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Skinner

(63,645 posts)
17. What's legally relevant is my reasonable expectation.
Wed Aug 28, 2013, 12:26 PM
Aug 2013

I was providing an explanation for why I have a reasonable expectation that the phone company will not share my metadata. I believe they will share my name and address and my phone number, but I do not believe they are going to share a list of whom I call.

You said:

Even if they sometimes say "no". The fact that they can ever say "yes" means it isn't private.

But that does not mean the government can just take it. On at least two occasions, the federal government has contacted me -- the administrator of this website -- and asked me to hand over the IP addresses and email addresses of specific users of this website. In each of those cases, I could have said "yes" and just handed it over. I would have been within my rights to do so. but the fact that I can ever say "yes" -- to the government or to another third party that wants to buy it from me -- does not mean that I am REQUIRED to give this information to the government.

In both cases, I said "no". And guess what the government did next? They went to a court of law and got a subpoena and then came back to me with the subpoena. Once they legally compelled me to do it then I had to hand it over.

Now, I know what you're going to say: You're going to say that the FISA court gave the government the green light to collect everyone's phone call metadata -- just like a court gave the government a subpoena for my members' private information. But that is different from saying that "the fact that the phone company can ever say 'yes' means it isn't private." The phone company can say yes, but that does not mean the government is automatically free to take it.

The reason the government can take it is because the FISA court said so. My contention is that the FISA court was wrong to do so. (And I also think the FISA court itself is poorly conceived, but that's not the point of this post.) Sure, maybe the FISA court used the trash precedent to authorize mass collection of metadata from everyone, but I am not convinced that it is a particularly relevant precedent. There is certainly an argument to be made on phone metadata before SCOTUS. My best guess is that SCOTUS would split 5-4, and I honestly don't know which way Kennedy would go.

Having said all that, I agree that this problem could be solved by Congress, if there was the political will to do so.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

even if we know what we do in public is "public", we don't want it closely tracked. unblock Aug 2013 #1
Joe Biden AGREES!!! bvar22 Aug 2013 #2
But did not Joe Biden... Manifestor_of_Light Aug 2013 #19
Yeah! Thats the same guy, bvar22 Aug 2013 #21
So can cameras looking at your car travel to those places...The article does have a point... uponit7771 Aug 2013 #3
Not really a meaningful standard. jeff47 Aug 2013 #4
The comparison of phone metadata with "digging through your trash" is absurd. Skinner Aug 2013 #6
The example is not about scale. It's about expectations. jeff47 Aug 2013 #8
Yes, a phone company might share my data in exchange for cash. Skinner Aug 2013 #10
What they get in return isn't legally relevant. jeff47 Aug 2013 #15
What's legally relevant is my reasonable expectation. Skinner Aug 2013 #17
Yes, it does mean that. jeff47 Aug 2013 #22
OK. It seems to me that if we are arguing what the law currently permits... Skinner Aug 2013 #23
I follow you there...it is about expections Supersedeas Aug 2013 #11
You're trying to merge metadata and content. jeff47 Aug 2013 #14
K&R! TeamPooka Aug 2013 #5
K & R BuelahWitch Aug 2013 #7
K&R n/t myrna minx Aug 2013 #9
So I've called planned parenthood treestar Aug 2013 #12
The Abyss. Octafish Aug 2013 #13
K&R Segami Aug 2013 #16
Here is how the FBI COULD be spying on you. randome Aug 2013 #18
No they can't. JoeyT Aug 2013 #20
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Here’s How Phone Metadata...»Reply #17