General Discussion

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)

89. First ... based on the vote count ...

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 01:10 PM

Jul 2013

"We Democrats" didn't seem to be very unified. And neither did the GOP.

One article put it this way ...

The vote was surprisingly close, with broad bipartisan support in favor of the amendment, and equally strong support opposed; this is a vote that split parties. The final tally was 94 Republicans and 111 Democrats in favor, and 134 Republicans and 83 Democrats opposed.

More Democrats tended to be FOR, and more Republicans tended to be AGAINST. Not a surprise.

Setting that aside ...

I'm not a big fan of broad generalities like ... "a step towards ending Bush 'security state' policies?"

I say that because I think the details matter.

I'd have been fine if this Bill had passed. And I'm also not surprised that it failed to pass. I also don't think it puts much of a dent in the "security state" some claim exists. I say that because meta data queries aren't a great way to go after specific individuals. If you know exactly who you want to target already, you're going to be able to get a more focused warrant, one that allows you access to far more than just some phone records.

I think what kept this bill from passing was that it prevents the use of call meta data to help identify an individual who you don't already have the name of, and it does so, in apparently all cases. The bill doesn't get into why meta data is useful, or why and when it isn't. Being more specific might have generated more FOR votes.

I think what congress could do is outline a set of situations in which using meta data to find an unknown individual is allowed, and create rules and guidance for the courts around that. Not that I think this congress is capable of doing that.

I suspect that Boehner only allowed this to come up for a vote because he knew that no matter how many Dems voted FOR the amendment, he could get sufficient GOP members to vote against it if needed. Now, the members of both side can go home and say that they voted the way they think their constituents wanted them to with little risk one way or the other.

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Democratic establishment unmasked: prime defenders of NSA bulk spying [View all] Catherina Jul 2013 OP

The Cheer Squad isn't going to like this article. n/t Le Taz Hot Jul 2013 #1

It's by Glenn Greenwald muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #5

"Or post a picture of Alex Jones." Heh heh.... truth2power Jul 2013 #45

One thing they will absolutely NOT do is address the substance of this atricle. bvar22 Jul 2013 #95

wyden says questionseverything Jul 2013 #110

If they do any of that, you should post this picture: Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #63

There are good reasons not to like the article --- having NOTHING to do with the NSA karynnj Jul 2013 #6

Here--You need this for your post: Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #14

That does NOT change the part I referred to -- at the very start of the article. karynnj Jul 2013 #33

You know what a strawman argument is, yes? TiberiusB Jul 2013 #80

Yes I do - and my comment was not one. It addressed a statement that GG put up front karynnj Jul 2013 #84

Let's review... TiberiusB Jul 2013 #115

The subject of the thread was the Greenwald article karynnj Jul 2013 #141

Progress TiberiusB Jul 2013 #151

As I said, there is no rule on what part of the op can be discussed karynnj Jul 2013 #171

well argued, karynnj hopemountain Jul 2013 #174

That's a particularly good representation. Love the expression.. truth2power Jul 2013 #47

You nailed it. ProSense Jul 2013 #16

Greenwald focuses on personal liberty and the national security state NoMoreWarNow Jul 2013 #24

a post without one link grasswire Jul 2013 #58

Greenwald isnt the only person saying this. And yes the Republicans fight like hell against rhett o rick Jul 2013 #26

The WAY he said it ignores that on the economic/social issues Obama karynnj Jul 2013 #31

Of course the Republicans give a lot of lip service to objecting to every thing Obama rhett o rick Jul 2013 #81

The Republicans have tried as hard as they could to stop almost everything he has done karynnj Jul 2013 #87

I am not falling for the "his hands are tied" excuse. He runs the Executive Branch which could be rhett o rick Jul 2013 #92

"What color to paint the Green Room" Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #66

The problem isn't that Republicans are for those things. They always have been. BlueStreak Jul 2013 #90

I wonder how the GOP will vote when it comes to.... raindaddy Jul 2013 #32

looked forward to the new transparent, populist administration RegexReader Jul 2013 #43

Which things that 'drive most liberals' does GG not share? sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #53

That's great. I'm here to support the Wyden-Conyers-Sanders-Amash-Conyers football team, not them. Catherina Jul 2013 #10

" just change their uniforms and come back to cheer for the next corporate sponsor. " bvar22 Jul 2013 #116

This message was self-deleted by its author silvershadow Jul 2013 #18

K&R Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #2

K & R dipsydoodle Jul 2013 #3

"tired of, and immune to, the relentless fear-mongering" by Glenn Greenwald FarCenter Jul 2013 #4

Yes I can see how challenging it might be. Life would be so much better if we didnt have these rhett o rick Jul 2013 #29

In NJ, the two Repubs who did not support the President were Scott Garrett and Chris Smith FarCenter Jul 2013 #49

And the most radical reactionaries support Obama. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #69

There has been no massive violation against the Constitution FarCenter Jul 2013 #74

Keep your head in the sand. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #76

Bachmann is pretty much as fascist as far as I know. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #106

Oh, I agree. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #107

Yes certainly both apply. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #108

It is certainly looking like a coalition ... Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #112

Yes the coalition of the defenders of the corporate state. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #113

But then what will we do? Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #114

probably we will make sweet infographics and post them on web forums. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #117

I agree with your points actually. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #119

Yeah it seems to be a personality trait. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #123

I can understand economic and political conditions ... Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #126

I'll copy and paste something from another thread... limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #129

One doesn't even have to be destroyed or disenchanted to get it. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #131

right. that's empathy. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #132

Yes, and without having read your link ... Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #134

That article is kind of long. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #136

Take it easy. The book is available for free and the link is in the Socialist Progressives group. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #137

In an environment where the Republican Party has pledged not to rhett o rick Jul 2013 #77

isn't american idol or honey boo boo on? frylock Jul 2013 #46

Fear-mongering. Yes, absolutely... truth2power Jul 2013 #50

here's what that immunity looks like markiv Jul 2013 #68

Vote 'em out, and ProSense Jul 2013 #7

Vote 'em out, and JimDandy Jul 2013 #20

At what point are you going to put down the pom poms? Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #70

ROTFLMAO! Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #149

Unfortunately, yes. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #150

Absolutely! I would never try to dissuade anyone from tilting at worthy windmills. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #152

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls! Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #153

And there it is: unmasked, and it isn't pretty. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #8

I hope so because we "don't have a functioning democracy at this current time" Catherina Jul 2013 #12

But Carter isn't a real Democrat, don't you know? Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #73

"the new breed of small government conservatives" ucrdem Jul 2013 #9

Whee! Guilt by association! JoeyT Jul 2013 #22

"the new breed of small government conservatives" yeoman6987 Jul 2013 #27

Here are some other notable individuals who have worked with the Cato Institute: Maedhros Jul 2013 #82

and the best part... TiberiusB Jul 2013 #125

yep, the primary reason the apologists are all wet about BHO's responsibility for and ownership stupidicus Jul 2013 #11

The love of representatives of the 1%, allied with Bush lizards like Bachmann, is disturbing n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #17

no doubt catherina stupidicus Jul 2013 #38

Not just the Obama Admin, but almost half of the Democratic members of the House! :( reformist2 Jul 2013 #13

I love how Bvar puts it all the time: "By their fruits shall ye know them" Catherina Jul 2013 #19

Yes nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #97

Well you know the old saying zeemike Jul 2013 #30

Bought, Sold and wrapped in the pretty packaging of Compromise.... KoKo Jul 2013 #67

it is to laugh sigmasix Jul 2013 #15

K&R marions ghost Jul 2013 #21

"the new breed of small government conservatives" DontTreadOnMe Jul 2013 #23

My Dad.. a Democrat to the core.. used to say.. Peacetrain Jul 2013 #25

+1000 great white snark Jul 2013 #28

That is what they said about Jesus too. zeemike Jul 2013 #34

"you are judged not only by your actions, but by the company you keep, and the values you espouse" bahrbearian Jul 2013 #37

Amash ProSense Jul 2013 #40

+1 L0oniX Jul 2013 #54

Nailed it... SidDithers Jul 2013 #39

And you consistently do the opposite. Shrug. nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #99

So, do the people supporting Broward Jul 2013 #41

So...you are telling me that Jefferson and Franklin nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #51

111 Democrats voted for the amendment; 83 against it muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #55

They bring up the libertarian boogey man in everyone of these threads Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #100

oh good night nurse markiv Jul 2013 #72

It's the Bachmann Democrats who are out of step not only with the party's liberal tradition Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #122

Greenwald. LOL...nt SidDithers Jul 2013 #35

Canada. Lol...nt whatchamacallit Jul 2013 #65

... leftstreet Jul 2013 #133

This is more opinion piece than news story. Coyotl Jul 2013 #36

K&R forestpath Jul 2013 #42

I'll remember these Democrats for not kowtowing to an enemy of the state. AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #44

"Enemy of the state" ... Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #91

Your post is just breathtaking. nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #102

John Yoo Turd Wayers are just secular corporate TeaPubliKlans. TheKentuckian Jul 2013 #155

But, we knew this. nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #48

K&R. MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #52

The last paragraph describes Glenn's real intent. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #56

Good point: ProSense Jul 2013 #57

So what do you think about the voting down of something we Democrats have worked for ten sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #61

Why let issues ruin a perfectly good character assassination? whatchamacallit Jul 2013 #75

First ... based on the vote count ... JoePhilly Jul 2013 #89

The metadata is the greater danger to liberty and freedom. reusrename Jul 2013 #173

You write this, as if you think it's some kind of clever riposte: Maedhros Jul 2013 #83

Bi-partisanship at its most revealing. Peter King and Obama. Bachmann and Pelosi. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #59

Violating the Constitution is about the only bi-partisan consensus ... Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #60

And this is damming but true nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #62

"damning" nt dionysus Jul 2013 #127

Under the differing superficial idiological garb markiv Jul 2013 #64

ONE Corporate/MIC Party - TWO Faces... polichick Jul 2013 #71

+10000000000 woo me with science Jul 2013 #96

+2 limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #109

This is like the Vietnam War era. That split the Democratic Party down the middle, too. leveymg Jul 2013 #78

I think we are just about there now. bemildred Jul 2013 #135

We're just waiting for the Persian Gulf Incident to justify it. leveymg Jul 2013 #138

Me too. nt bemildred Jul 2013 #139

Shouldn't be long now. This one is getting out of the establishments control. "By way of deception, Purveyor Jul 2013 #143

Same factions, too. Le Taz Hot Jul 2013 #169

Glenn Greenwald, the new Godwin's Law TiberiusB Jul 2013 #79

Hillary Clinton began her career helping hold Nixon accountable for his markiv Jul 2013 #85

Hillary Clinton started out as a Young Republican Goldwater youth delegate. leveymg Jul 2013 #140

Totally ironic Hydra Jul 2013 #86

Which 17 Democrats Voted Against the PATRIOT Act in 2011 But Voted with the NSA Yesterday? ProSense Jul 2013 #88

It makes you wonder... TiberiusB Jul 2013 #118

The really surprising one was Sheila Jackson-Lee, unles you know she's on the Homeland Security Sub- leveymg Jul 2013 #144

Schakowsy shocked the bejesus out of me as well n/t eridani Jul 2013 #165

more greenwald shark jumping nt arely staircase Jul 2013 #93

K&R woo me with science Jul 2013 #94

K&R NealK Jul 2013 #98

"The Obama administration made common cause with the House Republican leadership" FiveGoodMen Jul 2013 #101

As have several people here. Such fine company to bask in. War criminals, murderers, thieves Catherina Jul 2013 #103

It certainly could be. DemocratsForProgress Jul 2013 #163

K & R !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #104

K&R and Thanks Catherina. limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #105

kick soundsgreat Jul 2013 #111

kick QC Jul 2013 #120

What worries me is what comes next. woo me with science Jul 2013 #121

Me too. Pelosi is already laying the groundwork for that. All we can do is stay very alert. Catherina Jul 2013 #128

These are very clever bastards. n/t AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #130

"How Nancy Pelosi Saved the NSA Surveillance Program" Catherina Jul 2013 #148

The End of the World railsback Jul 2013 #124

knr for the Dick Cheney Democrats Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #142

They're asking for the passwords for RegexReader Jul 2013 #145

It just gets worse every day. Read this from the ACLU Massachusetts Catherina Jul 2013 #147

But wait ... isn't the NSA scandal a 'debunked' Republican conspiracy just like DirkGently Jul 2013 #146

Yes, and long since. Bachman is just too thick to realize it. ucrdem Jul 2013 #159

Er no. Wacky Bachman's taking your view of "Greedwald." DirkGently Jul 2013 #160

Nothing about her view of Greedwald in the piece. ucrdem Jul 2013 #161

Just so you understand Bachman defends NSA spying. It's not a "GOP scandal." DirkGently Jul 2013 #170

When The Batshit Crazy Lady supports you... 99Forever Jul 2013 #154

Inversely, her disagreeing with something does not make one agree with it to be a Democrat. Fearless Jul 2013 #162

The "kind of argument you ... 99Forever Jul 2013 #168

Actually no Fearless Jul 2013 #172

Bullshit. 99Forever Jul 2013 #175

I used YOUR conditions! Fearless Jul 2013 #176

naw. they are just using a little reverse psychology hopemountain Jul 2013 #156

knr Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #157

knr Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #158

new breed of small govt consevatives? is that a joke? Dustin DeWinde Jul 2013 #164

1 Party, 2 Faces. blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #166

False premises in this article: PBass Jul 2013 #167

So damn true - one party of MIC & Wall Street JackRiddler Jul 2013 #177

Many of us are. Catherina Jul 2013 #178