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leveymg

(36,418 posts)
57. I'm sure until recently, anyway, the point has been to stay well away from red lines.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 04:29 PM
Aug 2013

Some factors may now be out of their immediate control. Resource depletion, price inflation, job erosion, and wasteful wars do that.

Jack Goldstone reduced revolution it to a formula that can be simplified to population and prices, although I think the post-structuralists like Goldstone and determinists like Skocpol and the Tilleys still tend to negate psychological factors too much.

Here's an interesting article that reviews and applied the author's particular Tipping Point theory to Egypt before the coup and some historical examples of failed revolutions: http://sociological-eye.blogspot.com/2013/06/tipping-point-revolutions-and-state.html

A Contested Tipping Point: The Egyptian Revolution

Egypt in January-February 2011, the most famous of the Arab Spring revolutions, fits most closely to the model of 1848 France. Egypt took longer to build up to the tipping point-- 18 days instead of 3; and there were more casualties in the initial phase--- 400 killed and 6000 wounded (compared to 50 killed in February 1848) because there was more struggle before the tipping point was reached. Already from day 7, troops sent to guard Tahrir Square in Cairo declared themselves neutral, and most of the protestors’ causalities came from attacks by unofficial government militias or thugs. By day 16, police who killed demonstrators were arrested, and the dictator Mubarak offered concessions, which were rejected as unacceptable. On the last day of the 18-day revolution, everyone had deserted Mubarak and swung over to the bandwagon, including his own former base of support, the military. This continuity is one reason why the aftermath did not prove so revolutionary.

Again, honeymoon did not last long. By day 43, women who assembled in Tahrir Square were heckled and threatened, and Muslim/Christian violence broke out in Cairo. Tahrir Square continued to be used as a symbolic rallying point, but largely as a scene of clashes between opposing camps. Structural reforms have not gone very deep. The Islamist movement elected in the popular vote relegated to a minority the secularists and liberals who had been most active in the revolution. President Morsi bears some resemblance to Louis Bonaparte, who rose to power on the reputation of an ancestral movement-- both had a record of opposition to the regime, but were ambiguous about their own democratic credentials. The analogy portends a reactionary outcome to a liberating revolution.

Bottom line: tipping point revolutions are too superficial to make deep structural changes. What does?


State Breakdown Revolutions

Three ingredients must come together to produce a state-breakdown revolution.

(1) Fiscal crisis/ paralysis of state organization. The state runs out of money, is crushed by debts, or otherwise is so burdened that it cannot pay its own officials. This often happens through the expense of past wars or huge costs of current war, especially if one is losing. The crisis is deep and structural because it cannot be evaded; it is not a matter of ideology, and whoever takes over responsibility for running the government faces the same problem. When the crisis grows serious, the army, police and officials no longer can enforce order because they themselves are disaffected.

This was the route to the 1789 French Revolution; the 1640 English Revolution; the 1917 Russian Revolution; and the 1853-68 Japanese revolution (which goes under the name of the Meiji Restoration). The 1989-91 anti-Soviet revolution similarly began with struggles to reform the Soviet budget, overburdened by military costs of the Cold War arms race.

(2) Elite deadlock between state faction and economic privilege faction. The fiscal crisis cannot be resolved because the most powerful and privileged groups are split. Those who benefit economically from the regime resist paying for it (whether these are landowners, financiers, or even a socialist military-industrial complex); reformers are those who are directly responsible for keeping the state running. The split is deep and structural, since it does not depend on ideological preferences; whoever takes command, whatever their ideas, must deal with the reality of organizational paralysis. We are not dealing here with conflict between parties in the public sphere or the legislature; such partisan squabbling is common, and it may also exist at the same time as a state crisis. Deadlock between the top elites is far more serious, because it stymies the two most powerful forces, the economic elite and the ruling officials.

(3) Mass mobilization of dissidents. This factor is last in causal order; it becomes important after state crisis and elite deadlock weaken the enforcement power of the regime. This power vacuum provides an opportunity for movements of the public to claim a solution. The ideology of the revolutionaries is often misleading; it may have nothing to do with the causes of the fiscal crisis itself (e.g. claiming the issue is one of political reform, democratic representation, or even returning to some earlier religious or traditional image of utopia). The importance of ideology is mostly tactical, as an emotion-focusing device for group action. And in fact, after taking state power, revolutionary movements often take actions contrary to their ideology (the early Bolshevik policies on land reform, for instance; or the Japanese revolutionary shifts between anti-western antipathy and pro-western imitation). The important thing is that the revolutionary movement is radical enough to attack the fiscal (and typically military) problems, to reorganize resources so that the state itself becomes well-funded. This solves the structural crisis and ends state breakdown, enabling the state to go on with other reforms. That is why state breakdown revolutions are able to make deep changes in institutions: in short, why they become “historic” revolutions.

Reconciling the Two Theories

Tipping point revolutions are far more common than state breakdown revolutions. The two mechanisms sometimes coincide; tipping points may occur in the sequence of a state breakdown, as the third factor, mass mobilization, comes into play. In 1789, once the fiscal crisis and elite deadlock resulted in calling the Estates General, crowd dynamics led to tipping points that are celebrated as the glory days of the French revolution. In 1917 Russia, the initial collapse of the government in February was a crowd-driven tipping point, with a series of abdications reminiscent of France in February 1848; what made this a deep structural revolution was the fiscal crisis of war debts, pressure to continue the war from the Allies who held Russian debt, and eventually a second tipping point in November in favor of the Soviets. But state breakdown revolutions can happen without these kinds of crowd-centered tipping points: the 1640 English Revolution (where fighting went on through 1648); the Chinese revolution stretching from 1911 to 1949; the Japanese revolution of 1853-68. Conversely, tipping point revolutions often fail in the absence of state fiscal crisis and elite deadlock; an example is the 1905 Russian Revolution, which had months of widespread enthusiasm for reform during the opportunity provided by defeat in the Japanese war, but nevertheless ended with the government forcefully putting down the revolution.

A tipping point mechanism, by itself, is a version of mass mobilization which is the final ingredient of a state paralysis revolution. But mass mobilization also has a larger structural basis: resources such as transportation and communication networks that facilitate organizing social movements-- sometimes in the form of revolutionary armies-- to contend for control of the state. If such mobilization concentrates in a capital city, it may generate a tipping point situation. But also such mobilization can take place throughout the countryside; in which case the revolution takes more the form of a civil war.

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Back in June, I wasn't that far off in my upper estimate of NSA profiling of 90 million callers/mo. leveymg Aug 2013 #1
For scale, a couple decades ago their were about 1 billion domestic phone calls per day FarCenter Aug 2013 #13
Thank you.nt pnwmom Aug 2013 #42
Could it be "Super low bar on 'reasonable suspicion?' " DirkGently Aug 2013 #2
How many analysts do they have that determine reasonable suspicion? dkf Aug 2013 #4
The system is largely automated. The profiling software determines who's call gets assigned to an leveymg Aug 2013 #6
Problem with "standards" applied without scrutiny is DirkGently Aug 2013 #7
Looking at the math they'd need 427 actual analysts dickthegrouch Aug 2013 #56
Cause the queries to suspission ratio could be 1 supect to n number of queries but I'm sure uponit7771 Aug 2013 #3
Well you're right about one thing... ljm2002 Aug 2013 #34
and that's only Ft. Meade headquarters and nearby facilities. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #5
Good point. nt Demo_Chris Aug 2013 #8
The definition of "reasonable suspicion" equates to "breathing"? Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #9
Bingo. Th1onein Aug 2013 #58
You are now under suspicion dkf. signed the NSA PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #10
The thought has occurred. Scary. dkf Aug 2013 #11
They can query foreign communications data a hundred million times a month if they want. randome Aug 2013 #12
Sure if they can separate that out...which we both know they can't. dkf Aug 2013 #15
Huh? Of course they can. randome Aug 2013 #19
No they guess at the "foreignness". If it were that precise they wouldn't have any US data. dkf Aug 2013 #21
That doesn't mean 20 million people gollygee Aug 2013 #14
Doesn't each query touch the entire database? dkf Aug 2013 #16
What does that have to do with anything? gollygee Aug 2013 #17
No...each message is data in the universe. dkf Aug 2013 #18
No gollygee Aug 2013 #22
I work with databases all the time. dkf Aug 2013 #24
I also work with databases gollygee Aug 2013 #25
Isn't that the "backdoor loophole" Wyden has been speaking of? dkf Aug 2013 #27
I don't think that is how it works. Very inefficient for one thing, and efficiency matters a lot. nt bemildred Aug 2013 #20
How else would a query work. It obviously needs a specified universe. dkf Aug 2013 #23
I don't know what the NSA does, or any spooks, but I know a good deal about databases. bemildred Aug 2013 #26
Which is why the government is at the forefront in developing ways to handle uber data. dkf Aug 2013 #28
Right, massive parallelism can help, but only with partitionable queries. bemildred Aug 2013 #31
True, but cross link a name, IP address, email, phone #s, etc together and isn't that one query? dkf Aug 2013 #35
Again I don't know, but if it was me ... bemildred Aug 2013 #38
Okay I hear you...I run (and must sometimes debug) several custom SQL programs dkf Aug 2013 #44
Please see post #41, I think that's the point. bemildred Aug 2013 #46
Like I posted earlier, they were using it in Iraq to predict attacks and I imagine unrest. dkf Aug 2013 #48
That's what they claim. So you believe them now? nt bemildred Aug 2013 #50
Originally I didn't understand why this would be of interest in times of chaos. dkf Aug 2013 #53
It's pretty messy. bemildred Aug 2013 #54
Your partioning point is a good one. randome Aug 2013 #29
Yes, I used to just wallow in this stuff, back in the 80s and 90s. nt bemildred Aug 2013 #32
Also this: NSA establishes $60 million data analytics lab at NC State Published: August 15, 2013 Up dkf Aug 2013 #30
Yes, no doubt. bemildred Aug 2013 #36
Well we both know many advances have been made through defense research. dkf Aug 2013 #37
This is computing theory, performance theory, it's math. Finite math. They aren't going to fix it. bemildred Aug 2013 #39
Unfortunately they found in Iraq that the more data they added the better the predictive capability dkf Aug 2013 #40
That's not math, is it? bemildred Aug 2013 #41
No...they were using it to predict things too. dkf Aug 2013 #45
Well, I have to go, nice chat. nt bemildred Aug 2013 #47
Yes! Appreciate it. dkf Aug 2013 #49
The algos they use in the US probably track the Dow. The CIA has been working on this sort of thing leveymg Aug 2013 #51
If so that puts a new spin on Fed actions. dkf Aug 2013 #55
I'm sure until recently, anyway, the point has been to stay well away from red lines. leveymg Aug 2013 #57
That is an excellent question... ljm2002 Aug 2013 #33
Greenwald, Ron Paul, ACLU Bad! Spying Good NoOneMan Aug 2013 #43
I thought it was explained pretty well in the article bhikkhu Aug 2013 #52
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