Here is the Florida law Lurks Often Jul 2013 #250

You know by your opinion, a toddler can be unarmed but not Harmless.....How many Ecumenist Jul 2013 #261

It is disgusting the hero worship some have for Zimmerman. Rex Jul 2013 #198

I must have missed something. Why did his shirt have to be really loose? jobycom Jul 2013 #217

Dr Di Maio testified that the gun was touching the clothing Lurks Often Jul 2013 #234

Okay, you know what? I've heard the meme OVER AND OVER AGAIN how there was NO WAY Ecumenist Jul 2013 #254

You'll have to discuss that with the prosecution Lurks Often Jul 2013 #255

Yeah well,, there alot the prosecution fucked up and it seemed to ALOT of people that they were Ecumenist Jul 2013 #256

Or the prosecution's case was never that strong to begin with, Lurks Often Jul 2013 #259

Is there any evidence that Trayvon hit Zimmerman? Control-Z Jul 2013 #3

Yes. Eyewitness testimony during the trial. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #12

No, there wasn't. nt uppityperson Jul 2013 #18

What do you call John Good? GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #22

Good just saw repeated punch like motions towards Zimmermans head... Pelican Jul 2013 #25

Trayvon was defending himself from this monster. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #38

And 2 other witnesses put Zimmy on top doing the punching. uppityperson Jul 2013 #40

Good was the only one that gave compelling testimony... Pelican Jul 2013 #42

Almost everybody here wants to throw that one away. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #48

That does not say who started it. Zimmerman was following Trayvon and Trayvon had to defend himself. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #49

That's exactly the point... Pelican Jul 2013 #61

Do you have any sympathy for Trayvon? hrmjustin Jul 2013 #62

I don't know what happened.... Pelican Jul 2013 #64

"if he started it"? What. The. Fuck. No sympathy for a 17 who got shot dead "if he started it". uppityperson Jul 2013 #66

I'm honest enough to say I don't know what happened during the entire confrontation... Pelican Jul 2013 #68

"If he started it then I don't" was your statement. You have no sympathy "if he started it". uppityperson Jul 2013 #151

You were so close... Pelican Jul 2013 #153

You are not meaning Trayvon "started it" but if he "overreacted", did a "stupid thing" when felt uppityperson Jul 2013 #157

He wasn't carrying a gun BainsBane Jul 2013 #95

Yup. uppityperson Jul 2013 #149

that's exactly how i feel Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #129

IMO, Zimmerman started when he exited his vehicle with a loaded weapon and started following Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #135

Morally or ethically you may think it's wrong... Pelican Jul 2013 #140

The gun doesn't scare me. What scares me is the fact that one person can follow another person Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #146

Zimmerman started this IMO. Trayvon is the one who deserves sympathy. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #164

Trails are supposed to be about facts, not sympathy. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #89

The trial is over BainsBane Jul 2013 #100

I am discussing facts of the trial, not emotions. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #105

That wasn't the question put to you BainsBane Jul 2013 #106

Your excuse that you're not operating from emotion is BS BainsBane Jul 2013 #108

It is after the trial now, do you have sympathy for Trayvon? hrmjustin Jul 2013 #162

There was NO Zimmerman DNA on Trayvon's hands or anywhere on his dead body. kaiden Jul 2013 #111

This never made sense to me... Pelican Jul 2013 #123

Which was explained during the trial Lurks Often Jul 2013 #144

"Compelling testimony" for you maybe. Mora and Mrs Manalo said Z was on top. uppityperson Jul 2013 #55

The prosecution conceded Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #113

Z admits he got on top of TM AFTER the shot. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #114

And you trust Zimmy's word. We understand. You've been VERY clear that you trust Zimmy. uppityperson Jul 2013 #148

It's not a matter of trusting Zimmerman OwnedByCats Jul 2013 #156

Merely pointing out that a witness is confirming Z's account. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #161

IiRC, John Good never said it was towards Zimmerman's head... nenagh Jul 2013 #60

There is a difference between... Pelican Jul 2013 #63

Exactly. And the Defense continued using 'Ground and Pound' all during the trial.... nenagh Jul 2013 #70

The jury was racist BainsBane Jul 2013 #103

That doesn't even make sense.... Pelican Jul 2013 #120

Save it until Zimmerman's next murder trail BainsBane Jul 2013 #26

Your answer does not change the fact that they were prosecution eyewitnesses. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #28

It also doesn't change the fact that most of those saw nothing of the struggle and the one who did uppityperson Jul 2013 #31

So TM was just picking grass from around Z's head? GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #35

Trayvon was defending himself from this monster. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #36

Undetermined. 2 witnesses put Zimmy on top, why would Trayvon have been picking grass on the bottom? uppityperson Jul 2013 #39

Z did get on top, after the shot. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #41

The night he was brought in the video looked like he didn't have any... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #47

There wasn't time to falsify the injuries. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #50

You don't get it. He was out for 66 days. That was when it could have been done. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #56

Maybe this will help Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2013 #73

This just backs up my contention that the prosecution was helping the defense... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #74

You're right. I am surprised. wercal Jul 2013 #119

Are you telling me this is the first time you ever heard of corruption? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #154

Stop. Hold one. wercal Jul 2013 #158

LOL! I didn't say public officials.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #168

No you can't just do a take back wercal Jul 2013 #171

I said the cops lied, the DA lied, the whole trial was a sham, there was witness intimidation... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #176

Everyone lied wercal Jul 2013 #184

Because naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #186

You've already been exposed wercal Jul 2013 #188

Z's father was never a judge. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #253

It was to protect the city from the multi-million dollar lawsuit by the Martin family. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #192

That doesn't make any sense naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #201

Uh huh,..and an internal investigation of the police by the police exonerating the police is rare. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #204

That's not the point: naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #205

Raise your hand if you know the city manager personally wercal Jul 2013 #225

On 9/11? Just look at the history.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #229

What witness intimidation? naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #191

Am I the only one with a memory? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #194

I have no recollection of that naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #197

Use "The Google".... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #206

Again naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #207

Do I have to do this all day? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #208

LOL naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #210

What's funny is to see someone believing this whole thing was a search for the truth. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #211

Well, naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #212

You mean my method of having a memory.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #214

Now you are just making stuff up. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #163

You mean about the Sanford Police engaging in Witness Intimidation? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #167

YEP, CLEARLY! I remember that VERY clearly. I just don't believe that it was above board Ecumenist Jul 2013 #257

Except naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #155

"Do you believe there was no fight at all?" Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #169

And.. naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #170

I think Zimmerman got out of the truck with his gun after being told not to,... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #179

Ok I believe all that too naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #180

Seriously? I really doubt there was a fight. The sound on the tape could be pleading. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #182

So, naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #183

Forenics. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #174

Stop right there with "Even the prosecution"... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #177

Anything is possible naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #181

That's what the Feds will look for. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #190

Now you are off into conspiracy theory land. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #231

They didn't do it to help him. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #233

I am not going to discuss woo-woo. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #236

Then go research a history you missed on Southern "Justice". Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #237

Or that Zimmerman is a killer BainsBane Jul 2013 #46

Eyewitness testimony is very often unreliable Ghost of Tom Joad Jul 2013 #125

That is true. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #128

Most of them saw nothing. Fail. uppityperson Jul 2013 #30

But when you put all the pieces together... GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #34

Selma Mora and Jeannee Manalo said they thought Zimmy was on top, clothing and skin matched Zimmy. uppityperson Jul 2013 #37

Good was watching while on the phone. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #44

He was not on the phone while watching. Good had one foot outside the patio door.. nenagh Jul 2013 #65

Listen to his 911 call. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #172

OK, I missed that... Thanks... I didn't listen to his 911 call.. nenagh Jul 2013 #185

I don't think that Good is a credible witness. yardwork Jul 2013 #82

Eyewitness testimony aside... Pelican Jul 2013 #88

Bullshit. Zimmerman murdered a child. yardwork Jul 2013 #90

A corpse by itself is not evidence... Pelican Jul 2013 #91

You're forgetting the physical evidence that contradicted his version of events. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #134

While that is closer... Pelican Jul 2013 #139

Zimmerman still had to put forth a plausible theory of self-defense. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #141

It would have helped... Pelican Jul 2013 #142

IOW, you throw away any witness that you don't like. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #98

You can throw all the dust in the air but the dead child remains yardwork Jul 2013 #99

They are beyond digusting and a waste of time. Rex Jul 2013 #246

Well if Good is not a credible witness OwnedByCats Jul 2013 #160

Correct. All members of the condo association had a conflict of interest yardwork Jul 2013 #216

... Zimmerman's actions lead directly to Martin's death. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #92

You're telling me they wouldn't lie to protect one of their own? Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #165

Exactly. Zoeisright Jul 2013 #57

People shouldn't play with that trash...they should be shunned alcibiades_mystery Jul 2013 #86

Give it up Hugabear Jul 2013 #4

+1 BainsBane Jul 2013 #10

The whole case was based on self defense XemaSab Jul 2013 #15

What about Trayvon's right to self defense? TDale313 Jul 2013 #54

No. He was black, remember? Black men never have the right to self defense. They don't even have a Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #130

With bullets. n/t Scootaloo Jul 2013 #5

Yep. The OP is pretty depraved. n/t demmiblue Jul 2013 #9

Yet another victory lap? HappyMe Jul 2013 #6

I don't think it matters anymore snooper2 Jul 2013 #7

Best piece of evidence is this: Galraedia Jul 2013 #8

You should have been the prosecutor BainsBane Jul 2013 #11

You still have a problem with the five eyewitness. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #13

Actually it does fit... Galraedia Jul 2013 #59

wtf is wrong with the jury and prosecution. Whisp Jul 2013 #16

I think the jury made the correct decision... Captain Stern Jul 2013 #77

Of course Trayvon was pursued by Zimmerman yardwork Jul 2013 #85

+1 uponit7771 Jul 2013 #136

+1 Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #166

With a bullet. Rex Jul 2013 #14

�� Whisp Jul 2013 #17

Yes. RobertEarl Jul 2013 #19

he is Dead JI7 Jul 2013 #20

yes there is rufus dog Jul 2013 #21

he did say on the phone that they always get away JI7 Jul 2013 #23

The stupidity burns rufus dog Jul 2013 #27

Of course, the big friggin hole in his chest vs. a few scrapes. Hoyt Jul 2013 #24

No..he just murdered a kid through the heart with a bullet.. HipChick Jul 2013 #29

He's not haunted. Mariana Jul 2013 #43

Zimmerman is a sociopath Skittles Jul 2013 #52

I don't bruise easily. In fights with my most angry brother (who does), this sucked. joshcryer Jul 2013 #32

Hit him with what? A bullet? A cantelope? A bunny? uppityperson Jul 2013 #33

There SHOULD be if his first choice wasn't to murder Trayvon DevonRex Jul 2013 #45

This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Jul 2013 #51

It is possible that Zimmerman's head was scratched by the METAL sprinkler head... Tx4obama Jul 2013 #53

The Kel-Tec PF9 does not have a strong recoil. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #112

Zimmerman could have been hit by a meteor as well naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #122

Well said wercal Jul 2013 #127

"Zimmerman's head was scratched by the METAL sprinkler head..." wercal Jul 2013 #126

Please reread the text in the comment Tx4obama Jul 2013 #218

I don't see any 'possible' or 'could have' in this statement: wercal Jul 2013 #228

This will be my last post to you. Zoeisright Jul 2013 #58

Even the defense expert, Dr. DiMaio, had to admit that on the stand. [n/t] stranger81 Jul 2013 #71

Yes. The bullet. nt msanthrope Jul 2013 #67

YES YES YES Rachael said Zimmerman pushed Trayvon rainy Jul 2013 #75

You can't come to a fist fight with a gun. Loki Jul 2013 #78

If only we could ask Trayvon. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #79

Only from the mouth of Zimmerman chelsea0011 Jul 2013 #80

Your scumbag pal... 99Forever Jul 2013 #83

zimmerman's bullet hit trayvon's heart... spanone Jul 2013 #101

with a bulllet? Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #102

0. Is there any evidence that Zimmerman hit Trayvon? TheLion Jul 2013 #109

Reading the responses to this thread, Mojo Electro Jul 2013 #115

You are strawmaning like crazy, Mojo. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #124

Thank You!!! The verdict was absolutely DEAD WRONG SeaLyons Jul 2013 #152

Geat post. Mojo Electro Jul 2013 #159

........... Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #178

Well said Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #132

Thank you for that reasoned and thoughtful post. -nt Bonx Jul 2013 #150

Which is uglier, calling a racist a racist or a racist being racist? Eom uppityperson Jul 2013 #215

IMO actually being racist is uglier. Mojo Electro Jul 2013 #224

A few things that some folks are missing - why civil rights DO count Tx4obama Jul 2013 #222

From what I've heard, the blood loss from the bullet wound would have stopped bruising. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #116

This message was self-deleted by its author Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #131

You mean with something besides a bullet? Arkansas Granny Jul 2013 #133

I happen to think Zimmy grabbed Trayvon and tried to restrain him - that's what provoked the fight. kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #189

I agree naaman fletcher Jul 2013 #193

I do to, since we know he called to someone after the shooting Rex Jul 2013 #199

I don't believe there was a fight... Sancho Jul 2013 #200

you mean besides with that bullet? Beaverhausen Jul 2013 #202

aint that the truth. nt La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2013 #219

Nope. Just that he murdered him. nt jobycom Jul 2013 #221

Unrec. n/t demmiblue Jul 2013 #242

Yes, there was a gunshot wound in Trayvon's dead body. Jamastiene Jul 2013 #243

I believe the fake ass wannabe cop attempted to detain Martin until the cops came TheKentuckian Jul 2013 #248