General Discussion

zipplewrath

(16,698 posts)

148. To what point?

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:40 PM

Aug 2013

How does the imprecision affect the point I was making? The significance of the comment was that the 19 million only drew from half the population, unlike our military today. There were women serving in all manner of ways that were new and different. The pentagon was chuck full of them, many in roles that may have been earlier filled by men. How many women were at Battan? How many at Iwo Jima? How many at Omaha beach? How many on the destroyers that sailed within yards of the shore? Unlike today, these wars were fought by men, at least on our side (the Russians took a different view. So did the French Resistence). I don't defend it, but don't conflate it either. The men signed up for "the duration plus 6 months", or were drafted for the same. The women served well, but let's not confuse the two. It serves neither well.

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What the Oliver Stone docu says about the nuclear bombing of Japan is... [View all] redgreenandblue Aug 2013 OP

There is always more than one side to every story. Blue_In_AK Aug 2013 #1

"THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMIC BOMB" *** LINK *** usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #41

See link in post 8. His book is discussed in that link. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #47

true ceonupe Aug 2013 #53

THank you jimlup Aug 2013 #116

Sometimes Oliver Stone challenges authority... louis-t Aug 2013 #202

Sure, but I don't think he ever claimed it was a documentary. Blue_In_AK Aug 2013 #204

I've never seen anything that says to me.. louis-t Aug 2013 #210

It was in Truman's speech with the military base claim jakeXT Aug 2013 #2

Chilling audio clip. nt PufPuf23 Aug 2013 #3

Which was cut off in mid-sentence... michigandem58 Aug 2013 #13

More Japanese were killed in incendiary attacks on Tokyo Enthusiast Aug 2013 #4

America needed to prove it could be ruthless. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #5

The invasion of the home islands of Japans was estimated 10 - 1 losses, with the US losing Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #10

I had relatives who had prepared their wills and written their "I love you goodbye" letters MADem Aug 2013 #55

My Dad was also one of those people. PADemD Aug 2013 #62

My dad was also slated to be with the initial invasion force. tumtum Aug 2013 #118

I agree. n/t. okieinpain Aug 2013 #135

weren't those wills and letters pretty much stardard operating procedure dlwickham Aug 2013 #203

Yes; the wills were strongly suggested, the letters were encouraged, and one MADem Aug 2013 #208

I remember watching Saving Private Ryan and in one scene they were signing wills or something dlwickham Aug 2013 #225

Don't forget imposing sexual slavery on Korean women - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #117

Seriously. The USA had a reputation of being "nice" before WWII.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #153

There was a need to get WWII over with. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #160

The bomb didn't do that.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #169

WRONG again: There was no race. Patton was ordered to the let the Russians take Berlin first Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #181

Patton was a right wing asshole. Hooverville proved that. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #205

What does that have to do with anything? Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #211

It proves he was all bluster and didn't give a damn about his men. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #213

What does Patton have to do with the Asian Theater? Honestly, you're way off topic. Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #221

See any familiar names? Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #223

Not a race to Berlin. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #189

Much of that is spin to make the Emperor look good. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #206

And yet, a few years later, the Soviets has nukes. And two Jews, the Rosenbergs, were blamed Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #165

Ask yourself why there was a deal to keep the Emperor in power. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #170

Deal? He was revered as a God. joshcryer Aug 2013 #171

Never occured to you that Japan surrendered to us because the Soviets would have,... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #172

Sure, sure. joshcryer Aug 2013 #173

History could have played out differently with Japan following China. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #174

Or North Korea... joshcryer Aug 2013 #175

China fell to the communists not because of WW2, but because of the corruption of the KMT and the Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #179

One of the more annoying talking points from BushCo was,.. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #201

What does that have to do with Hiroshima? Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #212

We always consider our version of history to be the only valid one. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #215

I consider the research done for my dissertataion valid, as do my professors Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #222

You can't picture Patton and MacArthur working together? Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #224

The Soviets would have done nothing. They had ZERO sea invasion capability. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #191

Betcha they coulda hitched a ride. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #214

To be more exact, it was Prince Asaka that lead the Rape of Nanking, Hirohito's uncle. Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #177

Thanks. joshcryer Aug 2013 #178

The Emperor was NOT kept "in power". GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #192

Actually, those around him went with the story that he wanted peace for the good of his people.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #207

The mainland gains were ALREADY gone. The U.S. Navy had cut the shipping lines. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #216

Hook me up with your PhD dissertation when finished. joshcryer Aug 2013 #180

Will do. Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #183

At least they didn't make it to Yasukuni Shrine. joshcryer Aug 2013 #184

I live in South Korea davidpdx Aug 2013 #232

I'd like to read it as well davidpdx Aug 2013 #231

The Original SHOCK-N-AWE usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #42

The concept is as old as war AngryAmish Aug 2013 #66

Link? Android3.14 Aug 2013 #6

Oliver Stone's Untold History of the US burnodo Aug 2013 #7

see post #7 redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #11

Russia could not have invaded Japan. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #193

A very good historiography that sorts out the conflicting claims that are made... Waiting For Everyman Aug 2013 #8

reading now, everyone needs to read this imho , thank you nt steve2470 Aug 2013 #167

Then why did the Japanese surrender when they did? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #9

From what I remember, in the documentary it is mentioned that... redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #15

Still need a navy to transport the troops, GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #16

I think the US was more afraid of the USSR having time to take all of China than Japan was of... JVS Aug 2013 #71

Yes. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #76

There are long-standing disputes between Russia and Japan over some northern islands 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #57

Not accurate telclaven Aug 2013 #74

The third bomb was ready in October. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #77

Yeah, that's what I remember telclaven Aug 2013 #78

These numbers are incorrect. hunter Aug 2013 #199

Oliver Stone is a guy who, when he hears hoofbeats, he thinks zebras, not horses. MADem Aug 2013 #58

They surrendered six days later michigandem58 Aug 2013 #12

not by implication, no. redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #14

Why do you ignore the Japanese Emperor own words? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #17

I am not, I am pointing out that timing does not in itsself imply causation. redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #18

You are ignoring what Hirohito said. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #20

No.... redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #22

Try addressing what Hirohito said. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #23

I cannot address it, because I lack in dept knowledge of the broader situation. redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #27

Great broader knowledge isn't needed to understand Hirohito's speech. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #35

Hate to but in on a good argument, but that's not what the guy said. 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #60

I think his speech is very obvious at to his meaning. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #63

It's usually around here someone comes in and says Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2013 #108

I always wondered why Le Taz Hot Aug 2013 #19

Notice that they didn't surrender after the first one. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #21

And you believe everything a politician says? burnodo Aug 2013 #24

The facts speak for themselves.... paleotn Aug 2013 #29

and what makes you say that Stone is making something up? burnodo Aug 2013 #34

Because that's what he does for a living? cherokeeprogressive Aug 2013 #52

So no person in Hollywood is capable of telling the truth? burnodo Aug 2013 #87

And you believe a Hollywood flake? N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #31

Hollywood flake? burnodo Aug 2013 #33

And you never believe anything a politician ever says?...nt SidDithers Aug 2013 #94

considering history, I take everything a politician says with a grain of salt burnodo Aug 2013 #98

Republican? You're the one who quoted Cutis Lemay downthread... SidDithers Aug 2013 #102

So you believe what he said burnodo Aug 2013 #104

Truman was a Democrat... nt MADem Aug 2013 #136

No kidding burnodo Aug 2013 #166

Hirohito was a weak leader Le Taz Hot Aug 2013 #25

"Artistic license" = Lie. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #32

That was argued.... paleotn Aug 2013 #28

I understand the logic, Le Taz Hot Aug 2013 #36

In the context of WWII, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not extraordinary events hack89 Aug 2013 #43

The atomic bombs killed fewer people than the firebombing of Dresden or Tokyo Recursion Aug 2013 #46

Well, immediately at least. Probably not over the longer term thought. 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #75

My dad was a Marine in the pacific also, tumtum Aug 2013 #122

Whether the Japanese surrendered because of the bombings... Whiskeytide Aug 2013 #124

It wasn't Roosevelt who made the decision to use the bombs, tumtum Aug 2013 #126

Damn. I knew that. Whiskeytide Aug 2013 #130

Not Revisionism - Truman Lied visca Aug 2013 #26

See the link in post 8. It discusses that book. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #30

I do not understand why you insist that Hirohito was any more credible than anyone else involved. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #39

By surrendering he did prevent an invasion and accepted occupation. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #44

My friend, you are displaying the patience of Job and, for that, I salute you. - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #119

Allow me to associate myself with HardTimes99's remarks. MADem Aug 2013 #139

Thank You. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #146

And George Bush himself said Saddam Hussein had WMD's burnodo Aug 2013 #40

Because Hirohito was the one doing the surrendering. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #45

August 9th was also when the Soviets invaded Manchuria burnodo Aug 2013 #49

Manchuria isn't Japan. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #56

Manchuria WAS Japan, sort of JustABozoOnThisBus Aug 2013 #182

AT that point in the war, Manchuria was ALREADY a lost cause for the Japanese. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #190

Manchuria is northeastern China. Nice geography there, buddy Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #112

Manchuria was occupied by the Japanese burnodo Aug 2013 #185

Those troops were already cut off by the U.S. Navy. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #194

Manchuria is northeastern China and Japan should never have occupied it in the first place Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #195

well...they did...and...they were burnodo Aug 2013 #226

Manchuria is not Japan. tumtum Aug 2013 #125

This does not make the bomb the only available option Scootaloo Aug 2013 #79

According the Japanese Emperor Hirohito, it WAS the bomb that forced the end. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #90

Sure, but you're ignoring the point Scootaloo Aug 2013 #164

They had not offered surrender. You are badly misinformed. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #187

Monku itta tte shouganaiyo. AsahinaKimi Aug 2013 #37

Stone is full of it. The Link Aug 2013 #38

Of course it saved lives hack89 Aug 2013 #48

true but the strategic reason was to showcase our might to russia ceonupe Aug 2013 #54

No - the strategic reason was to end the war. hack89 Aug 2013 #59

Well before that point in the war civilians had become fair game. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #61

im not arguing you point ceonupe Aug 2013 #64

Would the world be a better place if we had allowed Germany and Japan to win? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #69

no ceonupe Aug 2013 #81

Would the world be a better place if the Soviets had gained world domination? N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #84

no on that point ceonupe Aug 2013 #91

So we needed to defeat Germany, Japan, and make Russia fear us. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #93

agree ceonupe Aug 2013 #95

Motivation is the easiest thing to argue zipplewrath Aug 2013 #50

No women in uniform? Your facts are WAAAAAY out of order! MADem Aug 2013 #73

I think he meant in direct combat roles. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #80

This is what I read...and that wasn't what he said. MADem Aug 2013 #88

The 19 million were all men zipplewrath Aug 2013 #132

Your comments were not accurate. We aren't talking about 12 ladies in a knitting circle. MADem Aug 2013 #134

They were not the 19 million zipplewrath Aug 2013 #142

So what? They were there. These are your words, read them again: MADem Aug 2013 #145

To what point? zipplewrath Aug 2013 #148

The "imprecision" as you call it, denies people who did the work MADem Aug 2013 #151

And had nothing to do with my point zipplewrath Aug 2013 #152

Look, when you misrepresent the facts, it has everything to do with your point. MADem Aug 2013 #154

Distinction looking for a difference zipplewrath Aug 2013 #158

No, and as I said, you are demonstrating your bias with your stubborn refusal to admit your error. MADem Aug 2013 #162

What prejudice? zipplewrath Aug 2013 #163

What this is about is your refusal to acknowledge that you said no women served in uniform. MADem Aug 2013 #168

They served in uniforms zipplewrath Aug 2013 #197

Please. Not all of your nineteen million were under combat arms. MADem Aug 2013 #198

I know zipplewrath Aug 2013 #200

My Uncle was slated to be part of the invasion of Japan. Javaman Aug 2013 #161

Curtis LeMay burnodo Aug 2013 #51

Ah Yes, Curtis Lemay, Barry Goldwater's VP pick way back when 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #65

so everyone you disagree with is discredited burnodo Aug 2013 #83

Technical Note: I think LeMay wanted to 'nuke' the Vietnamese back into the Stone Age (not HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #121

His opinion. Other generals held other opinions. N/t GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #67

Most of the generals at the time thought use of the bomb would be a mistake burnodo Aug 2013 #85

LeMay had a personal agenda hack89 Aug 2013 #68

Most of the large cities in Japan had been nearly destroyed burnodo Aug 2013 #82

That doesn't mean they were close to surrender. hack89 Aug 2013 #86

but they had been putting out peace feelers for months burnodo Aug 2013 #89

How could the Soviets invade with no sealift capability? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #97

The Japanese government viewed the Soviets as potential mediators hack89 Aug 2013 #101

It is greatly encouraging to see the numerous DUers... GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #70

"Stone's revisionist agenda" burnodo Aug 2013 #100

Stone is a revisionist, and he pushes it in his movies. N/t GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #103

so you haven't seen the series burnodo Aug 2013 #105

It was enough to read reviews of his movies. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #106

Oliver Stone is a moran of the first degree telclaven Aug 2013 #72

actually, someone else wrote the documentary burnodo Aug 2013 #92

What happens when you clik "Spell Check"...??? CanSocDem Aug 2013 #96

"Clik" spell check? MADem Aug 2013 #99

It's not that Americans don't get 'irony'... CanSocDem Aug 2013 #107

The spelling of "moran" is an iconic thing, thanks to that photo... MADem Aug 2013 #115

I know all about that photo... CanSocDem Aug 2013 #120

Your uncertainty ("I just can't tell anymore") is understandable. I've recently become HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #128

Good to know about Poe... CanSocDem Aug 2013 #155

I think you can be safe in assuming that 99.9% of the time, it's being used in a MADem Aug 2013 #129

That might have been true... CanSocDem Aug 2013 #156

Well, you certainly didn't use the spell checker... MADem Aug 2013 #157

Who cares what Oliver Stone thinks about anything. closeupready Aug 2013 #109

Conspiracy theorists with a certain axe to grind. Throd Aug 2013 #110

Very definitely. closeupready Aug 2013 #113

Operation Downfall.. Javaman Aug 2013 #111

It is absolutely accurate jimlup Aug 2013 #114

The Japanese government knew exactly what happened at Hiroshima within hours. hack89 Aug 2013 #123

+1. MADem Aug 2013 #127

You are badly misinformed. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #131

+1 nt Javaman Aug 2013 #159

Oliver Stone's greatest cinima achievement was markiv Aug 2013 #133

Well, the "Greatest Generation" is dying off at a fast clip--he's figuring there's no one left to MADem Aug 2013 #138

i've never liked the term 'the greatest generation' markiv Aug 2013 #141

I liked it until Tom Brokaw started sucking it dry for an easy payday. MADem Aug 2013 #143

yup, that too, that dirtbag released it as pro-iraq war propaganda markiv Aug 2013 #144

On an unrelated -- well, slightly related -- note... MADem Aug 2013 #147

Thanks. I wasn't aware of those. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #149

this was a documentary for Showtime burnodo Aug 2013 #186

His Hiroshima/Japan Surrendering theory Nevernose Aug 2013 #196

I saw JFK. I trust Oliver Stone to tell the truth no matter what. cliffordu Aug 2013 #137

Thank GAWD MADem Aug 2013 #140

I'm waiting to see what Art Bell's analysis is. Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #150

So Oliver Stone is now the keeper of American history now? defacto7 Aug 2013 #176

Well said Egnever Aug 2013 #220

It's a movie, not a documentary. rl6214 Aug 2013 #188

"the bombs had no effect on the willingness of the Japanese to surrender"? Each and every Japanese? AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #209

By "the Japanese" we usually mean the Japanese gov't. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #217

Yep. And I suspect that not each and everyone in the gov't was ready to throw in the towel. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #219

This in a nutshell is whats wrong with this country Egnever Aug 2013 #218

says you! burnodo Aug 2013 #227

Yup says me. Egnever Aug 2013 #228

Brilliant! burnodo Aug 2013 #229

must be a really slow news day. madrchsod Aug 2013 #230

slow news...like the anniversary of Hiroshima? burnodo Aug 2013 #233

no...slow news about stone not hiroshima madrchsod Aug 2013 #238

This is a discussion board, after all burnodo Aug 2013 #246

Don't ever listen to Oliver Stone on history BainsBane Aug 2013 #234

Thanks Bain burnodo Aug 2013 #235

Who did? BainsBane Aug 2013 #236

Peter Kuznick burnodo Aug 2013 #237

If you want to know how that argument has been received BainsBane Aug 2013 #239

so, are we away from the "Oliver Stone" stuff? burnodo Aug 2013 #240

You just told me an actual historian wrote the script BainsBane Aug 2013 #241

well, people in this thread are shitting on Stone in an abject, offhand way burnodo Aug 2013 #243

Stone is a big boy, and plenty rich BainsBane Aug 2013 #244

Thanks burnodo Aug 2013 #245

Is it possible... krispos42 Aug 2013 #242