General Discussion

joshcryer

(62,536 posts)

174. Pretty incoherent, isn't it?

Sun Aug 25, 2013, 04:19 AM

Aug 2013

Citing the "proxy army" when that simply means that we don't support those who we don't think can win, really. The support of the Libyan revolutionaries was because it was clear that they would win if they had support, it was three cities, and from three different directions.

In Syria, unfortunately, there are no lines, the desperate groups are many, and the FSA has never become a distinct group. It has been dissolved and recreated a half dozen times through different groups, a good deal of whom were expats who want to be involved but know nothing about what's happening on the ground. Expats were involved in Libya but none were elected and it was entirely internal.

The Libya bashing is of course unsurprising and expected when Libya is the only country in the Arab Spring to be doing pretty well. Even Tunisia is having protests recently against their islamist government. You don't see that in Libya because Libya is mostly secular.

Yet the revolutionaries are called "fake." So out of touch.

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Did I just stop by DU and find people PUSHING for war against Syria? [View all] Ken Burch Aug 2013 OP

Remember in the 2000 debates when Gore said he wished we'd invaded Rwanda? Recursion Aug 2013 #1

Some people are obsessed with trying to prove, despite the overwhelming evidence, Ken Burch Aug 2013 #3

Which black, brown, or yellow people were we killing in Bosnia and Kosovo? Recursion Aug 2013 #5

Bosnia and Kosovo were one-offs. Ken Burch Aug 2013 #6

Iraq and Afghanistan were one-offs Recursion Aug 2013 #12

No, they were what USUALLY happens. Ken Burch Aug 2013 #16

Do you legitimately not see the differences, or are you like... drunk? high? DireStrike Aug 2013 #34

I'm not the one pretending there's some constant template for US military actions Recursion Aug 2013 #37

Can you give an example of a US military action/war, other than the balkans, which was not for these DireStrike Aug 2013 #72

Yes, we had secret wars in Central America, backed Coups in Latin America sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #104

Actually we were in both countries at least twice. Neither time benefited either country. sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #79

Bosnia and Kosovo didn't have the elements that Syria have. bluestate10 Aug 2013 #147

I was going to respond here - but decided it deserved its own thread. HumansAndResources Aug 2013 #163

that's truly a lame argument. cali Aug 2013 #22

How is questioning the usefulness of U.S. military intervention "paternalist"? Ken Burch Aug 2013 #25

We killed civilians in Kosovo, quite a few of them. another_liberal Aug 2013 #41

Really, it just HAS to be about race ALL the time, doesnt it? 7962 Aug 2013 #137

It's must be some kind of alchemy or an attempt to square the circle. JVS Aug 2013 #75

R2P was directly created because of Rwanda. joshcryer Aug 2013 #4

No leftist results came of R2P Ken Burch Aug 2013 #7

OFFS. Syria produces less oil than Vietnam Recursion Aug 2013 #9

Ok, then, for the "spheres of influence" game... Ken Burch Aug 2013 #13

False statement Ichingcarpenter Aug 2013 #14

I've been over this too many times. joshcryer Aug 2013 #15

Gaddafi was already doomed to go out of power by the time "the West" stepped in. Ken Burch Aug 2013 #18

Libya is a mess right now. Not for the 'western business' Corps and its puppet government sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #111

"Funny that we don't 'support the rebels, who are actually REAL rebels in Bahrain, or in Uzbekistan" EX500rider Aug 2013 #118

I believe people like Hillary who told us we used a 'proxie army' in Libya and 'that is how we sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #129

Pretty incoherent, isn't it? joshcryer Aug 2013 #174

The ONLY winners in Libya were the Global Banks, The IMF, ... bvar22 Aug 2013 #159

I just knew I'd find you here beating the drums of war. nt Bonobo Aug 2013 #24

Nope. I am on record against intervening in Syria. joshcryer Aug 2013 #27

Is there a way to insult someone LOVINGLY? Ken Burch Aug 2013 #30

I'm used to passive aggressive insults from that poster. joshcryer Aug 2013 #33

This message was self-deleted by its author Bonobo Aug 2013 #40

Considering the hateful shit you poured out in the last 24 hours... Bonobo Aug 2013 #31

Angst? I'm merely recognizing the character. joshcryer Aug 2013 #32

Libya was decidely in terms of installing a more compliant government Arctic Dave Aug 2013 #86

The west is already trying to split Libya up. joshcryer Aug 2013 #164

While it was not immediately successful in Burma it did lead to a sustained effort to create grantcart Aug 2013 #135

Ahh, yeah, I didn't mean it was responsible for the deaths. joshcryer Aug 2013 #176

I don't have time to follow the details but all of the remarks, sans yours, have missed grantcart Aug 2013 #187

Except the Clinton/Gore administration wasn't "the left" MotherPetrie Aug 2013 #59

Gore wanted to stop the genocide. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #108

but this will be the war to end all wars and to keep the world safe for democracy Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #2

And the League of Nations and the Treaty of Versailles will take care of everything else Ken Burch Aug 2013 #8

I don't Know Egnever Aug 2013 #10

Yes, and I hope that you always do. Bolo Boffin Aug 2013 #11

I favor territorial defense of American soil from outside attack. Ken Burch Aug 2013 #20

What about stopping a Hitler-type who is committing genocide? n/t SylviaD Aug 2013 #146

That hasn't been what any recent wars were really about. Ken Burch Aug 2013 #149

..but if there really was a madman committing genocide, don't we have a moral obligation to stop it? SylviaD Aug 2013 #153

Where are people "pushing for war" either here or in DC? MADem Aug 2013 #17

We'll just use a few nice, clean cruise missles, eh? another_liberal Aug 2013 #42

Only with the concurrence of the United Nations. MADem Aug 2013 #46

Forgot Iraq and Afghanistan already? another_liberal Aug 2013 #54

So, you want the UN to just ignore this and let Syria keep gassing little kids, then? MADem Aug 2013 #78

If the UN decides a peacekeeping mission is needed pscot Aug 2013 #105

Pssst.....I've got some shocking news for you...we DO this already!!! We've done it for decades! MADem Aug 2013 #106

No, of course not . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #112

No, but your inability to see my POV merited that response. MADem Aug 2013 #113

It would be so nice . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #116

IF al Assad or any other actor is gassing people, and we are able to determine MADem Aug 2013 #119

Colin Powell held up a vial of anthrax at the United Nations, and the rest is history. another_liberal Aug 2013 #126

And what does he have to do with this situation? Hmmmm? Nothing? MADem Aug 2013 #170

The problem is the types of weapons here 7962 Aug 2013 #139

It depends entirely on where the weapons are located. MADem Aug 2013 #172

While I agree that the way theyre stored and location is important, 7962 Aug 2013 #184

Even though "we" would NOT be thick "on the ground" doing a CW destruction protocol MADem Aug 2013 #186

If the UN does nothing, yes. It is not our responsibility to clean up every genocidal mess bluestate10 Aug 2013 #150

Do you hear me talking about acting outside a UN imprimatur? No? Well, then why go off on me MADem Aug 2013 #168

This message was self-deleted by its author TreasonousBastard Aug 2013 #154

What happens when a cruise missile hits a "stockpile of poison"? Comrade Grumpy Aug 2013 #71

The weapons are binary, usually. MADem Aug 2013 #76

Yeah, looked how well that worked in Iraq the first time. Arctic Dave Aug 2013 #87

WTF are you talking about? MADem Aug 2013 #89

Really. How are they going to figure who did it? Arctic Dave Aug 2013 #91

There might be a note. MADem Aug 2013 #96

Yeah, we destroyed them in a slow methodical way. Arctic Dave Aug 2013 #98

That's what the UN team is going to have to sort out. MADem Aug 2013 #100

Saddam destroyed his WMDs. joshcryer Aug 2013 #177

I was refering to Clusterfuck One. Arctic Dave Aug 2013 #188

What about human shields? another_liberal Aug 2013 #132

al Assad is no Saddam. Saddam's population was pacified and cowed, even those who opposed him. MADem Aug 2013 #175

Doing nothing is far better . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #194

In the absence of proof of who did it, and since it was obviously not in the interest of Assad to do leveymg Aug 2013 #47

I don't mean to be rude, but isn't the purpose of a UN investigation to determine "who did it?" MADem Aug 2013 #49

My point stands - when the most likely culprit is not the regime, why does the US talk about missile leveymg Aug 2013 #50

You do realize that war planning is what they do at the Pentagon, each and every day? MADem Aug 2013 #67

There is heavy bias and no balance being expressed-no mention of the possibility that the opposition leveymg Aug 2013 #68

You haven't kept up with what is going on at the UN. MADem Aug 2013 #70

Nobody is going to be able to figure out who pulled the trigger on this one. Here's why: leveymg Aug 2013 #77

No offense, but you are assuming that the intel has to be "real time" and it doesn't. MADem Aug 2013 #81

If we have such a capability (and probably do) it's near real-time. So, if there were an order leveymg Aug 2013 #85

Not always--that would only be the case if we had an asset close to the throne, and MADem Aug 2013 #88

You seem to assume that we can't decrypt older Russian communications equipment. leveymg Aug 2013 #90

You can't decrypt what wasn't transmitted. MADem Aug 2013 #99

The worst thing we can do is to punish the wrong side and reward the perpetrators. leveymg Aug 2013 #101

Who is suggesting that we do that, though? There IS a UN team IN SYRIA, right NOW. MADem Aug 2013 #103

You mean THIS UN?: Ocelot Aug 2013 #131

+1 NealK Aug 2013 #166

The UN bought Powell's 'WMD on every corner' speech. Shock and Awe was sold as 'precision bombing' Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #57

Well, that will set the bar that much higher. It won't be us going in there and pleading for a MADem Aug 2013 #69

"we carpet bombed" EX500rider Aug 2013 #134

The UN didn't "buy" anything. joshcryer Aug 2013 #178

No, that is explicitly NOT the point. David__77 Aug 2013 #114

I don't think that is accurate. MADem Aug 2013 #121

No, it's accurate. David__77 Aug 2013 #141

Fox news? Come off it--they won't report, becaue they are constrained from making a determination. MADem Aug 2013 #169

"Evidence on tape?" Of what? David__77 Aug 2013 #171

One more time--the report will contain within it evidence of where the attack originated, MADem Aug 2013 #173

"Warfighting" is a PNAC term. Also, in answer to your question... DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #60

You've got to be kidding me. Way to show us what you don't know and don't understand! MADem Aug 2013 #66

You're a real kick. It might've worked if you didn't get over dramatic in paragraph 3 DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #107

Look who's talking--you've got the "over dramatic" market cornered. nt MADem Aug 2013 #109

In this thread. Rex Aug 2013 #92

I hate false constructs. This whole "Waaah waaah waah Syria WAR" bullshit is just trolling, IMO. MADem Aug 2013 #94

Nevermind. Rex Aug 2013 #95

Well, I agree with you. MADem Aug 2013 #97

What about the killing of children with drones? Ocelot Aug 2013 #122

If you want to talk about that, start a thread on it. Thi thread is about emergent issues in Syria MADem Aug 2013 #124

It's related because the OP is about US Mideast Policy, not your narrow view of it Ocelot Aug 2013 #128

I'm not giving orders, but what I am doing is giving the remarks issuing from you the weight they MADem Aug 2013 #179

Well they are WRONG. Human nature wants to help Rex Aug 2013 #130

Again, I agree with you. MADem Aug 2013 #180

It makes DU suck because? Ocelot Aug 2013 #136

Well, if that's the way you want to define YOURSELF, I am certainly not going to disabuse you of MADem Aug 2013 #182

Unfortunately, the Only Requirement for Posting on this Site Demeter Aug 2013 #19

I will stand by My prediction, BillyRibs Aug 2013 #21

I have also been Ilsa Aug 2013 #36

Are war crimes bad again? JoeyT Aug 2013 #23

Wow. Clever, impressive, powerful. Democracyinkind Aug 2013 #26

Yellow Cake... was yesterdays reason Ichingcarpenter Aug 2013 #35

Your sentence #1 is enough. Kick, Rec. n/t Smarmie Doofus Aug 2013 #28

No win....nothing positive comes out of it....nada Hulk Aug 2013 #29

Leave Syria to it's own devices. Is it important to maintain a presence to tap into the mid-east geckosfeet Aug 2013 #38

That is sickening to see here. another_liberal Aug 2013 #39

I don't believe it has been established that they were exposed to Sarin gas eilen Aug 2013 #189

I agree with the majority of your post however mimi85 Aug 2013 #43

Whatever the answers are . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #44

America - "The Worlds' Policeman". mwooldri Aug 2013 #45

Should America DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2013 #48

Syria is gonna attack us or its neighbors??? Ichingcarpenter Aug 2013 #51

The point flew right over your head. DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2013 #53

Uh...we were allies with a genocidal regime in World War 2. DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #61

It was the lesser of two evils unless you think we could have have/should have joined the AXIS./nt DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2013 #73

JC on a crutch! Stalin wasn't "the lesser of two evils". delrem Aug 2013 #138

Should we have joined the AXIS?nt DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2013 #185

The anti-Syrian al Qaeda terrorists are genocidal, no? Why support them? David__77 Aug 2013 #115

I'm not advocating attacking anybody unless attacking them can prove efficacious. DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2013 #120

The problem is that Hitler analogy applies much more to the sectarian insurgents than to Syria. David__77 Aug 2013 #140

None of the allies in World War 2 were in the war to stop a genocide. n/t DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #193

You forgot the sarcasm thingie...........nt Enthusiast Aug 2013 #110

Actually, we didn't wait eilen Aug 2013 #190

Didn't they declare war on us after we declared war on Japan? DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2013 #192

Jury results (of other thread) PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #52

The thread should not have been hidden. David__77 Aug 2013 #142

Warmaniacs are right wing (imo) PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #144

You have to fight right-wing manifestations head-on. David__77 Aug 2013 #145

My default stance is a pacifist anti-intervention one steve2470 Aug 2013 #55

If being a War Pig is now required... 99Forever Aug 2013 #56

There's money to be made in war. Those military contractor dollars can't just spend themselves... MotherPetrie Aug 2013 #58

Even though Colin Powell hasn't yet made his appearance with irrefutable evidence yet. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2013 #62

Condi Rice is probably gathering it for him right now. avaistheone1 Aug 2013 #74

And buying the usual lies malaise Aug 2013 #63

Some people think that a few bombs can make anything better. dawg Aug 2013 #64

After the response by the 'pro-spying', NSA supporters...nothing surprises me around DU anymore. Purveyor Aug 2013 #65

Be careful. It isn't the pro spying people calling for intervention in Syria. bluestate10 Aug 2013 #155

Same hair of fire, end of the world, NSA talk railsback Aug 2013 #80

Want war with Iran? Jackpine Radical Aug 2013 #82

K&R for the plain truth Warpy Aug 2013 #83

The President has a D next to his name. Works for me Taverner Aug 2013 #84

Yes in this thread here. Rex Aug 2013 #93

Syria are Iran's #1 ally. America is Israel's #1 ally. Israel desperately wants war with Iran. Fire Walk With Me Aug 2013 #102

Fuck that the last thing we need is another war! gopiscrap Aug 2013 #117

Big tent and all that. OnyxCollie Aug 2013 #123

K&R Ocelot Aug 2013 #125

No need for a war. dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #127

Fuck war. ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #133

The same people will be railing about extra-judicial executions when the USA has to use bluestate10 Aug 2013 #143

Who made us the boss of everyone? allinthegame Aug 2013 #148

It's time Liberals stop acting like war is just a policy decision. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #151

Mighty Authoritarian is all in the open all of a sudden. Octafish Aug 2013 #152

Wow! Did I miss something? N/T Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2013 #156

Some armchair warriors have a different agenda TomClash Aug 2013 #157

Reminder locks Aug 2013 #158

"we arrived there just in time" --Reagan on Grenada MisterP Aug 2013 #161

It's those NEW Democrats, I tells ya!!! DeSwiss Aug 2013 #160

K&R LostOne4Ever Aug 2013 #162

Absolutely right! We can't do a damn bit of good with our military. gtar100 Aug 2013 #165

+1 area51 Aug 2013 #167

+1 million!!! darkangel218 Aug 2013 #183

I'm sick of the US playing world policeman!!! B Calm Aug 2013 #181

Very few DU members support this and they are very noisy The Second Stone Aug 2013 #191