Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
181. to Karyn[formerlyNJ-but now]VT, re: "limits to free speech" and the Fire/crowded theater meme...
Mon Aug 26, 2013, 11:09 PM
Aug 2013

The always unspoken, and generally unknown and unacknowledged major premise to this "you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater" meme is this:

You are not "free" to yell "fire" in a crowded theater if in fact there is no fire in the crowded theater.

Another way of stating this so-called exception to freedom of speech: If there is no fire in a crowded theater and you sing out 'Fire, fire fire, raging all about; here come the firemen to put the fire out; great big ladder, long long hose, ...these are the firemen who'll put the fire out" (or something like that, from a 1949 Young People's Record Club ditty), then you can be held liable for all sorts of things, like causing a riot, being the proximate cause of people being trampled to death in their panic, etc.

However, what if the theater actually IS on fire? Generally, citizens and law enforcement folks do NOT have an affirmative duty to keep any particular member of We the People safe from harm. In at least one case, where the victim was in fear for her life, the police told her they could not protect her, and told her to "get a gun" and learn to use it. She did not follow this advice, and her stalking ex grievously wounded her (he was more successful in killing himself). But the "authorities" can punish the utterance of falsehoods in a dangerous situation. And do.

It should be pointed out that these "Police have no affirmative duty to protect a specific individual" cases are all about money; survivors and/or victims of this lack of protection are suing for damages in civil court

It then ceases to be a "freedom of speech" issue, but a "truth" issue, seems to me. We deal with defamation (slander & libel) similarly. If the speech or publication is harmful but true, plaintiff loses. And if the speech or publication is about a rich, famous or otherwise notable soul, the standard is only that a "reasonable reporter's attempt under hysterical deadline conditions" to ascertain the truth was made.

The problem is that our government and every person in it now seems to think it has the upper hand, greater power, in all situations, than the theoretically all-powerful We the People, who delegated only some some of their/our omnipotence to a Constitutional Republic.

I wonder how Ms. "We Broadly Endorse Freedom of Speech For the People, But Not For Mere Persons" would handle it if the reporter took out his/her pocket Constitution and read her the First Amendment. And asked her to repeat, for the press there assembled, her federal oath of office.

Then ask the question, "Do you find the words 'broadly endorse' in the First Amendment to the Constitution?"

And what do you mean by "do the right thing"? Does this include lying, under oath, to Congress, as our National Surveillance Agency and our current "Unitary Liar-In-Chief" (aka "President&quot have recently done? Or do you really mean, "Say what we want you to say, because we're the pre-eminent bad-ass on the planet"?

Here's a just-for-fun-factoid: Count the number of years this peace-loving country of ours has been at peace. In the 216 years since 1789, our peace-loving, democracy-exporting government has been at war of one sort or another for 201 of those 216 years: 15 years of "peace," 201 years of war. Or about 7% peaceable and 93% bellicose war monger.

This is not the record of a peaceful nation, though our "leaders" always try to sneak this lie past us from the propaganda platforms We the People have paid to build and opulently repair, in most of the text-books we pay to have our children read and "learn," pay teachers to "teach," and so on.

Our elected officials, in particular, seem to have invariably had a complete aversion to people speaking what was on their minds if it was critical of their own or of campaign contributors' actions. They suppose themselves to be in some kind of charmed world "where seldom is heard/a discouraging word." President #2, John Adams, was so offended by unkind comments on his rotundity, judgement, bellicosity in the press of the day that he got passed, and signed, the Sedition Act, under which several editors were thrown into prison (one died there, but supposedly of natural causes).

The Supremes of that time tried to sustain the patent, "facial" unconstitutionality of that law under the specious logic (or lie) that the framers had intended to distinguish "prior restraint" of speech vs. punishment after the "free utterance" of speech.

Prior restraint of speech, following English Common law, would be unconstitutional, they said, but punishment after the fact would not be. My view, and that of others, is this: While the Supremes' decision might be used as fertilizer to enrich their fields, as the manure of any animal generally does, it certainly did Adams and the judiciary little good, as President #3, Jefferson, pardoned all of the publishers and set them free. And the decision is generally excoriated by those then living and their posterity.

It should be added (so I will) that Adams, in seeking to silence critics of the then-current war, was worried that a newborn nation would not be strong enough to both fight the enemy abroad and enlist the assent of We the People at home, particularly not strong enough to do all that and repay the national debt, owed to those rich folks of Adams' money/power class.

As we all know, there is a great deal of money to be made by going to war (how do you repair/recycle an eight-inch naval shell that blows up when it hits a target?), but only if the governments which invariably have to borrow it actually pay their "debts" to the profiteers. With uncoöperating We the People's money. Repaying this "national debt" was the first or nearly the first, legislative matter taken up by the 1st Congress, under the rubric "Money talks; soldiers walk (into bankruptcy)." Not much has changed in two centuries.

Final note: Unless we are willing to insist on recovering the enumerated and un-enumerated rights and powers We the People set out in the Bill of Rights, stripped away by our"elected" (so-called) "representatives" (so-called) on the grounds that "9/11 changed everything," they will be lost forever.

If you're a Verizon customer, for example (as am I), what do you do if you want to stay in touch with family members, want to express any opinion via email, tweets, snail-mail, over cellular or "conventional" phone lines that you know is currently not popular with the ruling class? Remember Ari Fleischer telling Bill Maher that Maher had "better be careful what you say." (The current government propaganda had found that "coward" was particularly effective in raising vengeful bile amongst the citizens (that is, it "played well in focus groups&quot , so the government called the so-called "hijackers"--never proven, of course--"cowards" and labeled their supposed "acts" as "cowardly." Maher took exception, saying essentially that "whatever adjective you wish to tag them with, "cowardly" is probably not le mot juste, or the apposite word. This Fleischer caution, coming from an Israeli citizen (Fleischer) to a Jewish atheist, was noted as a quite remarkable warning or threat at the time. And Maher subsequently did lose his comedy show for a time, as I recall.

I well recall that my signature on a petition in 1968 (that freedom to assemble and petition the gov't for redress of grievances thing) cost me six months' loss of GI education benefits--this was a Vietnam Veterans Against the War petition asking for the withdrawal of US troops from Vietnam. The current government claimed that it was nearly impossible to withdraw from S. Vietnam. A Vermont Republican senator, George Aiken, disagreed, saying that "all we have to do is declare victory and leave." As I recall, a Texas rep. said much the same thing about Iraq: When we invaded Iraq, we just marched in. We can just march out the way we came in.

The main problem the government had with the VVAW was, I think, that it was really difficult to find a way to calumniate, slander, neutralize the VVAW message, as these citizens had not burned their draft cards, fled to Canada, but had actually served in the war, keeping America safe for--as that crazy Marine general, Smedly Butler, put it--United Fruit, Bank of America, and other plutocrats, fascisti, and Wall Street banksters, and lived to tell about the waste, fraud, abuse, lies, etc.

And none of these VVAW testimonials endorsed the product the White House/legislative/military/industrial/espionage complex was trying to sell at the time. (Read Butler's War Is A Racket for further elucidation.)

It turns out that lies (like the "Gulf of Tonkin 'Incident',&quot , bald-faced lies and body counts actually do work, at least for a time. The lies about the Kennedy assassinations have survived to this day (but MLK Jr.'s assassination was solved in the case of King Survivors vs. Lloyd Jowers, op cit.). We should all hope, and help, to see the lies about 9/11 uncovered in our lifetimes.

this is the longest single post in DU HISTORY. rsmith6621 Jul 2013 #1
K&R for the DU record length post Gman Jul 2013 #6
I'd have yo do some searching, but I believe Prosense has that record Dragonfli Jul 2013 #14
Hey now bobduca Jul 2013 #19
Well, there's no easy way to really know Gman Jul 2013 #38
No one beats the link meister. L0oniX Jul 2013 #146
and of so little worth... MjolnirTime Jul 2013 #51
It depends on whether or not you are interested in facts. I read all of it and was shocked at sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #171
Too long to read in entirety... HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #2
It's really worth reading. n/t ohheckyeah Jul 2013 #7
My first impression - that the male reporter cut the female spokesperson off before she could karynnj Jul 2013 #62
It's worth it to read the disgraceful equivocations by a govt. spokesperson in their HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #63
i'm still trying to figure out what propagranda she's talking about. allin99 Jul 2013 #81
Her boss, Secretary of State Kerry, is famous (infamous?) for HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #83
Kerry NEVER said that - it was a media smear karynnj Jul 2013 #109
I beg your pardon.My wife and I watched Kerry on TV in Colorado Springs be asked the question HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #112
That is because the news person stated the question as karynnj Jul 2013 #115
The idea is that anything coming out of Snowden's mouth, and out of Russia Catherina Jul 2013 #127
How do you equivocate or anything if you can't get a word in edgewise? karynnj Jul 2013 #110
Here's how: HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #111
I disagree karynnj Jul 2013 #120
to Karyn[formerlyNJ-but now]VT, re: "limits to free speech" and the Fire/crowded theater meme... RememberTheNinth Aug 2013 #181
Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2014 #183
Read it whenevr you have timebut don't have any liguids near your keyboard when you do Catherina Jul 2013 #74
I saved it nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #78
So true....it's fascinating. KoKo Jul 2013 #97
... questionseverything Jul 2013 #3
This OP is basically a giant copy-paste with some bold font here and there? Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #4
Also, from the transcript these questioners...sound like complete a-holes Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #5
How so? blackspade Jul 2013 #16
Actually at least Matt is doing an awful job if the goal was to get the State Department karynnj Jul 2013 #66
Yes! How DARE they seek answers to legitimate questions! tkmorris Jul 2013 #18
Well, there chance of getting answers would rise if they let her answer karynnj Jul 2013 #70
No, they don't. They are members of the press, and if Snowden doesn't have the right to free JDPriestly Jul 2013 #22
Four words: "Tip of the iceberg" - nt HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #65
Yes. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #142
You mean...for doing their jobs? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #59
No - for not really allowing her to answer the questions karynnj Jul 2013 #72
The fact that I cover pressers regularly nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #76
As I said, I have no problem with the questions karynnj Jul 2013 #84
Mark Twain would most certainly disagree whatchamacallit Jul 2013 #88
NEEDS MORE BLUE LINKS STAT bobduca Jul 2013 #20
All the interruptions make that painful to read bhikkhu Jul 2013 #8
Yeah, the questioning got REALLY stupid railsback Jul 2013 #13
Not stupid at all in my view. I thought it was for once a member of the press asking the right JDPriestly Jul 2013 #25
Wouldn't it then have been better to allow the answers as well? nt karynnj Jul 2013 #87
It's painfully clear she had no answers whatchamacallit Jul 2013 #89
Actually, had he let her answer the questions, that MIGHT be true karynnj Jul 2013 #91
I don't buy it whatchamacallit Jul 2013 #92
I seriously doubt they will fire her karynnj Jul 2013 #107
The answers were not really answers. They were evasive and irrelevant. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #140
The Obama administration doesn't want Snowden to have the right to free speech. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #24
We know they are targeted and that Senators and Congresscritters have been KoKo Jul 2013 #98
+1000 JDPriestly Jul 2013 #139
I couldn't read it either. It was like Chris Matthews asking the questions Whisp Jul 2013 #37
Agreed, questioner has an agenda treestar Jul 2013 #64
Came to the same basic conclusion after reading all that nonsense. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #90
Well, I read the whole thing. noamnety Jul 2013 #9
Definitely! KoKo Jul 2013 #99
Very... Special... idwiyo Jul 2013 #151
Where were these tenacious reporters when Bush** was magellan Jul 2013 #10
Took a long time, but it looks like what Snowden said and revealed woke them up to the simple JDPriestly Jul 2013 #26
I'm a cynic magellan Jul 2013 #29
What *is* with the press? It's embarrassing. (and beyond frustrating). allin99 Jul 2013 #31
We started a World Forum under Media, and we are going to try to catch some foreign views of JDPriestly Jul 2013 #48
Yes. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #50
I have no problem with relentless questioning - but it is important to allow answers to the karynnj Jul 2013 #75
i would have like to hear her been able to answer a couple of those... allin99 Jul 2013 #82
He cut her off because she was avoiding answering his questions by speaking in broad generalities JDPriestly Jul 2013 #141
He started cutting her off with the first question karynnj Jul 2013 #144
There is no honest answer to his questions other than, yes, we are depriving Edward Snowden JDPriestly Jul 2013 #145
I disagree karynnj Jul 2013 #147
They already named a reporter as a co-conspirtor in espionage. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #148
The Rosen story was a while ago and not related karynnj Jul 2013 #149
The USA should really protect whistleblowers. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #150
Yes. Loud and clear too. Catherina Jul 2013 #44
that was bizarre. and what is this talking point supposed to mean.. allin99 Jul 2013 #55
This message was self-deleted by its author magellan Jul 2013 #10
so glad the press isn't accepting the spin at face value nashville_brook Jul 2013 #12
press ? kardonb Jul 2013 #21
You still live in the Cold War Era? KoKo Jul 2013 #100
Thanks for posting blackspade Jul 2013 #15
wow, that reporter is a bulldog! grasswire Jul 2013 #17
Agreed. Matthew Lee, AP n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #54
is he around much? also, when will the u.s. be asked about... allin99 Jul 2013 #56
They covered Morales plane when they came back from the 4th of July long weekend Catherina Jul 2013 #68
but that was earlier before.. allin99 Jul 2013 #80
wow. thanks for posting that. It's also awesome on video... allin99 Jul 2013 #23
Thanks. I had a heck of a time watching your link last night Catherina Jul 2013 #43
Thanks! Some DU'ers might find the interview VIDEO easier than the read KoKo Jul 2013 #101
THAT is how a journalist works. NuclearDem Jul 2013 #27
Will we ever see them again? I almost wonder... allin99 Jul 2013 #30
Ms. Psaki needs to repeat CYA101 and read "Weasal Words and Their Uses" again. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #28
Kicked and Recommended! nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #32
Thank you, because it's unbelievable in any ordinary sense. delrem Jul 2013 #33
k&r for exposure. n/t Laelth Jul 2013 #34
I read it and thanks for posting it. I say screw Kerry and the horse he rode in on. byeya Jul 2013 #35
Nice snark there Fumesucker Jul 2013 #116
Priceless. bemildred Jul 2013 #36
I'm glad you guys thought so too. Catherina Jul 2013 #42
That is the problem with up-is-down propaganda. bemildred Jul 2013 #47
It's totally cringeworthy. You almost want to help them because it's so bad n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #49
Weasel words. 99Forever Jul 2013 #39
Kind of looks like Bush 43 and his handlers deflecting questions warrant46 Jul 2013 #40
It's what they specialize in. 99Forever Jul 2013 #41
The sheep--- being made in an education system near you warrant46 Jul 2013 #114
It takes this full transcript to show IMPRESSIVE this reporter was Tom Rinaldo Jul 2013 #45
That's precisely why I didn't snip it. I tried but it took away the full effect Catherina Jul 2013 #53
My favorite part: ProSense Jul 2013 #46
K&R this is unreal. nt limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #52
Check out the video, it's in post #43 allin99 Jul 2013 #57
The reactions here are telling nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #58
"Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech. Ichingcarpenter Jul 2013 #60
How soon we forget. The ironies are endless n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #69
I posted it earlier today Ichingcarpenter Jul 2013 #85
Your Post at the Link is a MUST SEE..... KoKo Jul 2013 #103
Just went and rec'd Catherina Jul 2013 #130
I'll bet the U.S. Government did threaten Amnesty Intl and HRW with HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #61
The Brits did when echelon was exposed nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #67
It's pretty clear since HRW normally treats the US with deference and kid gloves Catherina Jul 2013 #73
They're not prepared for any of this type of questioning, are they? Stunning. K&R and bookmarked. Jefferson23 Jul 2013 #71
Our governments entire reaction to the Snowden Affair has been embarrassing Catherina Jul 2013 #77
embarrassing but perversely comforting to see the incompetence of the anti-Snowden PR carolinayellowdog Jul 2013 #94
+1 n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #129
K & R !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #79
This is DEMOCRACY IN ACTION temmer Jul 2013 #86
Propaganda? That's the WH position? propaganda platform? that's insane xiamiam Jul 2013 #93
+1 KoKo Jul 2013 #105
That is unfathomably disturbing. woo me with science Jul 2013 #95
Does anyone know what she meant by "propoganda", what she was referring to? allin99 Jul 2013 #96
Here is Edward Snowden's statement from Moscow. Eric J in MN Jul 2013 #153
so she was referring to him speaking out against the u.s... allin99 Jul 2013 #154
Yes, usually "propaganda" refers to a government promoting itself. NT Eric J in MN Jul 2013 #155
K&R MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #102
That is a whole lot of dissembling and stonewalling. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #104
Mr. Psaki made some very good points. arely staircase Jul 2013 #106
That was her rational for why he should not have free speech. Warren Stupidity Jul 2013 #118
May Mr. Snowden get to exercise his 6th Amendment rights very soon. nt arely staircase Jul 2013 #119
Yeah I get that you desperately want him punished. Warren Stupidity Jul 2013 #121
Justice for Snowden! arely staircase Jul 2013 #122
The USA does not have an extradition treaty with Russia. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2013 #123
All that to say that 'we believe in free speech except when we don't'. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #108
that "broadly" cracked me up. allin99 Jul 2013 #161
So the USA is okay with free speech, up until the point you piss them off Rex Jul 2013 #113
OWS is a great example of that. Another favorite are the free speech zones Catherina Jul 2013 #128
Ari Fleischer is turning green with envy n/t Fumesucker Jul 2013 #117
K & R Liberal_Dog Jul 2013 #124
Holy Fuck... Hydra Jul 2013 #125
That's it in a nutshell n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #126
Obama has already said as much with killing Americans Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #132
I totally agree since the Presidental power to assassinate is beyond the law Hydra Jul 2013 #135
Which is why so many of us freaked over Obama's position on this... Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #138
Wow! Excellent reporting, great post, and horrifying content. nt Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #131
Arrogance Savannahmann Jul 2013 #133
Just thinking about your question... Catherina Jul 2013 #134
And the fact that they DON'T know what he has Hydra Jul 2013 #136
I love having you on DU...your posts give me the snooper2 Jul 2013 #157
You need to catch up instead of ROFLing like a blue link wonder Catherina Jul 2013 #163
LOL, right, he was a low level IT twerp who got his hands on some documents snooper2 Jul 2013 #164
Of course you do. n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #165
course I do what? snooper2 Jul 2013 #167
du rec. xchrom Jul 2013 #137
Yikes. n/t DirkGently Jul 2013 #143
k+r ..nt TeeYiYi Jul 2013 #152
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #156
Too cool! I can't believe it's been tweeted 234 times and liked like that on FB. Thank you n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #158
This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Jul 2013 #159
Cool! Make some more room under the bus lol. I'm glad people are taking this seriously Catherina Jul 2013 #162
And tweeted it too lol Catherina Jul 2013 #160
Good, maybe Greenwald will read this- snooper2 Jul 2013 #168
Whoa. MelungeonWoman Jul 2013 #166
Check out the video... allin99 Jul 2013 #169
Link to VIDEO: http://video.state.gov/en/video/2542356307001 KoKo Jul 2013 #172
agree. allin99 Jul 2013 #173
Short answer is: Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #170
and then it's propaganda that must be silenced. lol allin99 Jul 2013 #175
Propaganda vs. propaganda. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #176
Keep this kicked. woo me with science Jul 2013 #174
One of the Most Important Posts I've Seen on DU in Years...AP Reporter Strikes Back! KoKo Jul 2013 #177
Thank you Koko! I didn't expect it to make this much of an impression Catherina Jul 2013 #178
Kick woo me with science Jul 2013 #179
kick woo me with science Jul 2013 #180
Message deleted by DU the Administrators sandieg Dec 2013 #182
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»State Department Brief To...»Reply #181