Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

General Discussion

In reply to the discussion: We Need Online Voting [View all]

eridani

(51,907 posts)
7. We need it only if you want to permanently destroy democracy
Mon Aug 26, 2013, 06:41 PM
Aug 2013

Every computer security expert in the world thinks this is a shitty idea.

WHY TOUCH SCREEN VOTING MACHINES ARE NOT LIKE ATMS

ATM software is open, but voting software is proprietary

Banks insist that all code in ATMs be fully disclosed to them and they won't trust their money or their depositors’ money with anything less. Voting software by comparison is considered proprietary. Companies that make both ATMs and voting machines proudly boast of their open source software for ATMs in their advertising. This situation could conceivably be changed by demanding that voting software also be fully disclosed, but there are other reasons why open source code is not by itself sufficient to make voting machines like ATMs. For example, it would be necessary to match the code on all voting machines to verify its identity with the true open source master code immediately prior to each election. But even then, any diskette or other similar device could introduce a virus or other malware that deletes itself. Furthermore, human beings can not observe the vote counting even in open source environments.

In addition, there is the problem that open source code itself is not necessarily "knowable". One can think of the law as being open source "code", free of copyright and at least in theory available to all in free libraries. However, like the extensive areas of code in computer programs that often have unknown functions or utility, even a lawyer who spends his life studying the law doesn't understand how every bit of the "open source" law works, nor can we the people realistically understand even a fraction of exactly how the open source code for voting machines would work. Even with open source code, then, we would be required to accept election results on trust or faith, which is the opposite of checks and balances.

Were the code of the voting machine vendors suddenly opened up or disclosed, it would take a long time to understand it, we may in fact never understand it, and those who do understand will only be a handful of experts with a lot of time on their hands, probably paid by the government or a vendor and not loyal solely to the public.

Individual ATM transactions can be tracked, but individual secret ballots cannot be tracked

Every transaction in an ATM is completely tracked with redundant account numbers traceable to the account holder, and your transaction is photographed or videotaped for security purposes. In contrast, a secret ballot cannot possibly be associated with such an identifying number and still remain secret. The very secrecy of the ballot creates a virtually untraceable system that is wide open to both fraud and the cover-up of material irregularities. It is not feasible to provide a receipt in elections to prove a transaction because of concerns about using it to sell votes, though this concern might be addressed by making verification available only to the voter in secure locations like the elections offices.

To make ATM banking perfectly analogous to the process of voting, you'd have to have every account holder at a bank make a non-traceable (secret ballot) cash deposit on the same day (election day) by dropping this anonymous deposit (ballot) into a large bin (ballot box). Bank officers would then calculate the total amount of money deposited in secret with no public oversight, but not start counting until after the bank (polls) close. The account holders (the voting public) would then come back at the closing of the business day (election night) with the media in tow demanding instantly reliable bank balances and overall account results within minutes or hours of the closing of the bank (polls). Bankers (election officials) would insist along with some in the media that the convenience of speedy results was far more important than accuracy in one's bank account (election results).

The insane rush to count the bank deposits (ballots) within minutes or hours on election night would them be used as a primary argument for making the banking deposits invisible and unverifiable by converting them to electrons, so that they could be processed all the more quickly and conveniently. Hopefully it is obvious that in such elections we would be putting intense pressure on a very fragile and inherently unauditable system. In contrast, public and auditable systems can work only at deliberate, and visible, speed.

ATM errors typically have no consequence for users because they are correctable, but ballot tabulation errors have very serious consequences that are usually not correctable

With banks, you have at least 60 days after receiving your statement, if not much longer, to contest and challenge the transactions involving your account. With voting, there is no possibility at all of correcting your vote after you leave the polling place. In fact, voters are considered legally incompetent to contest their ballots with extrinsic evidence under stringent anti-challenge provisions. Election contest laws are subject to extremely short statutes of limitation such as ten days. At any rate, you couldn't locate your own specific ballot for purposes of challenging its tabulation, and some elections officials have preemptively cited academic research purporting to suggest that significant numbers of voters "don't accurately remember their own votes" after having voted, in order to cast doubt on members of the public who may wish to question the tabulation of their own votes. Thus, nothing is allowed to impeach or contest the rushed count, not even the voters themselves were they somehow able to show their own ballots counted incorrectly.

Broken touch screen voting machines have disenfranchised many, many people who have had to get back to work or school before a functioning one could be made available to them during limited voting hours. A broken ATM just means that you have to go to another bank branch or supermarket, at any hour of the day or night. In the case of voting, touch screen machines are expensive bottlenecks where you may be forced to stay in a long line at only one polling place. You usually cannot go elsewhere to cast your vote, though in some states a provisional ballot may be allowable.

In summary, you vote untraceably (assuming that you aren’t turned away unable to access a functioning machine, or by long lines), you're not allowed to challenge or change even your own vote, you're not trusted to remember it, and then the elections officials refuse to disclose their data (ballots) or their analysis methods (counting software) on the grounds of trade secrecy, only releasing their conclusions (election results).

Such a system has absolutely none of the safeguards built into ATMs, which have quadruple redundancy. If you take out $100, you can count the five crisp $20s, check the receipt, cross-reference it with your bank statement listing individual transactions tagged with unique numbers, and if necessary, request the photo of you making the transaction.

ATMs have extensive real world testing that vote counting systems can never have

Principles of elementary systems analysis dictate that any complex system, whether mechanical or electronic, is highly unlikely to ever be free of bugs. Such systems can, however, eventually be made robust and reliable by banging them against reality hard and often. ATMs are part of a complex system that has had most of the bugs worked out of it by being constantly tested in the real world, billions of times an hour, 24/7, 365 days a year. Even so, they still malfunction occasionally, though if you run into one that isn’t working it’s usually a minor hassle to find another one.

In contrast, voting is something we do a couple of times a year, and letting machines with complex hardware and software do it for us means that elections must inevitably always be a beta test. This is why you rarely hear of ATMs that don’t work because of heat or cold or humidity, but commonly hear of voting machine breakdowns for those reasons and many others. If we only drove our cars for a couple of hours once a year, they'd suck pretty badly too. Beta test mode is absolutely unacceptable for something as important as voting.

Moreover, even if billions were spent on ATMs, there is no conceivable way that we would all be able to use an ATM in the same 14 hour time period, even under completely optimal and bug-free conditions. Forcing voters to use electronic voting machines means forcing them to stand in long lines instead of the five minute service guarantees we are used to in stores. The "promised land" of electronic voting promises only convenience for election officials, inherent invisibility of mistakes (which appeals to both vendors and election officials), and replicates the situation we now have with school systems whereby rich districts get great service and poor districts get poor service. The ultimate effect of electronic voting is therefore structural disenfranchisement of the poor by the forced bottlenecks of expensive machines.

We can safely entrust others with tracking ATM transactions, but we can only trust ourselves to supervise vote tabulation

The current situation is this. We now have no basis for confidence in election results because the data and the method of its analysis are never disclosed—only conclusions (election results) are disclosed. Voters are considered legally incompetent to change or challenge their votes, or even to recall what those votes were. Voters are widely considered by elections officials to be the cause of machine malfunctions themselves, resulting in delayed responses to fix them. Furthermore, the poll workers are not supposed to observe the voters and therefore can't easily verify whether a given problem is a machine problem or a voter problem. (Would any self-respecting software engineers refuse to include an undo function in their word-processing program, and then blame users for not being smart enough to avoid mistakes 100% of the time? Most “user” error is really system design error—real world testing should result in errors being hard to make and easy to recover from.)

We need to fight for democracy here in our time, meaning that the government must serve the public, which is the ultimate source of political power, and not the other way around. Public "servants" should not seek their own convenience and insulation from accountability for mistakes, but should instead be rewarded for falling on their swords and reporting problems voluntarily and immediately.

We the People must insist on vote counting methods that are transparent and public, that have robust checks and balances, and that keep fully in mind the very unique features of elections that make them not analogous to much of anything else. Thomas Jefferson anticipated every generation would need a revolution in democratic values to remember the inalienable rights of We the People and assert them against government officials who (quite naturally and even understandably) believe that their full time specialist status entitles them to special rights, because that is the route to something other than democracy, something other than We the People being in charge.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

We Need Online Voting [View all] TheTruthBeKnown Aug 2013 OP
Yeah, not at this point NV Whino Aug 2013 #1
Thing is, we trust the banks not to screw with the data after it gets there mindwalker_i Aug 2013 #2
So, financially well off people with computers and internet vote on line... brooklynite Aug 2013 #52
The poor, the elderly, and other disadvantaged groups Tanuki Aug 2013 #3
I couldn't disagree more. We need paper ballots, hand counted, in public, cameras rolling. Scuba Aug 2013 #4
^^^Thread Win^^^ Wilms Aug 2013 #5
Electronic voting can happen in a secure and trustworthy way. Xithras Aug 2013 #8
Why not paper, hand counted, in public, cameras rolling? What's wrong with that? Scuba Aug 2013 #9
230 million Xithras Aug 2013 #11
I don't buy it. The cameras would provide a record that could be checked for accuracy ... Scuba Aug 2013 #16
Only if it's poorly written. Xithras Aug 2013 #27
"Well written, well documented code can actually be read and verified ..." Yes, if you can find it. Scuba Aug 2013 #29
Nothing wrong with paper. Xithras Aug 2013 #60
You keep going back to code as if only programs matter. What if Cisco hides code in their routers? Scuba Aug 2013 #61
Well... Xithras Aug 2013 #67
So if time to vote is your concern, recommend you advocate for expanded ... Scuba Aug 2013 #69
Much better system, wild bird Aug 2013 #17
That's what we've got in the UK dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #64
You missed part of my OP TheTruthBeKnown Aug 2013 #10
Proof of who you voted for causes another problem: votes for sale. Scuba Aug 2013 #13
Similar systems have been proposed in the past. Xithras Aug 2013 #19
Anything else is tyranny Warpy Aug 2013 #12
Bingo! City Lights Aug 2013 #22
+ struggle4progress Aug 2013 #28
we don't have a secure voting system as it is marions ghost Aug 2013 #6
Where's the current online voting? TheTruthBeKnown Aug 2013 #15
Let's go back 5000 years & eliminate all progress TheTruthBeKnown Aug 2013 #20
you're asking for a paper trail, yet you want it online CreekDog Aug 2013 #24
Ridiculous marions ghost Aug 2013 #30
Paper ballots were used throughout much of this country . . . markpkessinger Aug 2013 #40
We need it only if you want to permanently destroy democracy eridani Aug 2013 #7
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ marions ghost Aug 2013 #33
Except that you're wrong on your very first point. Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #50
The company formerly known as Diebold bragged about its open source ATMs eridani Aug 2013 #56
I can think of three letters why this is a very bad idea. wild bird Aug 2013 #14
That's enough marions ghost Aug 2013 #31
Thank you for the welcome. wild bird Aug 2013 #39
I agree customerserviceguy Aug 2013 #18
Not a single voting machine of any kind in my State. What we prefer is voter access to voting. Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #38
You make my point customerserviceguy Aug 2013 #62
People only wait in line for hours in places with morons in charge. LeftyMom Aug 2013 #21
why do you want to change my voting? i don't wait in line and i have a paper trail CreekDog Aug 2013 #23
Debra Bowen did a good job fighting the elecronic voting machine demon. hunter Aug 2013 #47
She really did. I'm very happy with her and glad I voted for her. CreekDog Aug 2013 #55
wrong..."proof" of who you voted for is not proof that is for whom the vote was counted nt msongs Aug 2013 #25
Exactly . . . markpkessinger Aug 2013 #37
how many accounts did you use simultaneously on DU? CreekDog Aug 2013 #26
Ahh, you also have the feeling we've met this person before. Hekate Aug 2013 #45
He joined in 2004, had 24 posts until the past two weeks, in which he had 48 posts CreekDog Aug 2013 #68
What do other countries do? Does it work anywhere else? Freddie Aug 2013 #32
You're so right TheTruthBeKnown Aug 2013 #34
But you did not answer the question. The answer is no, other nations do not vote on line. Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #36
Now, the truth is known. pintobean Aug 2013 #49
In Oregon we vote by mail, we have a paper trail, we have Zero lines, no waiting and you get to Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #35
Please name the countries that are using online voting n/t markpkessinger Aug 2013 #41
No way! Mail-in paper ballots are the best way to go. It's easy; you can put them pnwmom Aug 2013 #42
I'd be much happier if there were tougher mandatory audits in OR and WA eridani Aug 2013 #57
What could possibly go wrong? Throd Aug 2013 #43
What could possibly go wrong inside that black box? Hekate Aug 2013 #44
Oh bloody hell damned no! We do not need online voting. hunter Aug 2013 #46
Hell no to Online Voting! William769 Aug 2013 #48
Nope, sorry. Just no. PDJane Aug 2013 #51
No Thanks..Credit Card's are Stolen and NSA is Hoovering our Info... KoKo Aug 2013 #53
Verifiable Paper Ballots...Hand Counted.... My Vote is too Sacred to Me. KoKo Aug 2013 #54
If you have your credit card stolen, that is a fixable problem eridani Aug 2013 #58
If you're going to do that, moondust Aug 2013 #59
Put the voting machines on the moon Shankapotomus Aug 2013 #63
Hackers- so NO.China hacked the CIA for 30 seconds under bush- so NO there is not secure online vote barbiegeek Aug 2013 #65
If they could make it more interesting. Like when married people........... nolabels Aug 2013 #66
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»We Need Online Voting»Reply #7