General Discussion

zipplewrath

(16,698 posts)

163. What prejudice?

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:55 PM

Aug 2013

You've come here with some sort of agenda I still don't understand. It is a FACT that of the 19 million I referenced NONE of them were men. Do you dispute that? It was not a mixed gender military as it is now. Do you dispute that FACT? It was 1/3 of the male population over the age of 15. Roughly 350,000 women were in the WACS and WAVES. The dislocation I was discussing is due to this jarring difference. Are you really trying to compare these two populations? FAR more women served in a civilian capacity, taking clerk jobs in the government and manufacturing jobs in industry. And THAT was a major cultural impact (you remember, the point I was making?)

Is this really just all about the expression "in uniform" to differentiate between the male population subject to command and, well everyone else?

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What the Oliver Stone docu says about the nuclear bombing of Japan is... [View all] redgreenandblue Aug 2013 OP

There is always more than one side to every story. Blue_In_AK Aug 2013 #1

"THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMIC BOMB" *** LINK *** usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #41

See link in post 8. His book is discussed in that link. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #47

true ceonupe Aug 2013 #53

THank you jimlup Aug 2013 #116

Sometimes Oliver Stone challenges authority... louis-t Aug 2013 #202

Sure, but I don't think he ever claimed it was a documentary. Blue_In_AK Aug 2013 #204

I've never seen anything that says to me.. louis-t Aug 2013 #210

It was in Truman's speech with the military base claim jakeXT Aug 2013 #2

Chilling audio clip. nt PufPuf23 Aug 2013 #3

Which was cut off in mid-sentence... michigandem58 Aug 2013 #13

More Japanese were killed in incendiary attacks on Tokyo Enthusiast Aug 2013 #4

America needed to prove it could be ruthless. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #5

The invasion of the home islands of Japans was estimated 10 - 1 losses, with the US losing Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #10

I had relatives who had prepared their wills and written their "I love you goodbye" letters MADem Aug 2013 #55

My Dad was also one of those people. PADemD Aug 2013 #62

My dad was also slated to be with the initial invasion force. tumtum Aug 2013 #118

I agree. n/t. okieinpain Aug 2013 #135

weren't those wills and letters pretty much stardard operating procedure dlwickham Aug 2013 #203

Yes; the wills were strongly suggested, the letters were encouraged, and one MADem Aug 2013 #208

I remember watching Saving Private Ryan and in one scene they were signing wills or something dlwickham Aug 2013 #225

Don't forget imposing sexual slavery on Korean women - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #117

Seriously. The USA had a reputation of being "nice" before WWII.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #153

There was a need to get WWII over with. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #160

The bomb didn't do that.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #169

WRONG again: There was no race. Patton was ordered to the let the Russians take Berlin first Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #181

Patton was a right wing asshole. Hooverville proved that. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #205

What does that have to do with anything? Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #211

It proves he was all bluster and didn't give a damn about his men. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #213

What does Patton have to do with the Asian Theater? Honestly, you're way off topic. Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #221

See any familiar names? Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #223

Not a race to Berlin. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #189

Much of that is spin to make the Emperor look good. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #206

And yet, a few years later, the Soviets has nukes. And two Jews, the Rosenbergs, were blamed Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #165

Ask yourself why there was a deal to keep the Emperor in power. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #170

Deal? He was revered as a God. joshcryer Aug 2013 #171

Never occured to you that Japan surrendered to us because the Soviets would have,... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #172

Sure, sure. joshcryer Aug 2013 #173

History could have played out differently with Japan following China. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #174

Or North Korea... joshcryer Aug 2013 #175

China fell to the communists not because of WW2, but because of the corruption of the KMT and the Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #179

One of the more annoying talking points from BushCo was,.. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #201

What does that have to do with Hiroshima? Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #212

We always consider our version of history to be the only valid one. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #215

I consider the research done for my dissertataion valid, as do my professors Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #222

You can't picture Patton and MacArthur working together? Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #224

The Soviets would have done nothing. They had ZERO sea invasion capability. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #191

Betcha they coulda hitched a ride. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #214

To be more exact, it was Prince Asaka that lead the Rape of Nanking, Hirohito's uncle. Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #177

Thanks. joshcryer Aug 2013 #178

The Emperor was NOT kept "in power". GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #192

Actually, those around him went with the story that he wanted peace for the good of his people.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #207

The mainland gains were ALREADY gone. The U.S. Navy had cut the shipping lines. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #216

Hook me up with your PhD dissertation when finished. joshcryer Aug 2013 #180

Will do. Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #183

At least they didn't make it to Yasukuni Shrine. joshcryer Aug 2013 #184

I live in South Korea davidpdx Aug 2013 #232

I'd like to read it as well davidpdx Aug 2013 #231

The Original SHOCK-N-AWE usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #42

The concept is as old as war AngryAmish Aug 2013 #66

Link? Android3.14 Aug 2013 #6

Oliver Stone's Untold History of the US burnodo Aug 2013 #7

see post #7 redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #11

Russia could not have invaded Japan. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #193

A very good historiography that sorts out the conflicting claims that are made... Waiting For Everyman Aug 2013 #8

reading now, everyone needs to read this imho , thank you nt steve2470 Aug 2013 #167

Then why did the Japanese surrender when they did? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #9

From what I remember, in the documentary it is mentioned that... redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #15

Still need a navy to transport the troops, GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #16

I think the US was more afraid of the USSR having time to take all of China than Japan was of... JVS Aug 2013 #71

Yes. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #76

There are long-standing disputes between Russia and Japan over some northern islands 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #57

Not accurate telclaven Aug 2013 #74

The third bomb was ready in October. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #77

Yeah, that's what I remember telclaven Aug 2013 #78

These numbers are incorrect. hunter Aug 2013 #199

Oliver Stone is a guy who, when he hears hoofbeats, he thinks zebras, not horses. MADem Aug 2013 #58

They surrendered six days later michigandem58 Aug 2013 #12

not by implication, no. redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #14

Why do you ignore the Japanese Emperor own words? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #17

I am not, I am pointing out that timing does not in itsself imply causation. redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #18

You are ignoring what Hirohito said. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #20

No.... redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #22

Try addressing what Hirohito said. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #23

I cannot address it, because I lack in dept knowledge of the broader situation. redgreenandblue Aug 2013 #27

Great broader knowledge isn't needed to understand Hirohito's speech. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #35

Hate to but in on a good argument, but that's not what the guy said. 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #60

I think his speech is very obvious at to his meaning. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #63

It's usually around here someone comes in and says Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2013 #108

I always wondered why Le Taz Hot Aug 2013 #19

Notice that they didn't surrender after the first one. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #21

And you believe everything a politician says? burnodo Aug 2013 #24

The facts speak for themselves.... paleotn Aug 2013 #29

and what makes you say that Stone is making something up? burnodo Aug 2013 #34

Because that's what he does for a living? cherokeeprogressive Aug 2013 #52

So no person in Hollywood is capable of telling the truth? burnodo Aug 2013 #87

And you believe a Hollywood flake? N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #31

Hollywood flake? burnodo Aug 2013 #33

And you never believe anything a politician ever says?...nt SidDithers Aug 2013 #94

considering history, I take everything a politician says with a grain of salt burnodo Aug 2013 #98

Republican? You're the one who quoted Cutis Lemay downthread... SidDithers Aug 2013 #102

So you believe what he said burnodo Aug 2013 #104

Truman was a Democrat... nt MADem Aug 2013 #136

No kidding burnodo Aug 2013 #166

Hirohito was a weak leader Le Taz Hot Aug 2013 #25

"Artistic license" = Lie. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #32

That was argued.... paleotn Aug 2013 #28

I understand the logic, Le Taz Hot Aug 2013 #36

In the context of WWII, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not extraordinary events hack89 Aug 2013 #43

The atomic bombs killed fewer people than the firebombing of Dresden or Tokyo Recursion Aug 2013 #46

Well, immediately at least. Probably not over the longer term thought. 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #75

My dad was a Marine in the pacific also, tumtum Aug 2013 #122

Whether the Japanese surrendered because of the bombings... Whiskeytide Aug 2013 #124

It wasn't Roosevelt who made the decision to use the bombs, tumtum Aug 2013 #126

Damn. I knew that. Whiskeytide Aug 2013 #130

Not Revisionism - Truman Lied visca Aug 2013 #26

See the link in post 8. It discusses that book. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #30

I do not understand why you insist that Hirohito was any more credible than anyone else involved. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #39

By surrendering he did prevent an invasion and accepted occupation. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #44

My friend, you are displaying the patience of Job and, for that, I salute you. - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #119

Allow me to associate myself with HardTimes99's remarks. MADem Aug 2013 #139

Thank You. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #146

And George Bush himself said Saddam Hussein had WMD's burnodo Aug 2013 #40

Because Hirohito was the one doing the surrendering. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #45

August 9th was also when the Soviets invaded Manchuria burnodo Aug 2013 #49

Manchuria isn't Japan. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #56

Manchuria WAS Japan, sort of JustABozoOnThisBus Aug 2013 #182

AT that point in the war, Manchuria was ALREADY a lost cause for the Japanese. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #190

Manchuria is northeastern China. Nice geography there, buddy Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #112

Manchuria was occupied by the Japanese burnodo Aug 2013 #185

Those troops were already cut off by the U.S. Navy. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #194

Manchuria is northeastern China and Japan should never have occupied it in the first place Nanjing to Seoul Aug 2013 #195

well...they did...and...they were burnodo Aug 2013 #226

Manchuria is not Japan. tumtum Aug 2013 #125

This does not make the bomb the only available option Scootaloo Aug 2013 #79

According the Japanese Emperor Hirohito, it WAS the bomb that forced the end. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #90

Sure, but you're ignoring the point Scootaloo Aug 2013 #164

They had not offered surrender. You are badly misinformed. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #187

Monku itta tte shouganaiyo. AsahinaKimi Aug 2013 #37

Stone is full of it. The Link Aug 2013 #38

Of course it saved lives hack89 Aug 2013 #48

true but the strategic reason was to showcase our might to russia ceonupe Aug 2013 #54

No - the strategic reason was to end the war. hack89 Aug 2013 #59

Well before that point in the war civilians had become fair game. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #61

im not arguing you point ceonupe Aug 2013 #64

Would the world be a better place if we had allowed Germany and Japan to win? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #69

no ceonupe Aug 2013 #81

Would the world be a better place if the Soviets had gained world domination? N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #84

no on that point ceonupe Aug 2013 #91

So we needed to defeat Germany, Japan, and make Russia fear us. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #93

agree ceonupe Aug 2013 #95

Motivation is the easiest thing to argue zipplewrath Aug 2013 #50

No women in uniform? Your facts are WAAAAAY out of order! MADem Aug 2013 #73

I think he meant in direct combat roles. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #80

This is what I read...and that wasn't what he said. MADem Aug 2013 #88

The 19 million were all men zipplewrath Aug 2013 #132

Your comments were not accurate. We aren't talking about 12 ladies in a knitting circle. MADem Aug 2013 #134

They were not the 19 million zipplewrath Aug 2013 #142

So what? They were there. These are your words, read them again: MADem Aug 2013 #145

To what point? zipplewrath Aug 2013 #148

The "imprecision" as you call it, denies people who did the work MADem Aug 2013 #151

And had nothing to do with my point zipplewrath Aug 2013 #152

Look, when you misrepresent the facts, it has everything to do with your point. MADem Aug 2013 #154

Distinction looking for a difference zipplewrath Aug 2013 #158

No, and as I said, you are demonstrating your bias with your stubborn refusal to admit your error. MADem Aug 2013 #162

What prejudice? zipplewrath Aug 2013 #163

What this is about is your refusal to acknowledge that you said no women served in uniform. MADem Aug 2013 #168

They served in uniforms zipplewrath Aug 2013 #197

Please. Not all of your nineteen million were under combat arms. MADem Aug 2013 #198

I know zipplewrath Aug 2013 #200

My Uncle was slated to be part of the invasion of Japan. Javaman Aug 2013 #161

Curtis LeMay burnodo Aug 2013 #51

Ah Yes, Curtis Lemay, Barry Goldwater's VP pick way back when 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #65

so everyone you disagree with is discredited burnodo Aug 2013 #83

Technical Note: I think LeMay wanted to 'nuke' the Vietnamese back into the Stone Age (not HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #121

His opinion. Other generals held other opinions. N/t GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #67

Most of the generals at the time thought use of the bomb would be a mistake burnodo Aug 2013 #85

LeMay had a personal agenda hack89 Aug 2013 #68

Most of the large cities in Japan had been nearly destroyed burnodo Aug 2013 #82

That doesn't mean they were close to surrender. hack89 Aug 2013 #86

but they had been putting out peace feelers for months burnodo Aug 2013 #89

How could the Soviets invade with no sealift capability? GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #97

The Japanese government viewed the Soviets as potential mediators hack89 Aug 2013 #101

It is greatly encouraging to see the numerous DUers... GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #70

"Stone's revisionist agenda" burnodo Aug 2013 #100

Stone is a revisionist, and he pushes it in his movies. N/t GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #103

so you haven't seen the series burnodo Aug 2013 #105

It was enough to read reviews of his movies. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #106

Oliver Stone is a moran of the first degree telclaven Aug 2013 #72

actually, someone else wrote the documentary burnodo Aug 2013 #92

What happens when you clik "Spell Check"...??? CanSocDem Aug 2013 #96

"Clik" spell check? MADem Aug 2013 #99

It's not that Americans don't get 'irony'... CanSocDem Aug 2013 #107

The spelling of "moran" is an iconic thing, thanks to that photo... MADem Aug 2013 #115

I know all about that photo... CanSocDem Aug 2013 #120

Your uncertainty ("I just can't tell anymore") is understandable. I've recently become HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #128

Good to know about Poe... CanSocDem Aug 2013 #155

I think you can be safe in assuming that 99.9% of the time, it's being used in a MADem Aug 2013 #129

That might have been true... CanSocDem Aug 2013 #156

Well, you certainly didn't use the spell checker... MADem Aug 2013 #157

Who cares what Oliver Stone thinks about anything. closeupready Aug 2013 #109

Conspiracy theorists with a certain axe to grind. Throd Aug 2013 #110

Very definitely. closeupready Aug 2013 #113

Operation Downfall.. Javaman Aug 2013 #111

It is absolutely accurate jimlup Aug 2013 #114

The Japanese government knew exactly what happened at Hiroshima within hours. hack89 Aug 2013 #123

+1. MADem Aug 2013 #127

You are badly misinformed. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #131

+1 nt Javaman Aug 2013 #159

Oliver Stone's greatest cinima achievement was markiv Aug 2013 #133

Well, the "Greatest Generation" is dying off at a fast clip--he's figuring there's no one left to MADem Aug 2013 #138

i've never liked the term 'the greatest generation' markiv Aug 2013 #141

I liked it until Tom Brokaw started sucking it dry for an easy payday. MADem Aug 2013 #143

yup, that too, that dirtbag released it as pro-iraq war propaganda markiv Aug 2013 #144

On an unrelated -- well, slightly related -- note... MADem Aug 2013 #147

Thanks. I wasn't aware of those. GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #149

this was a documentary for Showtime burnodo Aug 2013 #186

His Hiroshima/Japan Surrendering theory Nevernose Aug 2013 #196

I saw JFK. I trust Oliver Stone to tell the truth no matter what. cliffordu Aug 2013 #137

Thank GAWD MADem Aug 2013 #140

I'm waiting to see what Art Bell's analysis is. Dreamer Tatum Aug 2013 #150

So Oliver Stone is now the keeper of American history now? defacto7 Aug 2013 #176

Well said Egnever Aug 2013 #220

It's a movie, not a documentary. rl6214 Aug 2013 #188

"the bombs had no effect on the willingness of the Japanese to surrender"? Each and every Japanese? AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #209

By "the Japanese" we usually mean the Japanese gov't. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2013 #217

Yep. And I suspect that not each and everyone in the gov't was ready to throw in the towel. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #219

This in a nutshell is whats wrong with this country Egnever Aug 2013 #218

says you! burnodo Aug 2013 #227

Yup says me. Egnever Aug 2013 #228

Brilliant! burnodo Aug 2013 #229

must be a really slow news day. madrchsod Aug 2013 #230

slow news...like the anniversary of Hiroshima? burnodo Aug 2013 #233

no...slow news about stone not hiroshima madrchsod Aug 2013 #238

This is a discussion board, after all burnodo Aug 2013 #246

Don't ever listen to Oliver Stone on history BainsBane Aug 2013 #234

Thanks Bain burnodo Aug 2013 #235

Who did? BainsBane Aug 2013 #236

Peter Kuznick burnodo Aug 2013 #237

If you want to know how that argument has been received BainsBane Aug 2013 #239

so, are we away from the "Oliver Stone" stuff? burnodo Aug 2013 #240

You just told me an actual historian wrote the script BainsBane Aug 2013 #241

well, people in this thread are shitting on Stone in an abject, offhand way burnodo Aug 2013 #243

Stone is a big boy, and plenty rich BainsBane Aug 2013 #244

Thanks burnodo Aug 2013 #245

Is it possible... krispos42 Aug 2013 #242