General Discussion

Catherina

(35,568 posts)

232. If anything had changed, they wouldn't all be tripping over their lies

Thu Aug 1, 2013, 08:15 AM

Aug 2013

They could come clean with the American people and say "well it used to be that way, but not any longer".

This is why Snowden was so upset and said it was killing him to watch NSA officials AND the Gang of Eight lie to the American people without even blinking. Another thing a lot of people are missing is that it's not just Snowden, when Snowden first communicated with Greenwald, his emails specifically said "we"- "we have something to share", "we have something to show you". There are a lot of decent people who work at the NSA, they get hooked by being able to use skills for something they're passionate about that don't have a lot of value on the outside world, like math skills for code-creaking, language skills and hacking skills. I think they can go on for years, stuck in the fun of those shiny new toys and then one day, for whatever reason, it hits them that what they're doing is wrong. That why the agencies are flipping out and forbidding their employees and students even read the stories. It's not the slides they're worried about but the discussion.

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Guardian: "XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'" [View all] Catherina Jul 2013 OP

But I was told the NSA is only collecting meta data! think Jul 2013 #1

That's 'cuz the NSA never met a datum that they didn't like (& archive...) appal_jack Jul 2013 #6

Then I'll try to mind my p's & q's in responding think Jul 2013 #11

Hi Agent Mike!! reformist2 Jul 2013 #114

RELAX. bvar22 Jul 2013 #177

Everything in that presentation **IS** Metadata ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2013 #209

This implementation has been explained to you several times. reusrename Aug 2013 #218

Right. Which they use to query for the content. usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #248

Nothing like the revelation that EVERYTHING is being monitored think Jul 2013 #2

And "hoovered" for future use. It's"highly sophisticated technology issues" rather than "bad faith" Catherina Jul 2013 #5

That's pretty cool, on Page 13 IP 58.65.157.5 is a mail server in Pakistan snooper2 Jul 2013 #3

So does that mean that... bunnies Jul 2013 #4

Yes, communications with people outside of the country or coming in to the country are fair game Catherina Jul 2013 #7

So Im in there then. bunnies Jul 2013 #10

I've heard there's furriners here on this very board.... think Jul 2013 #17

All my DU Lounge posts? LiberalEsto Jul 2013 #12

That's totally disgusting. NealK Jul 2013 #99

If the tables are joined possibly.. snooper2 Jul 2013 #9

The slide made it seem like anyone could be a "target" though... bunnies Jul 2013 #13

We know from previous data there are 117K "targets" snooper2 Jul 2013 #16

So does it only sweep up communications with the "targets" ? bunnies Jul 2013 #23

There is a lot of junk traffic on the Internet snooper2 Jul 2013 #33

It seems a bit less ominous put that way. bunnies Jul 2013 #75

The real technical magic is in the search engines. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #118

OH GET REAL! Th1onein Jul 2013 #188

sorry, but you're not that important to the NSA LOL snooper2 Aug 2013 #236

Sorry, but you completely miss the point. Th1onein Aug 2013 #249

Once they do the two hops it seems Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #212

If you're in the database, all subsequent searches will potentially turn you up -even three hops out leveymg Jul 2013 #18

I think I may be confused about what, exactly, gets one in the database. bunnies Jul 2013 #26

Using the internet gets one in the DB hootinholler Jul 2013 #36

The ambiguity is whether domestic phone content is STILL datamined. leveymg Jul 2013 #54

You get into the system by being within the database of any agency, US or foreign, that feeds into leveymg Jul 2013 #40

Thanks. bunnies Jul 2013 #67

All gov't agencies operate essentially the same way. I know my stuff about a related agency. leveymg Jul 2013 #84

You should change your name... kentuck Jul 2013 #91

I am pro-intelligence leveymg Jul 2013 #95

from the article questionseverything Jul 2013 #142

content,content,content questionseverything Jul 2013 #146

"'THERE IS NO CONTENT' IS INCORRECT" - correct. leveymg Jul 2013 #149

You say 'analysts', but who actually has access, and who are they working for? Ghost Dog Aug 2013 #219

The temptation is always there when you have a tool this powerful to use it in any number leveymg Aug 2013 #223

Sorry, leveymg. I believe you are wrong. Th1onein Jul 2013 #191

Care to explain what you mean by that? leveymg Jul 2013 #194

It seems to me that you are echoing all of the crowd Th1onein Aug 2013 #254

Yeah, you ARE confused. Th1onein Jul 2013 #189

All that data is useless without software that identifies "red flags" that NSA considers suspicous. leveymg Jul 2013 #198

ROFLMAO! Useless? Are you kidding me? Th1onein Jul 2013 #200

I'm a member of the Whistleblower Coalition. Russell Tice will tell you all about the misuse of NSA leveymg Jul 2013 #202

^^^ This. Tice points to abuse and lists as targets: Ghost Dog Aug 2013 #220

Yep Th1onein Aug 2013 #252

Thank you for posting this, leveymg! Th1onein Aug 2013 #253

REMEMBER THIS: You are not a target until they get your info off of the database. Th1onein Jul 2013 #186

But... bunnies Aug 2013 #227

Hey, they've already listened to soldiers' pillow talk and had fun laughing about it. Th1onein Aug 2013 #250

No, everything everyone does on the internet is in the memory in its entirety Coyotl Jul 2013 #43

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Th1onein Jul 2013 #192

Not just the metadata? GiaGiovanni Aug 2013 #245

Yep. It's Six Degrees from Kevin Bacon... backscatter712 Jul 2013 #85

du rec. xchrom Jul 2013 #8

Note next to last slide: 42 billion records in XKEYSCORE system. leveymg Jul 2013 #14

I just updated the OP with a link to the full slide set Catherina Jul 2013 #29

Are they pre or post FISA Amendment Act? leveymg Jul 2013 #42

These seem to be pre. Catherina Jul 2013 #52

The implication that these training materials are still in use at NSA are staggering. leveymg Aug 2013 #231

If anything had changed, they wouldn't all be tripping over their lies Catherina Aug 2013 #232

K&R'd! snot Jul 2013 #15

Where are all the corporate-surveillance state cheerleaders to tell us it is all a lie, and,. Civilization2 Jul 2013 #19

And "this is nothing new, we've known all about it for years." truebluegreen Jul 2013 #21

yes that too,. I never understood that one, we have known about global warming for years too,. Civilization2 Jul 2013 #46

I know, if anything that is even a worse indictment on the Government, that they 'know all this for sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #90

+1 truebluegreen Jul 2013 #138

I suspected it for years, but I'll admit that the reality is different than I pictured Hippo_Tron Jul 2013 #201

Note confirmation that this is an Anglo operation: US, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand Catherina Jul 2013 #32

of course gottaw "work" with our partners in the war of terror,. oops I mean war ON terror. Civilization2 Jul 2013 #49

And it takes 4 people to sign off on it hootinholler Jul 2013 #39

When they pop up elsewhere on DU, denying the obvious, give them the link to this thread. RC Jul 2013 #48

Oh, not to worry LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #72

You forgot the boxes in the garage and the pole dancer nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #77

the more they blunt the reaction, the longer it takes to get anything done, and the smaller MisterP Jul 2013 #157

And that Snowden doesnt have shit and yet he is giving it to the Russians. Go easy on the NSA rhett o rick Jul 2013 #176

The picture just keeps getting clearer, and worse. truebluegreen Jul 2013 #20

Yeah... but... Vonage is safe, right? whttevrr Jul 2013 #22

Oh, certainly land lines are used. The Deputy Sheriffs Association, Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #71

Noi, VOIP is hoovered too. Th1onein Aug 2013 #255

Never mind facts! Greenwald's a turd!! caseymoz Jul 2013 #24

HAHAHA! Now, I must get back to posting lies for my think tank..... grahamhgreen Jul 2013 #158

That sums it up haha. Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #179

Chill. it's only metadata OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #25

Yes, but those memes are so yesterday. Any predictions on what think Jul 2013 #28

I'm not going to do any work for them. OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #44

You nailed that. Instead of a new meme they have gone green think Jul 2013 #80

Greenwald doesn't use dental floss. NealK Jul 2013 #115

That's pretty damning evidence. We better make a separate thread for this! think Jul 2013 #122

No problem. NealK Jul 2013 #129

What you just said is insuffient for the system to operate... nebenaube Jul 2013 #50

(I know.) OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #53

It's an outrage in all police states. - Where's ur sarcasm thingy??? grahamhgreen Jul 2013 #162

This message was self-deleted by its author Marr Jul 2013 #27

One of the best postings I have ever seen on DU. I'll go one further. gordianot Jul 2013 #30

But who else has such an elaborate system in place? Quantess Jul 2013 #197

How about someone who is being accused of Cyber warfare? gordianot Jul 2013 #204

K & R: Of course, DNI Clapper is completely honest & does not know a thing about this. xocet Jul 2013 #31

The apologists seem conspicuously absent. Marr Jul 2013 #34

what they're ROFLing about, hardly what they think carolinayellowdog Jul 2013 #103

Psst! Look-- I stole their mascot: Marr Jul 2013 #107

Waiting for the flood of posts from the apologists.. Savannahmann Jul 2013 #35

They're waiting for the Talking Point memo to arrive. leveymg Jul 2013 #45

Pfft! Enthusiast Aug 2013 #224

Well, you guys were really slow to react to this one, and weren't very effective when you did. leveymg Aug 2013 #225

You misunderstand. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #228

Oh, Jeez - I'm so sorry. leveymg Aug 2013 #230

No problem. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #234

Also, the endlessly repeated meme LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #74

Wait all on the internet, the same internet.... Historic NY Jul 2013 #37

Whoomp there it is Electric Monk Jul 2013 #213

Once again the ONN is spot on........ Historic NY Aug 2013 #222

Personally I'd like to know what all this is costing - TBF Jul 2013 #38

NSA annual budget is @ $80 billion - most of it goes to contractors. leveymg Jul 2013 #47

That's actually secret, too usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #247

Here's what it's costing us. grasswire Jul 2013 #131

+1 Go Vols Jul 2013 #139

right marions ghost Jul 2013 #140

Excellent response - thank you. nt TBF Jul 2013 #147

^^This^^. ^^This^^. Thank you n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #159

Excellent post. OP material! chimpymustgo Jul 2013 #170

People tended not to believe this when we revealed it on DU years ago. Coyotl Jul 2013 #41

Probably earlier than that when ECHELON was first revealed (I recall) by Bamford. leveymg Jul 2013 #51

I'll bet there were cries to shut up the "Conspiracy Woo" talk too Catherina Jul 2013 #65

Washington, D.C. wasn't very receptive to Mark Klein, just Keith Olbermann spoke out Coyotl Jul 2013 #134

K & R AzDar Jul 2013 #55

It's all legal and if you have nothing to hide, no worries steve2470 Jul 2013 #56

K&R idwiyo Jul 2013 #57

NSA: The world's biggest collector of porn links. nt Buns_of_Fire Jul 2013 #58

I wonder how many blackmail schemes will come from this? Kablooie Jul 2013 #79

Ever wonder why Obama feels so compelled to keep appointing HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #195

This is a good post Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #59

Holly Shit! The more documentary evidence of these abuses, the better! usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #60

Some randome thoughts DesMoinesDem Jul 2013 #61

This is proof Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #63

I was just doing an impersonation. DesMoinesDem Jul 2013 #66

Sorry about that. :) Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #70

There is a reason I studiously avoid him (as in ignore) nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #83

And a very good impersonation it was! sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #136

And I won't believe it unless he brings his girlfriend to spell it while pole-dancing Catherina Jul 2013 #69

Wow, you make a lot of prosense! n/t backscatter712 Jul 2013 #87

Link, please... IDemo Jul 2013 #145

Puh-leaze! You need to struggle4progress in your spelling skills! Th1onein Jul 2013 #193

You sidn't be dithering around! n/t backscatter712 Jul 2013 #203

lol Th1onein Aug 2013 #251

How cute to know I am in your thoughts. randome Jul 2013 #106

And he also never use dental floss. NealK Jul 2013 #125

Yes, well, I do so I'm a fine upstanding Amerikanski! randome Jul 2013 #128

So where can YOU point to some story Greenwald has exaggerated or lied or played up?!?!? Civilization2 Jul 2013 #135

You call it 'badgering' to ask if there is evidence of illegality or abuse? randome Jul 2013 #137

No evidence now, Go Vols Jul 2013 #156

I'm all for making changes so long as they aren't knee-jerk changes arising from fear. randome Jul 2013 #167

Fear is how we arrived here. neverforget Jul 2013 #187

Maybe the bureaucrats and politicians are afraid but not me. randome Jul 2013 #196

This message was self-deleted by its author Go Vols Aug 2013 #237

from the article questionseverything Jul 2013 #144

You're calling Snowden's claims 'evidence'? randome Jul 2013 #169

Snowden's claims ring true to us. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #226

Power corrupts...proof: caduceus111 Aug 2013 #221

You're kidding, right? randome Aug 2013 #229

As Random as a wet fart sound file on a computer fascisthunter Jul 2013 #185

Good morning Agent Mike nolabels Jul 2013 #62

So there's an X-Bluecoat-Via: header inserted in the XKeyscore slides... Catherina Jul 2013 #64

I'm not seeing that line on the slide. Where is it? leveymg Jul 2013 #113

11th line down n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #120

The Facebook chat slide is interesting to. If you know how to read that and what to do next Catherina Jul 2013 #130

All Sanctioned And Approved By Obama And Congress cantbeserious Jul 2013 #68

You have to love Mike Rogers - R's denial of the claim Xithras Jul 2013 #73

Good catch. ljm2002 Jul 2013 #100

Seems to me difficult to be shocked that this exists. Kablooie Jul 2013 #76

And that is why I occasionally include spurious statements, words, etc. in e-mails, postings, etc... Swede Atlanta Jul 2013 #78

What a waste of taxpayer money! Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #82

I like your attitude, and your philosophy, but unfortunately -- truedelphi Jul 2013 #174

Glenn Greenwald is a big ole meanie!!! QC Jul 2013 #81

Imagine how much more sophisticated this system has likely become in the last 5 years LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #86

Yeah, it's good to know these training documents exists, and the best part: ProSense Jul 2013 #88

They describe an operating system that has gone off the reservation of Congressional intent leveymg Jul 2013 #92

Ever More Character Assassination cantbeserious Jul 2013 #93

Making a point is not a "Character Assassination" n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #96

You would be more persuasive if you just stuck to the facts about the NSA program and, for a change, leveymg Jul 2013 #97

Actually, ProSense Jul 2013 #101

You're repeating yourself, literally. leveymg Jul 2013 #108

'Inconsistent with Congressional intent' is not a crime. randome Jul 2013 #111

Fascinating! ProSense Jul 2013 #117

Your second response to my question was a near duplicate of the first. This one is a deflection. leveymg Jul 2013 #151

It appears that the talking points have congealed. n/t xocet Jul 2013 #104

Yup, as predicted LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #119

Keep catapulting the Propaganda! (it might be working...?) Agony Jul 2013 #190

What happens if you order something online damnedifIknow Jul 2013 #89

In itself, that is probably not enough to get "red flagged" (depending upon what you buy), but it is leveymg Jul 2013 #102

Oh no, the gov't would never pecwae Jul 2013 #94

Bookmarked kentuck Jul 2013 #98

Edward R Murrow: "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #105

+2 (Extra points for Murrow) leveymg Jul 2013 #109

smart man. PowerToThePeople Jul 2013 #110

Now we're getting to the nitty-gritty... good stuff! reformist2 Jul 2013 #112

There will be some hipster/tech apologist along soon to explain it all for us that this is not bad. Safetykitten Jul 2013 #116

My god, how shocking and unexpected! sofa king Jul 2013 #121

I agree with much of what you said LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #148

Big woop. I heard the FBI taps the mafia's phones too arely staircase Jul 2013 #123

But...but...Greenwald said stuff and Snowden "saw things"! randome Jul 2013 #126

because I am an authoritarian persona nt arely staircase Jul 2013 #127

Please contact Gen. Alexander for a home demo LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #150

Or just go down to your local Information Awareness Office and ask.... marions ghost Jul 2013 #153

Like everything else, though, its location is a secret LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #166

Well, it's a recombinant entity marions ghost Jul 2013 #173

That's insane. Vashta Nerada Jul 2013 #124

HTTPS Silent3 Jul 2013 #132

Technically it's not even required that the other party comply. Xithras Jul 2013 #160

Have certificate authorities actually been presented with such warrants? Silent3 Jul 2013 #206

That's what I was wondering treestar Jul 2013 #205

Not when they have access to the content, HTTPS only encrypts data during transit from 1 computer usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #207

The HTTP technology being described, however, is about intercepting data in transit... Silent3 Jul 2013 #214

Not True. usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #215

Direct server access where? Getting what? And what's that got to do with XKeyscore? Silent3 Aug 2013 #216

From all the Biggies: Google, Microsoft, Apple, Skype, etc. usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #217

The stories so far have not said that Google, Microsoft, Apple, Skype et al... Silent3 Aug 2013 #239

Nonsense, their logos are all over the first batch of docs usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #240

And do those docs say... Silent3 Aug 2013 #241

DIRECT ACCESS usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #242

So you saw the words "direct access" on a PowerPoint slide... Silent3 Aug 2013 #244

The documentary evidence, combined with the first-hand accounts usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #246

Log extracts from the big isps bobduca Aug 2013 #235

I am completely non-violent, I have always been completely non-violent, and Zorra Jul 2013 #133

K&R NealK Jul 2013 #141

Thank you for ALL this info...bookmarked....K&R nt snappyturtle Jul 2013 #143

You can spoof, use a proxy server, hide behind a uber powerful firewall Rex Jul 2013 #152

Yep. That sums it up for the www. Amonester Aug 2013 #257

Kick Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #154

all i can say about this is..... madrchsod Jul 2013 #155

lol Liberal_in_LA Jul 2013 #164

HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #161

It's impossible to keep up! Catherina Jul 2013 #168

snoopy bastard Liberal_in_LA Jul 2013 #163

Need to know codenames of NSA analyis and surveillance databases? Just browse Linked In Catherina Jul 2013 #165

So the Pentagon knows all, eh? DeSwiss Jul 2013 #171

K&R thank you Catherina. felix_numinous Jul 2013 #172

ACLU: New Report Confirms NSA's Ability to Access Americans' Online Activity Catherina Jul 2013 #175

Yes, technology gives the government, any organization in fact, the ABILITY to spy. randome Jul 2013 #180

Kick. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #178

Bookmarking, this is a keeper. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #181

The key is to keep the pressure up Harmony Blue Jul 2013 #199

K & R. GoneFishin Jul 2013 #182

It's called a police state. grahamhgreen Jul 2013 #183

"...no review by a court or NSA staff..." Warrantless. Fire Walk With Me Jul 2013 #184

Hold on, that presentation is dated 25 Feb 2008 jazzimov Jul 2013 #208

+1 ucrdem Jul 2013 #211

See "Operation Northwoods" for some informative background: blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #210

Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #233

kicking Coyotl Aug 2013 #238

kick nt steve2470 Aug 2013 #243

Thanks for the post. blackspade Aug 2013 #256