General Discussion

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)

115. Why introduce a field of strawmen to the argument with such an invalid question?

Fri Aug 9, 2013, 06:11 PM

Aug 2013

No one ever denied the existence of NSA surveillance programs. There were media reports on them as early as 2006. And the President nor his administration ever made any executive orders or signed any laws that ever dismantled those programs. I've known that programs of this nature existed 7 years ago. And I've never been under the assumption they were ever done away with.

So considering that no one ever said that these programs didn't exist and there was at least enough information out there to have a general understanding of their nature, I don't believe the "something that is not being done" part of your question is relevant.

The "Why propose to reform..." part is valid and the President was asked and answered that same question during the presser today. To paraphrase, he basically said that theres a lot of misinformation that has been spread as to how these programs work and a lot of Americans are no comfortable with it based on their, sometimes incorrect, understanding of them. He understands that concern and he wants to introduce reforms with the goal of making people feel better about it because having the people feeling comfortable with what they are doing is something that's important to him.

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LOL, Tell me again how SNOWDEN did not make any difference...... [View all] Logical Aug 2013 OP

He says Snowden could have used other channels. Bwahahahahaha. Puhleeze. dkf Aug 2013 #1

Yes he could have used other channels Mr. President, you could have assured him before hand A Simple Game Aug 2013 #75

Sure, he could have used different channels... bobclark86 Aug 2013 #172

Interesting the speech is a Friday news dump leftstreet Aug 2013 #2

"Bully Pulpit", "Pretty Speech", "Bully Pulpit", "Pretty Speech" !! JoePhilly Aug 2013 #7

Monday prime time, if he wanted to reassure Americans leftstreet Aug 2013 #10

No one on DU maybe. Most regular people who follow ... JoePhilly Aug 2013 #26

Most regular people don't follow politics leftstreet Aug 2013 #31

I did not say that most regular people follow politics. JoePhilly Aug 2013 #43

So he wants to reassure Group B Democrats leftstreet Aug 2013 #48

You really can't be that dense. JoePhilly Aug 2013 #52

Well, I'm just a regular person leftstreet Aug 2013 #59

His vacation begins tomorrow malaise Aug 2013 #34

Ah leftstreet Aug 2013 #36

Funny, isn't it? Recursion Aug 2013 #62

I thought the same thing...and it was an "Unscheduled Presser" KoKo Aug 2013 #99

True! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #144

So wait ... it IS about Snowden again? JoePhilly Aug 2013 #3

Not so much MannyGoldstein Aug 2013 #94

I agree it is amusing ... one day it isn't about Snowden ... JoePhilly Aug 2013 #95

To be fair, this isn't a two-sided situation. ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #155

Actually, the programs were in review and on track to being changed before Snowden leaked the info. millennialmax Aug 2013 #4

LOL, yes, and you think this would of happened this quick? n-t Logical Aug 2013 #5

LOL !!! - Good One !!! WillyT Aug 2013 #6

Are you calling our President a liar? eom millennialmax Aug 2013 #9

A politician Lie?!!? Perish the thought. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2013 #12

He's a politician, isnt he? DJ13 Aug 2013 #14

Nice dodge. millennialmax Aug 2013 #16

You'll learn DJ13 Aug 2013 #19

Hello again, Graham! Fuddnik Aug 2013 #84

+1 nt Bonobo Aug 2013 #96

Lol! exactly what I was thinking! neverforget Aug 2013 #136

LOL bobduca Aug 2013 #143

Here's video proof of a lie by Obama: Maedhros Aug 2013 #41

That's not proof of anything. As the President said in his presser today: millennialmax Aug 2013 #44

Well, in the video he clearly made statements that are refuted by the available evidence.[n/t] Maedhros Aug 2013 #76

There's a post up now on DU with Link about Wyden/Udall saying that KoKo Aug 2013 #102

So if Wyden and Udall say they're satisfied with these latest actions, you'll be on board? millennialmax Aug 2013 #103

Wyden and Udall have both been waving their arms for years, truebluegreen Aug 2013 #122

Wyden and Udall said "Obama DID NOT TELL THE TRUTH." KoKo Aug 2013 #127

Here you go pmorlan1 Aug 2013 #171

Yep...they are always working on things zeemike Aug 2013 #114

Interesting word choice pmorlan1 Aug 2013 #169

Considering he pulled a Bush on us Hydra Aug 2013 #60

So you'll believe anything S&G say so long as you get to call the President a liar. Got it. randome Aug 2013 #67

Hi there! Hydra Aug 2013 #77

I believed every word of their Concert in Central Park. Why? DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #97

You mean when he said he was for repealing the Patriot Act? Or closing Gitmo? Let's just say rhett o rick Aug 2013 #131

I agree-Those programs would have been changed alright, but not in the way some people seem to think RC Aug 2013 #130

Absolutely WRONG. Th1onein Aug 2013 #11

Are you calling our President a liar? eom millennialmax Aug 2013 #13

What are you after, millennialmax? Th1onein Aug 2013 #30

I'm after discussion with rational Democrats. How about you? eom millennialmax Aug 2013 #32

So, are YOU a rational Democrat? Th1onein Aug 2013 #45

Yes, I support President Obama. And I put a lot of faith and trust in the man. millennialmax Aug 2013 #47

HONESTLY, it bothers you? Th1onein Aug 2013 #49

I wouldn't bother defending someone I didn't vote for. millennialmax Aug 2013 #50

Got any PROOF of that? Th1onein Aug 2013 #54

He/she is a newbie, reporting for duty, Sir! Got to get in as many posts as possible. Divernan Aug 2013 #40

This message was self-deleted by its author Marr Aug 2013 #93

Oh, good catch Hydra Aug 2013 #63

For your information, sometimes all I need is coffee! Th1onein Aug 2013 #92

! Union Scribe Aug 2013 #88

lmao!! darkangel218 Aug 2013 #159

The NSA did not have spy relations with those Americans! leftstreet Aug 2013 #33

Less than a week ago, on the Leno show Savannahmann Aug 2013 #35

The cartoon version people have of the NSA and its programs is simply not true. millennialmax Aug 2013 #39

Why should we believe anything you say...unless you claim to work for NSA KoKo Aug 2013 #106

I'm referring to a press conference of the President of the United States. millennialmax Aug 2013 #108

There are people who have cartoon versions of Obama caseymoz Aug 2013 #116

"There are people who have cartoon versions of Obama" millennialmax Aug 2013 #118

Look, I gave to the guy's campaigns caseymoz Aug 2013 #147

I've actually made that specific claim. reusrename Aug 2013 #132

Operation Mockingbird is probably no longer called Operation Mockingbird. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #104

Here ya go: THE PRESIDENT IS A LIAR. Got it? Listen to him. Read the transcript. chimpymustgo Aug 2013 #157

The programs were not going to change. Rex Aug 2013 #21

I'm not going to recap the press conference for you, but that was addressed. eom millennialmax Aug 2013 #22

Gullible much? n-t Logical Aug 2013 #24

I don't need your reply, thanks, it was a statement of fact. Rex Aug 2013 #25

So...Snowden's Revelations put a fire under them to Speed Up these Reviews? KoKo Aug 2013 #100

The Epitome Of Wishful Thinking IMHO cantbeserious Aug 2013 #123

Yes. Now they are going to use machines to do Snowden's job, and the tiny circle of JDPriestly Aug 2013 #125

"Wow, wonder why that is????" tridim Aug 2013 #8

See torture. OnyxCollie Aug 2013 #28

Yeah. Of course there were some posters here right pissed about that too.... Pholus Aug 2013 #162

Most of us said it wasn't NEW. It's the corporate media's focus that is suspect blm Aug 2013 #15

Harry Reid could have refused to bring the 2008 FISA amendments to the floor. OnyxCollie Aug 2013 #37

+1 leftstreet Aug 2013 #42

I'm not gonna pretend I voted for Obama and expected that all these programs would end blm Aug 2013 #167

"The Program" has been EXPANDED since then as Tech Sophistication KoKo Aug 2013 #110

You really think Bush ended TIA? No way. Total means TOTAL. blm Aug 2013 #164

Hey! Lighten up. I'm sure Obama meant to do that all along. 99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #17

LOL! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #20

He made a difference. Rex Aug 2013 #18

Oh, he made a "difference". He fucked up a meeting w/ Chinese, Russia, various countries in Europe. KittyWampus Aug 2013 #23

And all of the sudden, Obama wants to be more open? LOL! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #27

Yea, so people like you will stop bitching and move on. phleshdef Aug 2013 #51

So IT DID make a difference. Quicker at least! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #53

Who cares? That doesn't vindicate the way Snowden handled this or the way Greenwald misrepresented.. phleshdef Aug 2013 #58

Well, Dickhead made Obama finally discuss this shit. At least someone did!!! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #66

Obama was proposing reforms before you ever knew the name Ed Snowden. phleshdef Aug 2013 #78

LOL, like he said they would rule "quickly" on CO and WA legal pot. Still crickets. n-t Logical Aug 2013 #79

It hasn't even been a year since those measures passed. phleshdef Aug 2013 #81

Keep trying. n-t Logical Aug 2013 #83

Yea, thats the sort of thing someone says when they've ran out of steam/losing an argument. phleshdef Aug 2013 #85

So define "quickly" for me! LOL. n-t Logical Aug 2013 #86

Sure, no problem. phleshdef Aug 2013 #89

Why propose to reform something that is not being done? AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #107

Why introduce a field of strawmen to the argument with such an invalid question? phleshdef Aug 2013 #115

Sorry, I otherwise thought that he said that we don't have a domestic spying program. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #117

That was in the context of what he has said about this from the very beginning. phleshdef Aug 2013 #119

So then, there should be no need to reform it. And why, exactly, is it somehow important AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #134

I believe it should be reformed. phleshdef Aug 2013 #141

There must be two Obamas. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #105

Actually there are several all over the world, but Barack and Michelle are 2 Obamas, yes. phleshdef Aug 2013 #120

Well, based on what I can deduce, he may not have, but others have quickly filled in a few blanks silvershadow Aug 2013 #29

If by "he" you mean Obama, right. O. canceled a private meeting in Moscow w/ Putin. Divernan Aug 2013 #56

LOL n/t lamp_shade Aug 2013 #38

I'm an idiot olddots Aug 2013 #46

If you think that Obama would be discussing this in a news conference without Snowden, then yes. n-t Logical Aug 2013 #55

Mr. Transparency hasn't had a WH news conference since last April - four months! Divernan Aug 2013 #69

Hopefully, everybody else on Martha's Vineyard knows that they're being spied upon. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #111

well perhaps emotional, irrational and not living in the world of reality would be a better term Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #70

I agree, "idiot" was maybe too strong. n-t Logical Aug 2013 #72

Completely fucking up your life for some bureaucratic review that may have happened anyway BeyondGeography Aug 2013 #57

Not sure. But no doubt the discussion is quicker and much different. n-t Logical Aug 2013 #61

Hopefully, it will help reasonable people feel more comfortable at the end of the day BeyondGeography Aug 2013 #71

I believe many times we are being lied to. Just knowing when is the problem. n-t Logical Aug 2013 #74

Why have a bureaucratic review for something we're told is not happening and has not been? AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #109

The problem is that five years from now the alphabet agencies will find loopholes ... spin Aug 2013 #64

So true. Sometimes I think they won already. n-t Logical Aug 2013 #68

I don't wear a tin foil hat but sometimes I will admit sometimes I wonder ... spin Aug 2013 #87

Nobody runs "our nation." ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #156

They are sputtering to make sense of it all, aren't they? LittleBlue Aug 2013 #65

Snowden entertains me Life Long Dem Aug 2013 #73

He's in Russia being used to hype their human rights record. ProSense Aug 2013 #80

It is amazing the ass kicking you have took on Snowden, and still will not admit that.... Logical Aug 2013 #82

Snowden ProSense Aug 2013 #90

Snowden's plan was not to 'flee to Russia.' We made it impossible for him to leave. flpoljunkie Aug 2013 #101

Its not impossible. He can leave there and come here anytime he wants. phleshdef Aug 2013 #121

We've all seen how Bradley Manning was treated under Obama's watch. flpoljunkie Aug 2013 #133

The military comes down pretty damn hard on people who commit crimes.... phleshdef Aug 2013 #142

What about the oath Pres Obama took to uphold the Constitution? flpoljunkie Aug 2013 #185

One puppet punches out, and another punches in for the night shift. Android3.14 Aug 2013 #158

Ummm...maybe you hadn't noticed but WE TORTURE PRISONERS NOW. NorthCarolina Aug 2013 #160

You mean like this? And, his followers twisting themselves into pretzels Cha Aug 2013 #137

Kicked and Recommended! Enthusiast Aug 2013 #91

Snowden didn't make a difference baronjake Aug 2013 #98

How exciting to have fresh perspectives. Welcome to DU! cthulu2016 Aug 2013 #126

Yes, because Obama JUST HAPPENED to decide to discuss security and privacy all of.... Logical Aug 2013 #139

Occupy did not make a difference!!1! Oh, darn it, wrong memo. OK - Snowden did not Zorra Aug 2013 #112

LOL !!! - Perfect !!! WillyT Aug 2013 #113

Yep...n/t KoKo Aug 2013 #124

LOL leftstreet Aug 2013 #146

Snowden is a genuine American hero. another_liberal Aug 2013 #128

Maybe we can have a Edward Snowden holiday. RC Aug 2013 #135

I'm always in favor of another day off for ordinary Americans. another_liberal Aug 2013 #148

A federal, paid holiday RC Aug 2013 #150

It doesn't have to be in honor of Snowden exclusively. another_liberal Aug 2013 #170

That could work. Remind people how government is supposed to work and who is supposed to be working RC Aug 2013 #173

The difference between a hypothetical scenerio and Reality . orpupilofnature57 Aug 2013 #129

snowden is sort of like arely staircase Aug 2013 #138

Yeah like those new NSA panopticons... Pholus Aug 2013 #163

Yeah. That one's kind of out the window now. n/t DirkGently Aug 2013 #140

NYT editorial: Snowden's "fears do not qualify him for asylum" ProSense Aug 2013 #145

Thanks for the bump! LOL Logical Aug 2013 #149

So the consensus is that all of this should stop think_critically Aug 2013 #151

FYI people, it's " all of A sudden" , not "all of the sudden" kath Aug 2013 #152

DU word police! Great! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #153

The only difference he may have made......was not a positive one. AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #154

No, you are wrong. Without him no one would be discussing this. And you know it! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #161

Or so you've been led to believe, anyhow. AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #182

"somebody would have leaked it eventually"..... Logical Aug 2013 #183

Lots of difference. AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #184

The dishes aren't done Aerows Aug 2013 #166

He did Aerows Aug 2013 #165

Well, since changes started far before Eddie fled Progressive dog Aug 2013 #168

Really? So Snowdon then make this discussion any different? Nice try! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #175

No he didn't, he just empowered the government Progressive dog Aug 2013 #176

Lol, yes, no one can analyze the NSA impact like you! So.... Logical Aug 2013 #177

Well thank you, I thought you preffered Progressive dog Aug 2013 #179

Snowden has made a huge difference. probably not hyperbole to say that he has awakened a sleeping kath Aug 2013 #174

Thank you!! n-t Logical Aug 2013 #178

Snowden has been a success Turbineguy Aug 2013 #180

Anyone with half a brain knows this press conference was scheduled TWO YEARS ago... cherokeeprogressive Aug 2013 #181

True, it was a secret though! nt Logical Aug 2013 #186