General Discussion

Pholus

(4,062 posts)

21. Your desire to protect and serve is admirable

Wed Jul 31, 2013, 07:38 AM

Jul 2013

but your examples are irrelevant to the point at hand.

Parallel 1 -- obviously not as the camera replaces the eyes of the law enforcement agent in monitoring a large, anonymous traffic flow.

Parallel 2 -- Why do they need to have a "number plate recognition" tool when a simple counter would do the same thing. Overreach and a waste of tax dollars IF it's only purpose is for safety. But that's the point. They always use "safety" as the tactic to get their foot in the door.

Parallel 3 -- Is there a warrant? You know, one issued on "probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Otherwise, there is no right. Nor does the government have the right to maintain some database of all deliveries outside of the USPS that can be searched on a whim. They can get off their otherwise lazy asses, get a warrant and then use the USPS's own computers to get their info if they can prove their case.

"Analysing metadata makes no-one a suspect unless you decide to check such data on a limited population. Finding patterns in that data might indicate that some individual could be investigated further."

Huh. Sounds like you created a suspect with your analysis then. And your "probable cause" was subject to the base rate fallacy meaning that it's quite probable an otherwise innocent person gets hassled. Right after 9/11, the FBI got a nice lesson on the base rate fallacy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/17/politics/17spy.html?oref=login

Who cares? Well, you see the local law enforcement types are rather "take no prisoners" types you see. And the consequences of a fuck up, well, suck:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor%27s_residence_drug_raid

So, no. They don't get to make us suspects without probable cause. It's illegitimate and they have no track record to justify the real costs that we have to pay.

By the way, in the absence of solid accomplishments, this is what passes for the justification for NSA surveillance:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/13/1215916/-Rewriting-history-before-our-very-eyes

In the end, he one thing that is true about your surveillance apparatus is that it is being abused. Even making leakers "enemies of the state" can't stop the stories from coming out. Of course, given the high penalties I expect much more of the worst abuses are still considered to sensitive for our tender eyes.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-nsa-can-abuse-data-on-americans-2013-7

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Highlight:

My Life in Circles: Why Metadata is Incredibly Intimate [View all] HiPointDem Jul 2013 OP

Couldn't they find all that just by reading your Facebook? VanillaRhapsody Jul 2013 #1

i don't have a facebook, or a twitter, or a reddit, or any of it. but i have email. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #5

Of course not. The NSA does an analysis of our social networks. reusrename Jul 2013 #15

5th Rec, and kick Hekate Jul 2013 #2

knr cui bono Jul 2013 #3

So "A tool developed by MIT Media Lab proves ... Summer Hathaway Jul 2013 #4

Do you think they don't use toilet paper if they don't tell you they do? Pholus Jul 2013 #12

You missed my point by light-years Summer Hathaway Jul 2013 #73

Oh FFS LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #40

Who said they didn't have the necessary funds? Summer Hathaway Jul 2013 #72

How would Dianne Feinstein respond to a FOiA request for Downwinder Jul 2013 #6

good question & i think we know the answer already. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #7

Absolutely correct. A lot of this information is available if you pay for it. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #8

And think of what can be profiled from our DU Posts, KOS Posts KoKo Jul 2013 #46

Seriously, you need to get a sense of proportion intaglio Jul 2013 #9

"f studied in bulk". 'in bulk' is the only way it comes. metadata is precisely the patterns formed HiPointDem Jul 2013 #10

Both paranoia and ignorance are what you are demonstrating intaglio Jul 2013 #14

so what? my neighbors are not the US government or global corporations. i don't care if my HiPointDem Jul 2013 #19

So at one point it is spying on you intaglio Jul 2013 #26

i expect my neighbors to notice what i do. i notice what they do. BECAUSE WE'RE NEIGHBORS. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #27

No, you refuse to see how short sighted your ideas are intaglio Jul 2013 #35

but they don't. because if my neighbors read my mail, thye'd be arrested. unlike the government HiPointDem Jul 2013 #61

The envelope can be read but not the content intaglio Jul 2013 #62

if my neighbors took anything out of my mailbox, even just to look at the outside, they are HiPointDem Jul 2013 #63

I specifically excluded that posibility intaglio Jul 2013 #66

so now the spying applies only to letters which fell out of the mailsack? ridiculous comparisons HiPointDem Jul 2013 #68

No I did not say that intaglio Jul 2013 #69

1. Your comparison of nsa to someone's neighbors or 'community' is ridiculous from the get-go. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #74

'Some of those computers and servers will be government owned or controlled' sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #97

What a truly awful comparison. EOTE Jul 2013 #28

No, but it is perfectly normal for government employees intaglio Jul 2013 #37

Normal according to whom? EOTE Jul 2013 #42

According to everyday history and experience intaglio Jul 2013 #49

Your knowledge of what is normal is almost as lacking as your knowledge of Godwin. EOTE Jul 2013 #50

USPS employees can read the envelopes intaglio Jul 2013 #53

Read the OUTSIDE of the envelopes? EOTE Jul 2013 #55

Mail carriers can read what's on the envelopes? Quantess Aug 2013 #80

And apparently that means it's just fine for the government to spy on us. EOTE Aug 2013 #81

I saw a very poor analogy just the other day. Quantess Aug 2013 #82

And that, approximately, is what this metadata is intaglio Aug 2013 #86

You are laughably bad at making these analogies. EOTE Aug 2013 #89

It is the very mechanism of the internet that requires this data be examined intaglio Aug 2013 #90

It's already being examined, by computers as a part of your ISP. EOTE Aug 2013 #91

For the umpteenth time intaglio Aug 2013 #92

Like a dog trying to explain the concept of fetch. EOTE Aug 2013 #93

Well you have not displayed your awareness intaglio Aug 2013 #95

It is the collecting and analyzing of that data which is unconstitutional AND immoral EOTE Aug 2013 #96

But USPS employees don't have data massaging software in their heads GiaGiovanni Aug 2013 #84

Which is why the NSA came up with this fix intaglio Aug 2013 #87

Why what? GiaGiovanni Aug 2013 #99

But not to keep permanent copies of both sides of the envelope GiaGiovanni Aug 2013 #83

You are trying to dismiss the government programs by LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #41

No I am pointing out that privacy is not what it appears intaglio Jul 2013 #51

Run off with the wrong idea? LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #52

No I was responding to another post intaglio Jul 2013 #54

I give up LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #56

I'm asking you intaglio Jul 2013 #58

But I don't know, I thought you did LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #59

My point, which you continue to ignore is intaglio Jul 2013 #64

Damn neighbors! LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #65

Ok, avoid discussion and good luck with any business careet you might have. n/t intaglio Jul 2013 #67

You're not going to tell me the answer? LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #70

Businesses are not the same as the government. Hissyspit Jul 2013 #11

No they're worse. intaglio Jul 2013 #17

+1 Bazillion Egnever Aug 2013 #88

Strangely, your "Bombes" were directed at an actual enemy. Pholus Jul 2013 #13

They handled data in a vast number of combinations intaglio Jul 2013 #16

blanket whining that "the gub'mint is spying on me myself alone" = please show me where HiPointDem Jul 2013 #20

As demonstrated above it is not spying n/t intaglio Jul 2013 #23

you didn't demonstrate any such thing. you made a bunch of absurd comparisons. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #24

The comparisons are only absurd because you refuse to live in the present intaglio Jul 2013 #32

You are leaving out the obvious: JimDandy Aug 2013 #77

No, they are not a series of tubes intaglio Aug 2013 #79

I can tell you that the internet is closer to a series of tubes than it is to whatever EOTE Aug 2013 #94

Your desire to protect and serve is admirable Pholus Jul 2013 #21

Number plate recognition intaglio Jul 2013 #31

Ethics: If you collect data, be honest about the reason. Pholus Jul 2013 #38

Recommend read.... KoKo Jul 2013 #47

Very true and, to me, the most disturbing part intaglio Jul 2013 #57

On that one, the disclosures from yesterday have at least one small plus... Pholus Aug 2013 #75

Excellent post! GiaGiovanni Aug 2013 #85

Thanks for taking the time to post this. EOTE Aug 2013 #98

Good luck ... JoePhilly Jul 2013 #34

K&R G_j Jul 2013 #18

du rec. xchrom Jul 2013 #22

easy to tell which woman became my wife Electric Monk Jul 2013 #25

Next thing you know, the government will be keeping track jberryhill Jul 2013 #33

Yes, all that "harmless" information... Pholus Jul 2013 #39

How interesting that they told him the reason for the denial jberryhill Jul 2013 #43

ok then, what about your mistress? You seem to have missed my blatantly obvious point. nt Electric Monk Jul 2013 #60

There is nothing to be done about it Shivering Jemmy Jul 2013 #29

yes we are helpless before their mighty power, so we may as well submit HiPointDem Jul 2013 #30

Submit or don't. The end result is the same. Shivering Jemmy Jul 2013 #45

This message was self-deleted by its author Shivering Jemmy Jul 2013 #44

Really? Trying to flog this as much worse than it is? treestar Jul 2013 #36

K&R LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #48

K&R We are being profiled felix_numinous Jul 2013 #71

We knew this intuitively JimDandy Aug 2013 #76

K & R GiaGiovanni Aug 2013 #78