General Discussion

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)

140. You're right, and I am sorry ....

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:33 AM

Aug 2013

When I first saw your post I knew it was going to ignite a strong discussion, and I thought you did it for that purpose. I thought you knew that even asking that question was going to bring out some strong feelings. But I agree with you, it was a perfectly legitimate question and I guess the DU consensus is pretty clear.

My "it" post was in poor taste and I apologize for it. I deservedly got slapped around. I guess I am not as label sensitive as most. I am definitely not much of a "feelings" person as most here. I will try to adapt. And I still have a problem trying to resolve self-identity vs physical reality in both legal and ethical contexts. So, I guess I'll go with the consensus here and refer to PVT Manning as "her."

Still, a pretty interesting thread. I learned a lot.

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Highlight:

Calling Bradley Manning a She---Educate me DU. [View all] trumad Aug 2013 OP

I think it's proper to recognize how a person defines their gender, etc. bigtree Aug 2013 #1

heck, forget pronouns, I cannot get anybody to use my NAME hfojvt Aug 2013 #248

So true. laundry_queen Aug 2013 #259

I see it as a respect thing, but I may be paranoid hfojvt Aug 2013 #306

I think it's also generational laundry_queen Aug 2013 #311

I call people whatever they want to be called NightWatcher Aug 2013 #2

Question is--- trumad Aug 2013 #5

at this point, yes. The physique is not the de terming factor in gender identity. KittyWampus Aug 2013 #15

Yes -- the physique would not determine which gender a person identifies with. pnwmom Aug 2013 #262

The question isn't what gender you think Manning is; it's what gender Manning winter is coming Aug 2013 #17

+1000 Lex Aug 2013 #25

This message was self-deleted by its author KittyWampus Aug 2013 #31

Another way to look at it is that Manning isn't flipping her gender; society did when she was born Brickbat Aug 2013 #29

Great post. Thanks for humanizing the issue in such eloquent terms. - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #197

Thank you! Brickbat Aug 2013 #264

Excellent post dbackjon Aug 2013 #231

Thank you. Brickbat Aug 2013 #265

... RedCappedBandit Aug 2013 #240

... Brickbat Aug 2013 #267

Would you consider someone who came out of the closet still heterosexual? nt geek tragedy Aug 2013 #35

A bit different don't you think? trumad Aug 2013 #108

Nope. I used to think along lines similar to what you're saying, and it does geek tragedy Aug 2013 #134

That, is a very good way of looking at it IMO! n/t RKP5637 Aug 2013 #143

She isn't "flipping her gender" gollygee Aug 2013 #58

You consider yourself a Trumad. I think you're a Chet. Am I right to insist that you are Chet? Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #78

:):):) eom freeplessinseattle Aug 2013 #111

Trumad, understand the logic here, who knows better, you or the person? CreekDog Aug 2013 #232

When in doubt, and whenever possible, Voice for Peace Aug 2013 #309

The brain (or psyche, or whatever) doesn't match the body. That's the key to gender dysphoria. nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #317

I'd like you to call me hfojvt Aug 2013 #251

He was tried and sentenced as Bradley Manning. He certainly has the right to change his name TwilightGardener Aug 2013 #3

Of course the militray context provides easy language outs for those who are unsure or even those Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #56

Fair questions JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #4

Good post. trumad Aug 2013 #8

That's really all it comes down to. TDale313 Aug 2013 #22

Should be a mantra for everyone JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #80

Bingo! :) Little Star Aug 2013 #105

to some folks (not to me) this will prove how twisted and mentally disturbed Manning was made librechik Aug 2013 #175

I'm no expert, so this is how I see it, probably not what is right TransitJohn Aug 2013 #6

Now---if there is a sex change---that changes things, correct? trumad Aug 2013 #9

to me, exactly so. n/t TransitJohn Aug 2013 #11

No. Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #83

It doesn't happen overnight mockmonkey Aug 2013 #127

Can I assume that people who are better versed on this subject... Bay Boy Aug 2013 #289

Good Question mockmonkey Aug 2013 #304

Gender is determined in the brain, not the crotch. n/t backscatter712 Aug 2013 #14

+1 MNBrewer Aug 2013 #46

+1, n/t RKP5637 Aug 2013 #158

You are correct - that is wrong. Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #64

It is wrong, please have a look at my post #167 for an explanation why. idwiyo Aug 2013 #174

Yeah, I'm in the dark on this one, too. railsback Aug 2013 #7

gender identity is not about plumbing n/t cali Aug 2013 #18

So, it would seem, based on these parameters railsback Aug 2013 #30

Ignorant analogy. nt Lex Aug 2013 #34

I would expect a response like that railsback Aug 2013 #49

You should educate yourself. Lex Aug 2013 #79

I would say the same to you railsback Aug 2013 #94

I already have. You've demonstrated your lack of knowledge Lex Aug 2013 #99

Well then maybe you should explain to the rest of us why you're right. Because what you've Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #132

Maybe you should explain why I'm wrong railsback Aug 2013 #156

If physicality is based on enlightenment Aug 2013 #171

And to add on - Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #189

You have an entire thread full of people trying to do just that so you don't even have to bother Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #204

Ah, you assume I don't like so many assume the NSA is spying on everyone railsback Aug 2013 #223

no, you could not. Gender Dysphoria cali Aug 2013 #36

Yeah, seems like the DU is trapped in another quagmire of illogical thought railsback Aug 2013 #55

well, you are trapped in "illogical thought"- at best cali Aug 2013 #63

Thank you. That was the case I was trying to make .... oldhippie Aug 2013 #110

Did you read the comments? Did you learn anything? maddezmom Aug 2013 #115

Actually, I haven't received the DU mail results of that alert yet .... oldhippie Aug 2013 #159

You won't because it was not hidden but I think the comments are worth reading maddezmom Aug 2013 #161

Normally don't you get an email ..... oldhippie Aug 2013 #173

The only time you rec a message on apost that was not hidden is if you were a juror maddezmom Aug 2013 #176

OK, thanks. nt oldhippie Aug 2013 #186

have a look at post #167, please. idwiyo Aug 2013 #180

Ignorant? All of you say its 'mental' railsback Aug 2013 #345

Gender has nothing to do with the body. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #104

I'll tell ya why this response is great. Inkfreak Aug 2013 #321

That's not just apples and oranges, that's apples and... lugnuts or something... nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #319

In other words, its purely a state of mind railsback Aug 2013 #324

By that logic, any other psychiatric disorder is "purely a state of mind." nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #325

What makes a woman a woman, then? railsback Aug 2013 #327

That's a very complicated question. It's a combo of anatomy, hormones, social roles etc. nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #328

Which brings me back to this: railsback Aug 2013 #329

They have the choice. But I figure it's common courtesy to call her what she wants to be called. nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #330

I have no problem with your reasoning railsback Aug 2013 #332

Honestly, as a heterosexual, cisgender man, this stuff is as alien to my experience as to anyone's. nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #333

apples and oranges as it is said, railsback. Cha Aug 2013 #334

I have not had a burning desire to bear children Vanje Aug 2013 #340

Double down on what, exactly? railsback Aug 2013 #344

...... Vanje Aug 2013 #339

Can you define it then? Matariki Aug 2013 #258

Gender Identity is subjective. What else could it be? cali Aug 2013 #268

I looked up the definition of the word 'gender' Matariki Aug 2013 #275

Please have a look at the post #167 for an explanation. idwiyo Aug 2013 #179

I sincerely don't know Xyzse Aug 2013 #10

Wait and see what? Lex Aug 2013 #28

What others call Manning Xyzse Aug 2013 #32

Me too ...... oldhippie Aug 2013 #37

I placed more of my reasoning in my edit Xyzse Aug 2013 #42

Why would you not simpy ask your friend what forms of address they'd like used? Too much? Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #88

Because she hasn't told me yet Xyzse Aug 2013 #101

I did not ask 'why don't you presume' I asked why you do not inquire as to their wishes. Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #147

Well, it hasn't gotten to that point yet Xyzse Aug 2013 #155

It is disrepectful both to Manning Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #50

Thanks Xyzse Aug 2013 #76

Talking about the past is more complex Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #90

Understood Xyzse Aug 2013 #106

Most trans* people (or spouses of trans* people) Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #112

Once that comes up in the conversation I would ask Xyzse Aug 2013 #118

If you are interested to know please have a look at the article in post #167 idwiyo Aug 2013 #181

Thanks Xyzse Aug 2013 #194

I beleive it's a right thing to do because of what Chelsea asked us to do. The article simply idwiyo Aug 2013 #200

Well, it is more in regards to respect for me. Xyzse Aug 2013 #205

NP, I am definitely cool with that and just like you I will treat Ms Chelsea Manning as a female idwiyo Aug 2013 #212

The only person with the right to determine Chelsea Manning's gender identity is Chelsea herself. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #12

The fact that this has turned into such a big issue alan_phillips Aug 2013 #13

I have always used He until the person themselves said it was ok to say She or visa versa. Safetykitten Aug 2013 #16

Simple way to look at this NuclearDem Aug 2013 #19

Exactly. Safetykitten Aug 2013 #24

Post removed Post removed Aug 2013 #20

Please use the pronouns Chelsea has requested. n/t Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #23

Would you hate Manning as much? The Link Aug 2013 #26

I don't hate him. But he is guilty. He even apologized. MjolnirTime Aug 2013 #33

It is not sexuality. Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #44

Total confusion here, isn't it? MNBrewer Aug 2013 #52

Why is LGBT one term? Quit splitting hairs. MjolnirTime Aug 2013 #59

LGBT is not "one term" . . . markpkessinger Aug 2013 #150

Haven't they also added a Q LostOne4Ever Aug 2013 #312

Sexuality is related to the third. Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #72

Ms. Toad, I am bookmarking this thread just so I can DevonRex Aug 2013 #307

Thank you. Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #310

HER gender identity is not the same as HER sexuality. I have no idea what Chelsea's orientation Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #95

She's guilty. She apologized. She might not have committed the crimes, IMO, DevonRex Aug 2013 #241

We're finally rid of that troll LittleBlue Aug 2013 #238

After I just spent all that time DevonRex Aug 2013 #244

Finally! idwiyo Aug 2013 #245

That is a point I noticed treestar Aug 2013 #40

We should also beware of making Manning into a celebrity. randome Aug 2013 #48

I can see where the celebrity is getting the issue talked about treestar Aug 2013 #107

Of course and as you both know, the gender issues were used as part of the defense in the trial Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #114

Advice of councel? One_Life_To_Give Aug 2013 #113

How trans* individuals refer to themselves in the past Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #21

I always try to match pronouns to what the person identifies as Lee-Lee Aug 2013 #27

DU might not be the place to be educated. earthside Aug 2013 #38

because it is definitive. She identifies as female and has asked to be referred to as such. cali Aug 2013 #57

what about in a medical setting? Niceguy1 Aug 2013 #323

And there was a whole range of scientific, medical, and political opinions Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #96

Would you accept an explanation from World Health Organisation? idwiyo Aug 2013 #193

My trans friends would argue your point and they'd be correct justiceischeap Aug 2013 #210

My question: why do we have to use pronouns? Myrina Aug 2013 #39

How does it work? gollygee Aug 2013 #41

I agree with that. trumad Aug 2013 #116

My daughters and I had a previous discussion about this. randome Aug 2013 #43

How about "it"? oldhippie Aug 2013 #45

disgusting and hateful remark. cali Aug 2013 #47

Do we always have to refer to people as they wish? oldhippie Aug 2013 #62

That's about credentials, not identity. Sorry, you're so unable to discern the difference cali Aug 2013 #68

This message was self-deleted by its author trumad Aug 2013 #119

You just jump right in there in the crazy pond, don't you? Safetykitten Aug 2013 #69

When it comes to an aspect of ourselves...yeah! LostOne4Ever Aug 2013 #313

She isn't gender neutral. gollygee Aug 2013 #51

Stay classy. Don't ever change. I will call you "ClassyHippy" from now on. Safetykitten Aug 2013 #53

Oh, dont be so hard on oldhippie... bunnies Aug 2013 #120

I guess it is indicative of my state of mind ..... oldhippie Aug 2013 #168

Heres the thing. bunnies Aug 2013 #188

Never it, that is dehumanizing maddezmom Aug 2013 #54

But you see, that's where the REAL people work and play... Safetykitten Aug 2013 #98

I just served on this jury.Hopefully it comes back 6-0 sufrommich Aug 2013 #61

Which just goes to prove, .... oldhippie Aug 2013 #66

people are discussing it and trying to explain cali Aug 2013 #70

That discussion includes calling a person an "it"? That crazy pond down there with Classy guy, go... Safetykitten Aug 2013 #75

Just to follow up ..... oldhippie Aug 2013 #157

MMMMmmm. I think you got your answer. Vanje Aug 2013 #341

You are suggesting we call a human being an "it". sufrommich Aug 2013 #71

Ugh. the jury voted 3-3 to leave it. cali Aug 2013 #73

Agree,very,very disappointing. sufrommich Aug 2013 #81

Here are two, from a different jury Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #162

Charming. Safetykitten Aug 2013 #226

Not suprising in the least. Safetykitten Aug 2013 #82

I re-alerted and checked TOS. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #103

It's the same sort of shit SouthernYankeeBelle got away with for years... WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2013 #160

How do we rationalize using "they" .... oldhippie Aug 2013 #74

It's ungrammaticial but doesn't have the depersonalization problems of using "it". winter is coming Aug 2013 #86

There are a lot of English majors who are fine with violating this grammar rule. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #97

It's still wrong Lex Aug 2013 #184

Languages evolve. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #187

That rule hasn't evolved. Lex Aug 2013 #191

Why not? Language evolves through use. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #195

I'd much rather violate a grammar rule gollygee Aug 2013 #234

That's grammatically incorrect Lex Aug 2013 #87

I imagine if the discussion is perceived as sincere, there would be little problems LanternWaste Aug 2013 #239

The comments were interesting. LiberalAndProud Aug 2013 #84

Well hope they learned something here....however I doubt it. maddezmom Aug 2013 #92

No, and your reasoning about inanimate objects should be enough. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #65

I had a post hidden responding to this kind of disgusting shit last night. The Link Aug 2013 #67

jury voted to leave it. 3-3 cali Aug 2013 #77

If ever there was proof that the jury system was broken... TDale313 Aug 2013 #117

It was never broken. Shit happens. Safetykitten Aug 2013 #122

Absolutely not. That's dehumanizing and vile. n/t backscatter712 Aug 2013 #91

OK, I give up ..... oldhippie Aug 2013 #121

Ya know...you had me till that last sentence....almost! Safetykitten Aug 2013 #131

"it was meant for a discussion starter"...and they have that discussion all over the planet just for Safetykitten Aug 2013 #141

Ze would be better One_Life_To_Give Aug 2013 #128

Look, I understand that you enlightenment Aug 2013 #185

Jesus Christ - calling a human being "it" ??? cyberswede Aug 2013 #199

Are you freaking serious? great white snark Aug 2013 #290

"They" is becoming a popular pronoun for gender queer individuals. Gravitycollapse Aug 2013 #315

A rose, is a rose, is a rose nt clarice Aug 2013 #60

how ironic that you're quoting Stein. cali Aug 2013 #89

But they are not really managing to quote Stein, she used no commas Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #142

I stand corrected. nt clarice Aug 2013 #146

Glad you caught that. 10 bonus points. nt clarice Aug 2013 #148

A very successful thread, trumad ..... oldhippie Aug 2013 #85

What the fuck? trumad Aug 2013 #124

I will raise that what the fuck with a what fuckery is this? Safetykitten Aug 2013 #133

You're right, and I am sorry .... oldhippie Aug 2013 #140

NP trumad Aug 2013 #165

GLAAD has a great resource that answers many questions about transgender people: coffeenap Aug 2013 #93

Wow, this is beyond words. SMH stevenleser Aug 2013 #100

Because of what I wrote? trumad Aug 2013 #126

I guess I have trouble believing that people on this site don't know better. stevenleser Aug 2013 #166

You have trouble believing that education on such a matter is necessary? trumad Aug 2013 #178

I did. I had some questions answered by reading this very thread. Inkfreak Aug 2013 #322

I'm having problems particularly with this part of what you wrote... Emit Aug 2013 #220

At first that is how I read it mockmonkey Aug 2013 #237

Really? trumad Aug 2013 #250

Trumad, I see now that I misread your post. Emit Aug 2013 #284

no problem trumad Aug 2013 #287

I think you misinterpreted that. noamnety Aug 2013 #256

Yes, thank you, I see that now. n/t Emit Aug 2013 #285

I almost commented on that myself Revanchist Aug 2013 #277

Yes, I understand now. Tx. n/t Emit Aug 2013 #286

The process of a sex change DonCoquixote Aug 2013 #102

There's probably no 'educating' you leftstreet Aug 2013 #109

Try reading that again--- trumad Aug 2013 #129

Post removed Post removed Aug 2013 #136

So---let me get this straight trumad Aug 2013 #172

Your OP is fail leftstreet Aug 2013 #183

In about 2 hours the OP has 200 replies trumad Aug 2013 #198

I used to say Attention Whore, but I don't now leftstreet Aug 2013 #201

I use to say Douchebag---and I still do. trumad Aug 2013 #206

'used' to say leftstreet Aug 2013 #211

wow...is that all you got? trumad Aug 2013 #215

I'm sooo confused by the hostility some people have.... penultimate Aug 2013 #260

forum behavior trumad Aug 2013 #266

This message was self-deleted by its author itsrobert Aug 2013 #123

False. Until she has surgery, she is still *physically* male. winter is coming Aug 2013 #130

This message was self-deleted by its author itsrobert Aug 2013 #137

yes, disrespect. She identifies as female. she wants her body to reflect her identity. cali Aug 2013 #139

Manning's gender identity is female, her body is male. winter is coming Aug 2013 #144

This message was self-deleted by its author itsrobert Aug 2013 #149

Referring to Chelsea as "him" isn't respectful. winter is coming Aug 2013 #154

Based on what joeglow3 Aug 2013 #298

If it followed the X and Y chromosomes, we wouldn't have gender dysphoria. winter is coming Aug 2013 #299

The Scientist in you? LostOne4Ever Aug 2013 #314

Yes, it does. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #218

What is the purpose of this post? To prove how bigoted you are against transgender people? nt stevenleser Aug 2013 #269

This message was self-deleted by its author itsrobert Aug 2013 #273

It's bigoted because noamnety Aug 2013 #276

Exactly itsrobert Aug 2013 #278

In this case, you are openly presenting yourself as a bigot noamnety Aug 2013 #291

Your bigotry is noted. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #145

Jesus is dead itsrobert Aug 2013 #152

Great graphic, although I fear it has gone right over itsrobert's head. - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #190

Please link to a request for surgery. Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #151

Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body? gollygee Aug 2013 #163

Its sunday afternoon Vanje Aug 2013 #342

This post will always represent a fine example of transphobic bigotry. Nothing will change that. idwiyo Aug 2013 #227

I have alerted. nt stevenleser Aug 2013 #263

I gave up on alerting. I just don't see the point anymore. Please, post the decision here idwiyo Aug 2013 #297

I'm not human, i want to known as GOD now. NM_Birder Aug 2013 #125

the ignorance in your post is par for the course in this thread cali Aug 2013 #135

psssst...it was a joke, I actually like being human. NM_Birder Aug 2013 #279

God, you're an ass. JBoy Aug 2013 #138

Well done, JBoy. bunnies Aug 2013 #169

now THAT was funny ! I knew SOMEBODY would get it. NM_Birder Aug 2013 #280

This is the same nasty false equivalence that right wingers sufrommich Aug 2013 #153

yikes ! I made a bad joke, and you segway into marriage with animals ? NM_Birder Aug 2013 #283

You may have a big problem with that until you can express a coherent thought. nt Zorra Aug 2013 #177

uh...you mean I can't really be a GOD ?...bummer my bad typing skills quash another dream. NM_Birder Aug 2013 #281

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NuclearDem Aug 2013 #216

meh, you're right maybe not funny, but good for a chuckle. NM_Birder Aug 2013 #282

No. Vanje Aug 2013 #343

I have been a patient advocate to a transgender nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #164

Please, have a look at the article below, it will explain a lot to you. idwiyo Aug 2013 #167

Here are a few sources for you, so you can compare information in order for you to Zorra Aug 2013 #170

You've discovered that people who ask the question are automatically attacked. Orsino Aug 2013 #182

I am not going to attack you. If you are interested to know more, please have a look at the article idwiyo Aug 2013 #196

That answers the OP's question, but not mine. Orsino Aug 2013 #203

It explains a genetic component, the very base of identity. it also explains why secondary sexual idwiyo Aug 2013 #209

Sorry, but I don't believe it on your say-so. Orsino Aug 2013 #214

I am not 'testifying' for anyone. I provided a basic scientific explanation from a respected idwiyo Aug 2013 #217

I don't know when Manning's journey began, and neither do you. Orsino Aug 2013 #219

When did yours start? idwiyo Aug 2013 #225

I don't know. Orsino Aug 2013 #228

According to your previous posts there must be a moment in your life when you 'knew' what your idwiyo Aug 2013 #235

Reread #217 n/t Orsino Aug 2013 #236

I don't need to re-read my own post. Is it safe to assume you actually understand how rude idwiyo Aug 2013 #242

It's not rude to speculate about the come and go of human sexuality and gender. Orsino Aug 2013 #335

Chelsea Manning asked everyone to address her as female. THAT is all that matters. idwiyo Aug 2013 #338

Clearly, that is all that matters to some people. Orsino Aug 2013 #346

Gender is not only biological. You refer to someone by the gender they identify with. Hosnon Aug 2013 #192

Actually, I'd argue that gender isn't biological at all. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #230

I think people are confusing mental with the brain... Humanist_Activist Aug 2013 #326

You don't call Bradley Manning a she. KamaAina Aug 2013 #202

Yes, it's confusing and even scary. Orsino Aug 2013 #207

We all start out as Newest Reality Aug 2013 #208

Just a Tien1985 Aug 2013 #301

It will likely be determined by the military courts markiv Aug 2013 #213

Educate yourself. eilen Aug 2013 #221

Calling me Angelina Jolie doesn't make me a woman (I'm a male....) lastlib Aug 2013 #222

Sex and gender are not the same thing. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #229

Angelina, this is Brad...are you not telling me something? Safetykitten Aug 2013 #233

what is it with this willful ignorance cali Aug 2013 #243

Not knowing is one thing. Or hell, even not *wanting* to know. nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #331

Have a look at the article below please. I am interested in your opinion. idwiyo Aug 2013 #253

Explain to me LostOne4Ever Aug 2013 #316

we are the gender we say we are. we may have a sex that doesn't match our gender La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2013 #224

Some of the responses to this thread... SMH... RedCappedBandit Aug 2013 #246

don't a few bad comments ruin the discussion. trumad Aug 2013 #249

Post removed Post removed Aug 2013 #247

Gender is mental, and gender is not the same as sex. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #254

Advice for not sounding like a bigot: noamnety Aug 2013 #270

The person who downloaded the data and gave it to Wiki is a MAN named Bradley Manning BlueStreak Aug 2013 #252

Chelsea was formerly known a Bradley Manning. Chelsea is still a pfc Manning. She specifically idwiyo Aug 2013 #300

If I ever meet this person, I will address her with any name he/she prefers BlueStreak Aug 2013 #303

Trumad, you are someone I love to read in the sports forum - TBF Aug 2013 #255

maybe I used that term loosely. .."educate" trumad Aug 2013 #271

Well I hope some of the answers have helped - TBF Aug 2013 #293

Thank you for asking this question Matariki Aug 2013 #257

Trumad...as I visit prisioners, I am sometimes confronted with this issue. msanthrope Aug 2013 #261

Great answer Msanthrope Matariki Aug 2013 #272

Thank you. I am no fan of Manning, but basic respect for her dignity indicates that we msanthrope Aug 2013 #274

Your post restores my hope Union Scribe Aug 2013 #294

Great post. nt TBF Aug 2013 #295

Post removed Post removed Aug 2013 #288

How simple-minded. nt Lex Aug 2013 #292

Excuse me? TBF Aug 2013 #296

I keep thinking of that Twain quote, about being better to appear a fool, than to open one's mouth nomorenomore08 Aug 2013 #320

Might've helped if he'd not used a play on words dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #302

I can't wait for the day when he and she aren't used as pronouns but pe is used instead. valerief Aug 2013 #305

admirable of you to ask for education, Trumad steve2470 Aug 2013 #308

Hiya maybe this graphic can help LostOne4Ever Aug 2013 #318

very good chart marions ghost Aug 2013 #336

If the individual makes crystal clear in public that "he" wishes to be a "she" marions ghost Aug 2013 #337