General Discussion

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)

73. But Greenwald and Snowden DID know what they were talking about.

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 12:02 AM

Aug 2013

Again, I see that you would like to discuss something other than the very worthy subject embodied in the OP. But you need to back up a step. We are having this conversation because of leaks and investigative reporting, that lead to public pressure, that led to Congress and the President taking action.

It is too late to change the subject. The subject is that this form of action has pushed our democracy in a direction it needs to go.

If want to start a thread on your Top 10 Most Needed NSA Reforms, by all means do so. You start, as I suggested earlier, with Obama's proposal to make FISA rulings more transparent.

But that is another topic. This thread is about the Snowden story's contribution to the democratic process.

Would you say it was one of the most important leaks in recent years, or THE most important leak, for example?

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

153 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

face it: Snowden/Greenwald forced Obama's/NSA's hand, and built real power to change things [View all] nashville_brook Aug 2013 OP

Hear, hear! woo me with science Aug 2013 #1

ditto ditto ditto Bigmack Aug 2013 #2

just a moment's reflection :) nashville_brook Aug 2013 #28

All well and good, but... PSPS Aug 2013 #3

building power with people is what democracy looks like. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #92

In before the swarm! n/t backscatter712 Aug 2013 #4

K&R! Maybe finally our country will put the brakes on the creepy police state shit. n/t backscatter712 Aug 2013 #5

one thing is for sure, nashville_brook Aug 2013 #84

You are right about that. Raksha Aug 2013 #101

always good to take a moment and realize how far you've come :) nashville_brook Aug 2013 #112

I hope things will change tularetom Aug 2013 #6

we're fighting for adherence to a robust legal framework that is policed and fair. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #85

No way, the POTUS teleported back to 2011 Rex Aug 2013 #7

he should have teleported back to 2009 nashville_brook Aug 2013 #114

Who IS that guy? I like him. n/t DirkGently Aug 2013 #132

he's been a stranger around these parts lately. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #134

Snowden didn't do shit, Nashville..... AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #8

the administration can decide for themselves how much this will hurt them nashville_brook Aug 2013 #29

"the administration can decide for themselves how much this will hurt them". I wish that were true.. AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #96

From my reading of Snowden's motives, and from those for whom I have respect who've sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #52

"The way to make government responsible is to hold it accountable. The way to make it accountable, nashville_brook Aug 2013 #88

I'm afraid you've been terribly misled, TBH AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #95

That's your opinion. I, unlike you, have been 'looking into these ISSUES pretty extensively sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #104

"I've looked into this man extensively" -- really? nashville_brook Aug 2013 #105

but please tell us how Snowden is a BAH/Trilateral Commission plant secretly working for the Bushes nashville_brook Aug 2013 #123

Democracy looks like stealing stuff? randome Aug 2013 #9

+1000 classof56 Aug 2013 #11

The focus is on Snowden..... raindaddy Aug 2013 #23

He didn't expose anything. He made claims with no evidence to back them up with. randome Aug 2013 #50

You either don't know how to read the slides he released, or you are willfully blind. leveymg Aug 2013 #57

What slides? Like PRISM and 'direct access'? randome Aug 2013 #59

PRISM is a database of databases - a system. The slide reads "collection directly from the servers" leveymg Aug 2013 #62

'Directly from' the secure FTP servers these companies set up for information obtained via warrant. randome Aug 2013 #65

That's your interpretation based upon the defense offered by the corporations. leveymg Aug 2013 #71

The poster has had it explained in detail to him multiple times in multiple posts Mojorabbit Aug 2013 #86

It sure looks that way. Raksha Aug 2013 #102

If he had no evidence like you say, how did he give the Chinese secrets? You cant argue that rhett o rick Aug 2013 #76

Why do you keep asking this question? randome Aug 2013 #103

that you see this as an "our side/their side" struggle, says more about your orientation nashville_brook Aug 2013 #124

Because you continue to make up schtuff. You've been wrong since day one. rhett o rick Aug 2013 #128

spot on. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #131

Right, meetings with lawmakers materlized out of thin air. raindaddy Aug 2013 #77

the fallacy of last resort nashville_brook Aug 2013 #111

I also love the "They were JUST about to fix it all ...!" fallback. DirkGently Aug 2013 #136

...just about to fix it and when along came a perfect opportunity to fix it nashville_brook Aug 2013 #137

You want meaningful changes? Here are some meaningful changes... appal_jack Aug 2013 #153

lol really,. last week it was all a lie and snowden made it all up, according to your posts,. Civilization2 Aug 2013 #25

Snowden's ridiculous claims were not a lie. They were just stupid claims. randome Aug 2013 #42

Turns out there's an app for that -- XKeyscore nashville_brook Aug 2013 #107

The iceberg continues to be revealed. DirkGently Aug 2013 #140

who is stealing whose stuff, really? nashville_brook Aug 2013 #34

What are you on about? The NSA is prohibited from spying on American citizens. randome Aug 2013 #45

You mean like a secret FISA court ruling that PRISM violates the 4th Amendment? DirkGently Aug 2013 #54

You don't get it still. Snowden is gone. He's irrelevant. He chose to hide in Russia. randome Aug 2013 #60

I believe the OP's focus is on the impact of Snowden's leaks. DirkGently Aug 2013 #67

And I understand you want to keep the focus on Obama. randome Aug 2013 #70

the focus is on building power to affect change, nashville_brook Aug 2013 #109

I don't see any mention of PRISM being part of the ruling. randome Aug 2013 #63

More at the link. It's a ruling on 702. Upon which PRISM is based. DirkGently Aug 2013 #66

I don't understand why the Guardian article mentions PRISM. randome Aug 2013 #72

It's not the Guardian connecting the ruling to PRISM. It's the ruling that does that. DirkGently Aug 2013 #74

oh silly me! there's LAWS against spying on americans ERGO nashville_brook Aug 2013 #108

That's what it looked like when Ellsberg did it. He hid too. DirkGently Aug 2013 #58

Ellsberg had solid proof, the Pentagon Papers. Snowden had PowerPoint slides. randome Aug 2013 #61

The NSA's Powerpoint slides, you mean. That the NSA claims don't mean DirkGently Aug 2013 #64

Which means that neither Greenwald nor Snowden knew what they were talking about! randome Aug 2013 #69

But Greenwald and Snowden DID know what they were talking about. DirkGently Aug 2013 #73

As far as leaks go, it was a pointless one. randome Aug 2013 #75

and the fact that Snowden broke the law does not excuse the government from stealing our data nashville_brook Aug 2013 #115

"...what specific changes do you want to see at the NSA?" ronnie624 Aug 2013 #141

Democracy looks like spying on all of your citizens?? sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #106

Spying is not the answer. Stealing and hiding in Russia is not the answer. randome Aug 2013 #110

that thread does nothing of the sort -- it's the same talking point you're putting forth here... nashville_brook Aug 2013 #113

Reminds me of Bushies demanding we solve terrorism DirkGently Aug 2013 #138

Yes! Democracy is empowering the people with information! morningfog Aug 2013 #116

It's not Obama's hand that needed forcing, he only signs/vetoes legislation. JaneyVee Aug 2013 #10

He has all manner of things he can do to advance an agenda just like Bush did. Mojorabbit Aug 2013 #87

are you of the mind that Obama has no power? nashville_brook Aug 2013 #133

DURec leftstreet Aug 2013 #12

yes we must conceed, Snowden is God Californeeway Aug 2013 #13

You are making a number of assertions that are not accurate. Maedhros Aug 2013 #16

you are conflating two different things Californeeway Aug 2013 #21

It is entirely up to Obama how dumb he looks. DirkGently Aug 2013 #33

who said the administration is embarrassed? Californeeway Aug 2013 #78

Obama did. in his speech Friday. burnodo Aug 2013 #100

Obama is doing a fine job of managing his appearance...if he appears "dumb" or "discredited" nashville_brook Aug 2013 #117

and let's talk about "losing faith" and "Liberal policies" nashville_brook Aug 2013 #120

I can call bullshit too Californeeway Aug 2013 #149

Oh stop it. Republicans love the NSA. DirkGently Aug 2013 #139

Great post treestar Aug 2013 #51

There's been a shit-ton of analysis that Snowden haters have ignored burnodo Aug 2013 #19

Unfortunately, my experience has been to the contrary. AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #97

"The truth as it is" burnodo Aug 2013 #98

Cool story, bro. =p n/t AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #99

zomg! Snowden is a Bilderberger! I saw him at Bohemian Grove with Jeb Bush!! nashville_brook Aug 2013 #135

it's unfortunate that you feel a need to make this about Obama nashville_brook Aug 2013 #37

And they will talk of blind faith in treestar Aug 2013 #53

he broke the law. he broke the law. rinse and repeat ad nauseum lol nt msongs Aug 2013 #14

Change is still to be seen Life Long Dem Aug 2013 #15

I seem to remember a speech about a month or so EC Aug 2013 #17

Obama is quite capable of not being the bad guy here. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #38

K&R burnodo Aug 2013 #18

Yes - Well Said cantbeserious Aug 2013 #20

I must have missed something TomClash Aug 2013 #22

indeed -- i didn't say that things had changed. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #130

I think I read well enough TomClash Aug 2013 #147

They had already fixed the problem and they were already planning to fix it anyway Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #24

whew! dodged a bullet there! can you imagine how fucked we'd be if this wasn't fixed! nashville_brook Aug 2013 #91

He is a ballerina-abandoner! QC Aug 2013 #26

Agreed. It also did real harm to our intel capabilities Recursion Aug 2013 #27

Like what? DirkGently Aug 2013 #31

Like telling the Chinese which computers of theirs we had compromised Recursion Aug 2013 #32

Hadn't seen that. Evidence? DirkGently Aug 2013 #35

Seriously? Recursion Aug 2013 #36

as if China didn't already know the United States was spying on them. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #39

Right, but he told them which computers in particular we had compromised Recursion Aug 2013 #40

Good for him. Fuck the NSA. n/t Downtown Hound Aug 2013 #145

As if we weren't well aware of the NSA spying Egnever Aug 2013 #55

Are you serious? Those posts don't say what you claim. DirkGently Aug 2013 #41

OFFS. Recursion Aug 2013 #44

Same interview. One, unverified, vague claim. Nothing about damaging intel. DirkGently Aug 2013 #46

Well hell, it's no more vague than the claims he's made about spying on Americans Recursion Aug 2013 #47

There's nothing vague about how DHS and NSA are making a mockery of the law. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #89

I don't give a shit if he gave the Chinese everything Downtown Hound Aug 2013 #148

Our intel capabilities should be reigned in. morningfog Aug 2013 #119

LOL. I'll file that one under, "WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK?" Downtown Hound Aug 2013 #144

word. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #150

+++ This IS what democracy looks like. n/t DirkGently Aug 2013 #30

Snowden has nothing to do with democracy underthematrix Aug 2013 #43

neener neener. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #82

Democracy looks like the People deciding treestar Aug 2013 #48

really? that's where your responsibility ends? nashville_brook Aug 2013 #81

Exactly! That's how we got abolition, women's suffrage, the labor movement and the New Deal, ended Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #94

HERO AppleBottom Aug 2013 #49

he's a hero at a time when we thought heroes no longer existed. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #90

Has there been change? gulliver Aug 2013 #56

read what i wrote. it's about building power. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #80

K&R limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #68

if we've learned nothing else, it's that we're as vulnerable to Dems running those nashville_brook Aug 2013 #79

K & R !!! WillyT Aug 2013 #83

K&R marions ghost Aug 2013 #93

That is if you consider this a "frightening issue". DCBob Aug 2013 #118

history of full of those who were unable to see "frightening issues" nashville_brook Aug 2013 #121

and history is also full of those making moutains out of mole hills. DCBob Aug 2013 #122

then how do you square 4th Amendment protections with domestic spying? nashville_brook Aug 2013 #125

i fully support your right to free speech except for the stuff i don't agree with... nashville_brook Aug 2013 #127

I suspect even Stalin would have supported the right to privacy except when national security Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #151

+1 nashville_brook Aug 2013 #152

One person can change things -- but it may cost him his life. BlueStreak Aug 2013 #126

yup. that's where hero status comes from. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #129

''This is what democracy looks like.'' Octafish Aug 2013 #142

Cryptocracy = tyranny. nashville_brook Aug 2013 #143

knr Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #146