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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Tue Aug 20, 2013, 05:55 AM Aug 2013

What do "left" and "right" mean to you? [View all]

I read a piece by Noah Millman in the American Conservative a while ago that kind of summed up how I use the terms:

I do not believe there is a conservative party in America. There is, rather, a right-wing and a left-wing party, in each case relatively speaking. The Republican Party is relatively right-wing and the Democratic Party is relatively left-wing.

I’m using my own idiosyncratic definition of “right” and “left” here, but it’s an idiosyncrasy I’m increasingly fond of. The distinction between “right” and “left” in my view has to do with the relationship to “winners” and “losers” in society. The right is more interested in rewarding winners. The left is more interested in helping out losers.

I should be clear that “winners” and “losers” are not moral terms. If the game is rigged, then both “winners” and “losers” can be undeserving. You can make a moral case for helping “losers” on precisely the grounds that the game is rigged against them, and they deserve better than they are getting. But you can also make a case for helping “losers” entirely on the grounds of need, or on the grounds that inequality as such retards social progress, without regard to desert. Similarly, you can make a moral case for increasing the reward to “winners” on the grounds that the game is not rigged, and they deserve everything they’ve earned. But you can also make a case entirely on the grounds of dynamism, that rewarding “winners” is how you get a more successful society in aggregate, regardless of desert.

But the party of the right is going to be more concerned with the interests of groups that are winning (or have won in the past), whether fairly or unfairly, and the party of the left is more concerned with the interests of groups that are losing (or have not won in the past), again whether fairly or unfairly. That’s a political definition that, in my view, works pretty well over long stretches of time and through various permutations of “winners” and “losers.”


I think this is a good point, and is a separate question from whether one is progressive or conservative.

One can be a right-wing progressive (Herbert Hoover comes to mind): that would be belief that government should align itself with society's winners, and the temperament that big sweeping changes are more effective than adapting existing institutions. One can be a left-wing conservative (dare I say it, Barack Obama comes to mind): that would be the belief that government should align itself with society's losers, but that gradual change and adapting of existing institutions is the best course of action.

Anyways, I just think of this every time I see the libertarian-focused "Political Compass" brought out as inevitably seems to happen every so often: there are a lot of ways to divide the political spectrum into different axes.

EDIT: also, can anybody confirm that I'm correct that the actual origin of the terms is where the various estates sat in Louis XVI's court?
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I'm pretty much of a mind that (to put it simply) LeftofObama Aug 2013 #1
So what about leftist authoritarianism, or rightist libertarianism? Recursion Aug 2013 #4
The origin of the term "left" is the French Revolution RainDog Aug 2013 #2
Right, we both are on the left so we think "reward the winners" is a bullshit sentiment Recursion Aug 2013 #3
He may point out a pov, but that pov is not supported by data RainDog Aug 2013 #6
Well, Millman isn't particularly interested in left or right as he calls them out here Recursion Aug 2013 #10
not really RainDog Aug 2013 #12
Which of his economic positions are you thinking of? Recursion Aug 2013 #15
Winners and losers RainDog Aug 2013 #18
He's talking about the character in "War & Peace" Recursion Aug 2013 #19
Women, apparently, are losers according to this metric RainDog Aug 2013 #22
Yes, that would be exactly his argument Recursion Aug 2013 #26
Victims are not losers RainDog Aug 2013 #29
Call it "victims" and "predators" then if you prefer Recursion Aug 2013 #38
the left sides with the general welfare RainDog Aug 2013 #50
I'm a disabled female... Jasana Aug 2013 #62
Our neolithic ancestors were more advanced than rightwingers RainDog Aug 2013 #65
Napoleon, in War and Peace, is Napoleon the historical figure RainDog Aug 2013 #27
If Napoleon had conquered Russia RainDog Aug 2013 #33
The bulk of his career has been on the Street as a trader in derivites. He cashed out 3 years ago Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #32
He's an incrementalist, his interest in in the status quo which serves him, his 'thinking' is faith Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #25
This is correct nil desperandum Aug 2013 #34
Deficits were created by cutting taxes on the wealthy RainDog Aug 2013 #36
Actually, it was not the Estates General Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2013 #47
thanks for the correction RainDog Aug 2013 #51
I call bullshit on that article. cali Aug 2013 #5
It's not an article, it's a review of Tolstoy Recursion Aug 2013 #8
the author says it's his own definition RainDog Aug 2013 #11
So if you don't like the "winners/losers" dichotomy, what do you like? Recursion Aug 2013 #20
immature vs. mature RainDog Aug 2013 #23
I don't see how "winners" vs. "losers" is different from "1%" vs. "99%" Recursion Aug 2013 #28
99% is Democracy. 1% is oligarchy RainDog Aug 2013 #31
I think we're on the side of the downtrodden. The "losers" Recursion Aug 2013 #39
No. I'm on the side of justice, humanity and the general welfare RainDog Aug 2013 #45
+1 deutsey Aug 2013 #58
If you were to look at it in European political terms Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2013 #49
exactly n/t RainDog Aug 2013 #53
To me, being liberal is mostly about treating people equally. LuvNewcastle Aug 2013 #7
Personally, I think political labels are claptrap. Skidmore Aug 2013 #9
yeah but that's false burnodo Aug 2013 #13
But we're pretty clearly left "relative to" the Republicans Recursion Aug 2013 #14
Does Noah Williams write for pay, or is this amateur time? Quantess Aug 2013 #16
Did you read the whole piece? It's an interesting take on Tolstoy Recursion Aug 2013 #17
No, I didn't. Quantess Aug 2013 #24
The author is a lifelong Wall Street trader who cashed out in 2010 to 'write' for American Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #35
The guy is pretty stupid, if you ask me. n/t RainDog Aug 2013 #37
I think you nailed it well with 'vapid'. I'd also add self serving to his own status and story. Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #42
Aha, so he got his job through connections. Or nepotism. Quantess Aug 2013 #44
he's providing a hand job for narcissists n/t RainDog Aug 2013 #46
Note the similarities to Charlie 'I'm Winning' Sheen, unearned gigs, nepotism and cash... Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #48
In the most literal sense loyalsister Aug 2013 #21
"Not all conservatives are stupid people, but stupid people are groovedaddy Aug 2013 #30
Charlie Sheen and other spoiled brats have previously claimed that money = winning = everything. Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #40
Very good example Recursion Aug 2013 #41
Can you explain what you think that means? Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #43
so, you're basically buying in to this frame? RainDog Aug 2013 #54
What on earth are you talking about? Recursion Aug 2013 #57
I think your pov is determined by rightwing ideology RainDog Aug 2013 #61
Jesus Christ *of course* we're losing Recursion Aug 2013 #63
you don't understand what I have said, apparently RainDog Aug 2013 #64
As I posted a few years ago, my basic distinction is: LeftishBrit Aug 2013 #52
Port and Starboard. MineralMan Aug 2013 #55
Contrived political cant. bemildred Aug 2013 #56
I orbit Salon.com in a black helicopter. KG Aug 2013 #59
I missed the fight on this, apparently RainDog Aug 2013 #66
fake labels to enable a 2 fake party stranglehold nt markiv Aug 2013 #60
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