General Discussion

ksoze

(2,068 posts)

20. So individuals decide which laws to follow as they see fit?

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 03:57 PM

Jul 2013

Interesting concept. Sounds like a cool society - freedom and all. So, when the jury is sworn to follow the law, they should only do that if they want?

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Juror Says �George Zimmerman Got Away With Murder� [View all] LanternWaste Jul 2013 OP

Follow the judge's instructions and let God sort em out. n/t cprise Jul 2013 #1

That's the way our criminal justice system COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #2

"some other quarter" coeur_de_lion Jul 2013 #4

Calling Dexter Morgan! Calling Dexter Morgan! Lucky Luciano Jul 2013 #16

LOL if only coeur_de_lion Jul 2013 #27

! frylock Jul 2013 #67

Not vigilantism. branford Jul 2013 #46

This guy's Karma is totally f***ed coeur_de_lion Jul 2013 #77

See my reply to this (above) nt COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #172

The said system once said that I wasn't human malaise Jul 2013 #43

Now THAT'S a compelling argument. nt COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #171

why is so many here have yet to figure that out DrDan Jul 2013 #52

Are you advocating for vigilante justice? Rex Jul 2013 #147

No. I was seconding what the Op said that COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #170

lol @ Go Vols Jul 2013 #164

I wondered why she didn't speak out when the others did coeur_de_lion Jul 2013 #3

believing he is guilt and seeing evidence beyond reasonable doubt are two different things magical thyme Jul 2013 #84

she had a moral duty to at least hang the jury in that case... Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #5

Moral duty to not follow the law? ksoze Jul 2013 #6

Yes... Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #11

So individuals decide which laws to follow as they see fit? ksoze Jul 2013 #20

It has different names ... Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #32

Jury nullification only stands when it results in a not guilty verdict such as in the OJ totodeinhere Jul 2013 #88

Who says that? Ohio Joe Jul 2013 #163

I didn't say they can't vote how they want. But a guilty verdict totodeinhere Jul 2013 #175

Yes, but those apply to acquitting the innocent . . . caseymoz Jul 2013 #96

Jury nullification. Upheld by SCOTUS. Look it up maybe. NT dorkulon Jul 2013 #36

Only for protecting the innocent, not convicting the guilty. caseymoz Jul 2013 #104

Derp. You're right. dorkulon Jul 2013 #161

It wasn't really the jurors' fault caseymoz Jul 2013 #162

They should follow John2 Jul 2013 #45

The problem ceonupe Jul 2013 #66

The law simply John2 Jul 2013 #98

But..... ceonupe Jul 2013 #109

Thank you! HangOnKids Jul 2013 #38

Correction: They LUUUURRRRVVVVEEEEEE the LAW... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #76

Yes I should have been more concise HangOnKids Jul 2013 #102

I think that a good case could avebury Jul 2013 #26

It seems like she's a coward. She pawned it off on God. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #139

The law allows jurors to vote as they see fit. The jury instructions were flawed, Hoyt Jul 2013 #51

despite the jury instructions they still could have found him guilty TorchTheWitch Jul 2013 #112

Sounds good to me. The jury could have gotten to guilty a number of ways. Hoyt Jul 2013 #126

Whether he lied was irrelevant mythology Jul 2013 #138

they only "followed the law" Skittles Jul 2013 #114

Juries are empowered to do so, that's why were given the jury system. TransitJohn Jul 2013 #155

she had a moral duty to follow the law DrDan Jul 2013 #63

then why even fucking say anything? Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #100

she followed the judge's instruction - which was to find guilt if proven beyond a reasonable doubt DrDan Jul 2013 #135

Apparently she's reasonably sure on national tv. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #141

She had the responsibility to hang the jury. She's just hanging herself by shooting off her mouth. duffyduff Jul 2013 #152

I agree....live with your decision.....too late for regrets on TV. IMHO Gin Jul 2013 #176

One might say with equal validity that Zimmerman had a moral duty to stay in his vehicle. LanternWaste Jul 2013 #127

one might - however you did notice the prosecution did not rely on that . . . for good reason DrDan Jul 2013 #134

If she believes he's a murderer on national TV ... Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #140

"the evidence put forth was not sufficient to prove murder" DrDan Jul 2013 #159

She had the evidence for manslaughter. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #183

That came out of her interview? Could you provide a link where she stated DrDan Jul 2013 #188

By saying that he's a murderer, how else could she come to that conclusion? Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #191

no - she stood by her decision - she stated DrDan Jul 2013 #192

Nope YarnAddict Jul 2013 #110

But it was getting late into the weekend! JVS Jul 2013 #115

She should repeat this as much as possible, it was the SYG constraints in the jury instructions uponit7771 Jul 2013 #7

Which were illegal. This was NOT a SYG defense. Mr. David Jul 2013 #13

+1, how in the world did the judge allow them or are they in every jury instructions? uponit7771 Jul 2013 #18

SYG is sort of merged into the self-defense law itself davidn3600 Jul 2013 #19

Prior to SYG being enacted in 2005, self-defense required retreat if possible. Hoyt Jul 2013 #56

You mean, like these in the California jury instructions? X_Digger Jul 2013 #49

This might be splitting hairs but there seems to be a big difference between California and Florida Trekologer Jul 2013 #168

Yeah, I think that's parting a hair, frankly. n/t X_Digger Jul 2013 #169

So "God" will punish him? bunnies Jul 2013 #8

Is a hung jury the same as an acquittal? Rex Jul 2013 #9

No there would be a retrial Ash_F Jul 2013 #12

A more diverse jury? Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #21

That's adorable. Ash_F Jul 2013 #22

Nice back track Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #23

LOL nt NoGOPZone Jul 2013 #29

The law and whether or not a bigot with a gun is guilty, was up to jury. Hoyt Jul 2013 #62

This message was self-deleted by its author Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #70

Should be more than 6 jurors in a criminal murder case HockeyMom Jul 2013 #75

Perhaps Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #87

"capital". Sorry, pet peeve of mine. Recursion Jul 2013 #166

No comma Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #173

Fair enough Recursion Jul 2013 #174

In many cases with a hung jury Jenoch Jul 2013 #178

That is true. Ash_F Jul 2013 #193

In the case of a hung jury I believe the prosecution can attempt to try the case again Mike Daniels Jul 2013 #14

Yes and I doubt he can be tried again for the same crime. Rex Jul 2013 #59

That is incorrect. Ash_F Jul 2013 #81

Sorry, I meant that only if he was acquitted. Rex Jul 2013 #82

That is true. Ash_F Jul 2013 #85

Same here, most of the legal team on DU say Holder has no case. Rex Jul 2013 #103

I didn't say anything about evidence Ash_F Jul 2013 #106

Same here I want them to as well. Rex Jul 2013 #121

It probably won't happen, but not because of any constraints. Ash_F Jul 2013 #123

Yup, I guarantee you the DOJ will not prosecute Zimmerman. Vattel Jul 2013 #119

The law, if presented... zentrum Jul 2013 #10

Oh, no. Her verdict rested on "intent." DevonRex Jul 2013 #15

That is exactly John2 Jul 2013 #25

If they bring any further case against Zimmerman, Rachel Jeantel's comments on Piers Morgan's show.. dkf Jul 2013 #130

It is obvious that the jury did not understant intent. avebury Jul 2013 #39

You said it precisely. I think someone on that jury deliberately confused the two DevonRex Jul 2013 #47

If his intent was to kill Trayvon why did he wait until he was being beaten up? dkf Jul 2013 #136

Actually you could make a valid arguement that avebury Jul 2013 #144

That is a ridiculous interpretation...once you follow a person you have decided to kill them. dkf Jul 2013 #167

I think you are missing something in your argument. Jenoch Jul 2013 #179

I think you have finally hit on the real problem here. Brigid Jul 2013 #78

No it's non lawyers ceonupe Jul 2013 #86

I would have hung the jury. Brigid Jul 2013 #90

The JUROR said they they could not prove intent and so they voted not guilty. DevonRex Jul 2013 #107

And proving intent was the only way to get ceonupe Jul 2013 #111

No, no. They ruled murder 2 out. Then went to manslaughter. DevonRex Jul 2013 #116

You watch to many movies ceonupe Jul 2013 #122

LOL. You don't know who you're talking to. DevonRex Jul 2013 #125

Well if you have has any firearms instruction ceonupe Jul 2013 #145

I think the juror with the lawyer husband had tips on how to sway DevonRex Jul 2013 #105

That means she aided and abetted him KamaAina Jul 2013 #17

That is a bit of a stretch with the dragnet lingo ksoze Jul 2013 #24

I think it John2 Jul 2013 #28

It could mean she was going to miss an AGT episode and bailed out ksoze Jul 2013 #31

What would you John2 Jul 2013 #68

I'm a white guy and I would have hung that fucking jury. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #142

In that case, she should have stood her ground. KamaAina Jul 2013 #41

Then she should be straight and say that... onpatrol98 Jul 2013 #131

Did you read it all? DevonRex Jul 2013 #34

Alphabetized list of the evidence HockeyMom Jul 2013 #30

How does asking for the evidence indicate a "rush to judgment"? Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #53

Sort through it YOURSELF HockeyMom Jul 2013 #69

B37's attorney husband probably told her to do that so she'd look knowledgeable. Hoyt Jul 2013 #72

Unless someone held a gun on HER, she should have stood HER ground SoCalDem Jul 2013 #33

Careful - new thread on "gun being used on juror" forthcoming. ksoze Jul 2013 #37

It's pretty clear to me that the first juror who came out DevonRex Jul 2013 #54

I would wager she got continuing advice on this during those unsupervised visits with dh the atty.nt DeschutesRiver Jul 2013 #108

I'm with you on that. DevonRex Jul 2013 #117

Legal question: If a juror holds out for a verdict they think is just but doesn't follow the law ... Kablooie Jul 2013 #35

I watched the case very carefully and do think avebury Jul 2013 #42

Which is a fault of the prosecution, not the judge! davidn3600 Jul 2013 #48

A strong jury could have put the pieces together and avebury Jul 2013 #55

Jury instructions ARE the responsiblity of the judge. nt avebury Jul 2013 #61

And they followed the law ceonupe Jul 2013 #89

it's also the jury's job TorchTheWitch Jul 2013 #124

Almost always, no. branford Jul 2013 #74

there was nothing in the law saying he couldn't be found guilty TorchTheWitch Jul 2013 #120

But his story is out there for everyone to see and to disprove. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #40

I wish she pushed hard for a guilty verdict. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #44

No credit from me. She also said it should not have gone to trial. If she truly thought it, she uppityperson Jul 2013 #50

You KNOW that came from that first juror. She fucked the verdict up DevonRex Jul 2013 #57

she should've hung that jury frylock Jul 2013 #58

sounds like she was bullied into going along. the bright side? Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #60

Yeah, all of us that live in reality know that. Rex Jul 2013 #64

We all know that the state sucked ceonupe Jul 2013 #93

Yeah that's why I said only the Zimmerman apologists. Rex Jul 2013 #101

Good thing some mythical figure will deal with him. MrSlayer Jul 2013 #65

My thoughts as well. madaboutharry Jul 2013 #71

I'm a little torn. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2013 #73

It would have given John2 Jul 2013 #79

Other issues besides immediate retrial. branford Jul 2013 #80

That's interesting. I think I read somewhere that hung juries are bad for defendants because... JVS Jul 2013 #128

Maybe. branford Jul 2013 #143

I don't believe in god Fringe Jul 2013 #83

and, apparently, you do not believe in our system of justice DrDan Jul 2013 #91

It had nothing to do with Fringe Jul 2013 #97

we have onky heard Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #113

It quacks like a duck. Fringe Jul 2013 #146

and your allegation Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #148

They set a murderer free. Fringe Jul 2013 #151

They picked six females, and no males. Captain Stern Jul 2013 #160

it has to do with proving the case - which the prosecutors failed at DrDan Jul 2013 #133

No, it had to do with interpretation of the case Fringe Jul 2013 #149

One may believe in the justice system and yet maintain that it may be flawed in particular or specif LanternWaste Jul 2013 #129

regardless - it is our system DrDan Jul 2013 #132

Thank you, Juror B29, for confirming what every reasonably knowledgeable and honest person indepat Jul 2013 #92

Exactly! Fringe Jul 2013 #99

I get innocent smallcat88 Jul 2013 #94

Again, the fault in this case lay squarely on the prosecutors!!!! Vinnie From Indy Jul 2013 #95

I've seen few cases with more reasonable doubt. Vattel Jul 2013 #118

Well, so she passed her duties off on God. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #137

As many pointed out, the case was weak LittleBlue Jul 2013 #150

In the interview, she says the evidence "was not sufficient to prove murder" Federosky Jul 2013 #153

This is exactly right: there wasn't enough evidence to prove murder GiaGiovanni Jul 2013 #154

there was plenty for manslaughter- too bad the jury decoded to go home before they understood bettyellen Jul 2013 #180

I served on a hung jury CitizenLeft Jul 2013 #156

Basically, in Florida, murder is legal as long as you do it properly. Crunchy Frog Jul 2013 #157

While I Wish She Would Have Held Out & Hung The Jury... ChiciB1 Jul 2013 #158

there is an ugly strain of racism on du Dustin DeWinde Jul 2013 #165

This juror seems confused about Florida law. Jenoch Jul 2013 #177

they said all sorts of moronic things- that Trayvon was out very late in pouring rain, that they bettyellen Jul 2013 #181

I didn't watch much of the trial, Jenoch Jul 2013 #182

none of the jurors understood manslaughter. i think they had an obligation to find out what the bettyellen Jul 2013 #184

What would have been the justification for manslaughter? Jenoch Jul 2013 #185

it goes from murder 2 to manslaughter (and not not guilty) if you believe Trayvon had some fault bettyellen Jul 2013 #186

I understand what they said about how they reached their verdict. Jenoch Jul 2013 #187

the truth is, the jurors had to make a judgement on whether they could trust a proven liars story bettyellen Jul 2013 #189

I don't think the problem is the law,.. NM_Birder Jul 2013 #190