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In reply to the discussion: Did I just stop by DU and find people AGAINST military action on Syria? [View all]Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)64. Liberals arguing that the U.S. should give weapons to Syrian rebels underestimate Assad's power
I strongly recommend reading this article in salon.com by Gary Kamiya - It is a number of months old, But the basic points still apply. I think this might help you understand the situation a little bit better:
http://www.salon.com/2012/04/13/dont_arm_syrias_rebels/singleton/
http://www.salon.com/2012/04/13/dont_arm_syrias_rebels/singleton/
snips:
This is not a knee-jerk left-wing response. It has nothing to do with Iraq. Nor does it have anything to do with the proxy war between the U.S. and its allies and Iran and its allies. It is not driven by pacifism or opposition to all war. All U.S. wars are not axiomatically foolish, evil or driven by brutal self-interest (although most of them since World War II have been). The airstrikes on Kosovo and the Libya campaign were justified (although the jury is still out on the latter intervention). If arming the Syrian opposition would result in fewer deaths and a faster transition to a peaceful, open, democratic society, we should arm them.
That analysis has been provided by a number of in-depth reports, most notably a new study by the International Crisis Group, as well as the excellent on-the-ground reporting of Nir Rosen for Al-Jazeera. The bottom line is simple. The war has become a zero-sum game for Assad. If he loses, he dies. But the only way he can lose is if he is abandoned by his crucial external patron, Russia, which is extremely unlikely to happen absent some slaughter so egregious that Moscow feels it has to cut ties with him. Assad has sufficient domestic support to hold on for a long time, and a huge army that is not likely to defect en masse. Under these circumstances, giving arms to the rebels, however much it may make conscience-stricken Western observers feel better, will simply make the civil war much bloodier and its outcome even more chaotic and dangerous.
The key point concerns Assads domestic support. Contrary to the widely held belief that most Syrians support the opposition and are opposed to the Assad regime, Syrians are in fact deeply divided. The countrys minorities the ruling Alawites, Christians and Druze tend to support the regime, if only because they fear what will follow its downfall. (The grocery on my corner in San Francisco is owned by a Christian Syrian from a village outside Damascus. When I asked him what he thought about what was going on in his country, he said, Its not like what you see on TV. Assad is a nice guy. Hes trying to do the right thing.) As Rosen makes clear, Syrias ruling Alawite minority is the key to Assads survival: Absent an outside invasion, the regime will not fall unless the Alawites turn on it. But the Alawites fear reprisals if the Sunni-dominated opposition, some of whose members have threatened to exterminate the Alawites, defeats the Assad regime. The fear of a sectarian war, exacerbated by the murky and incoherent nature of the opposition, means that the minorities are unlikely to join the opposition in large numbers.
...
Our national instinct is to come riding to the rescue. It goes against our character to simply sit on our hands. Our sincere, naive and self-centered belief that America can fix everything, and our equally sincere, naive and self-centered belief that moral outrage justifies intervention, is a powerful tide, pulling us toward getting directly involved in Syrias civil war.
But in the real world, we cannot always come riding to the rescue. Sometimes, we have no choice but to watch tragedy unfold, because anything we do will create an even bigger tragedy.
http://www.salon.com/2012/04/13/dont_arm_syrias_rebels/singleton/
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Did I just stop by DU and find people AGAINST military action on Syria? [View all]
Barack_America
Aug 2013
OP
We don't know who's responsible, but we do know who might benefit by this atrocity - the opposition
leveymg
Aug 2013
#81
Have you never heard of "False Flag" provocation used to justify Military Interventions??
bvar22
Aug 2013
#159
And even if we got involved, the chance of actually making a net positive contrib is close to zero.
reformist2
Aug 2013
#94
Geez can't somoene else be the world's police for once? Why do we have to be in perpetual war?
liberal_at_heart
Aug 2013
#3
Russia and China are not the only countries in the UN. There are lots and lots and lots of countries
liberal_at_heart
Aug 2013
#33
Wow, what a helpful post, NOT. Hey, anyone who objects to little kids getting gassed....
MADem
Aug 2013
#70
You are obnoxious and rude, and proudly so, too. You're also dead wrong--as usual.
MADem
Aug 2013
#170
There's no moral difference anymore between U.S. wars and Russian and Chinese wars.
Ken Burch
Aug 2013
#61
I am against all current foreign US military action. Your OP does not call for diplomatic action,
Vincardog
Aug 2013
#187
That's an interesting list of grievances to equate with the use of chemical weapons...
Barack_America
Aug 2013
#13
Our civil rights record now is no good, but it has Assad's beat to shit.
Barack_America
Aug 2013
#30
It'll still be our troops and our money even if action is through the UN.
Barack_America
Aug 2013
#39
Whoa, I don't usually think of the UN as launching offensive actions. Not that they don't see their
freshwest
Aug 2013
#155
You are confusing the UN with NATO. We give MONEY to UN , and are cheap with the troops.
MADem
Aug 2013
#193
I agree. No thank you. A sectarian war with dozens of factions, 90% of whom dont like us anyway
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#165
Being against an attempt to start WWIII is not part and parcel with excusing what is going on.
Fire Walk With Me
Aug 2013
#12
WWIII? Are you fucking kidding? Even Putin wouldn't be that brazenly stupid!
AverageJoe90
Aug 2013
#27
Consider how things escalate and egos flare and attack must be met with attack.
Fire Walk With Me
Aug 2013
#151
More than cynical, it is weaponized rhetoric. The words themselves are an agrressive demand for
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#97
I'm assuming you're in the Armed Forces or have a friend or loved one who is ?
steve2470
Aug 2013
#24
And I find myself seconding Recursion, this is a serious matter and should be addressed as such
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#102
Please provide your proof of Assad's guilt to the UN. I'm sure they'll appreciate it
Scootaloo
Aug 2013
#37
If folks were being gassed in Israel and people were against intervening
The Straight Story
Aug 2013
#47
And people didn't think hitler would invade poland, etc, because it was stupid.
The Straight Story
Aug 2013
#52
How was hitler like hitler at the start? He didn't just kill millions in one weekend
The Straight Story
Aug 2013
#75
The war against the Nazis was not about their 'killing millions' it was about their territorial
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#109
I understand your concern. Not all of us are lopsidedly pro-Isreal. I can't stand that they keep
liberal_at_heart
Aug 2013
#53
We the people who frequent these pages have undergone somewhat abusive treatment
SleeplessinSoCal
Aug 2013
#49
We don't have the money to do it. Maybe if we cut back on cancer granny-arresting SWAT teams
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2013
#57
That OP sounds like something the Imperial War Office at Whitehall could have come out with in 1914.
Ken Burch
Aug 2013
#60
Liberals arguing that the U.S. should give weapons to Syrian rebels underestimate Assad's power
Douglas Carpenter
Aug 2013
#64
The Holocaust was not carried out during a civil war in Germany. How many civil wars do we join in?
freshwest
Aug 2013
#66
Why is that a problem? I see the problem that many of them are, and almost all work with them.
David__77
Aug 2013
#181
IF the Assad regime were to be overthrown -- and that is very big IF - what next?
Douglas Carpenter
Aug 2013
#80
don't be misled by a few loudmouths - 90% of us want more wars in the Middle East
Douglas Carpenter
Aug 2013
#95
You're surprised that liberals are anti-war? Who do you believe the USA should back in this fight
myrna minx
Aug 2013
#101
I guess many do not trust the military to handle this correctly. Wonder why? n-t
Logical
Aug 2013
#106
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Douglas Carpenter
Aug 2013
#113
funny coincidence-- most people who recommended this OP also recommended pro-surveillance OP's
Douglas Carpenter
Aug 2013
#208
"Syrian rebels won't advance U.S. interests: Joint Chiefs chairman"
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2013
#114
Why don't we invite John McCain and Lindsey Graham over and see what they think?
kentuck
Aug 2013
#119
Keep in mind that, in avenging these deaths, we would be fighting for Al-Quaida or Hezbollah
riqster
Aug 2013
#120
Sick, isn't it? I can't believe it either. It's not like we have a dog in this fight, especially
Nay
Aug 2013
#132
And you think a guy who murders people with remote controlled planes is the best
Arctic Dave
Aug 2013
#125
What's preventing you from going? During the Spanish Civil War, some Americans went.
AnotherMcIntosh
Aug 2013
#126
I am very happy you just stopped by DU and found people AGAINST military action on Syria.
Autumn
Aug 2013
#137
Don't you think there is a legitimate thing called the global watch dog ?
Wash. state Desk Jet
Aug 2013
#150
"Global community" = London, Paris, Washington, and maybe Bonn and Rome
Comrade Grumpy
Aug 2013
#157
Well then in your opinion I suppose that leaves plenty of room for real change.
Wash. state Desk Jet
Aug 2013
#197
Are you going to enlist and join this "noble cause"? Or urge your children or other young
Lydia Leftcoast
Aug 2013
#161
So the way to stop killing with one particular kind of weapon is to kill ALOT MORE people
yurbud
Aug 2013
#178
Why do you believe what our gov't says about chem weapons, and even if used, that that's the reason
yurbud
Aug 2013
#180
"The DU community now condones chemical murder of innocent civilians?"
WorseBeforeBetter
Aug 2013
#186