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Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
77. no doubt you could have found many Iraqis living in America who wanted Saddam gone so much that they
Thu Aug 29, 2013, 01:45 AM
Aug 2013

even supported an invasion to accomplish it. In fact almost all Iraqi-Americans would have preferred to see Saddam gone and did rejoice at his downfall. But that did not change the dynamics of Iraq and that made the invasion into a disaster - even if it was initially welcomed by many. Almost all Vietnamese living in America at the time of the Vietnam War strongly supported the American presence in Vietnam - But that was not representative of Vietnam as a whole nor did it change the essential dynamics of the war.

This article below was written more than a year ago when at the time no one was suggesting direct U.S. military involvement - but the points are still the same:

Liberals arguing that the U.S. should give weapons to Syrian rebels underestimate Assad's power

I strongly recommend reading this article in salon.com by Gary Kamiya:

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/13/dont_arm_syrias_rebels/singleton/



snips:

This is not a knee-jerk left-wing response. It has nothing to do with Iraq. Nor does it have anything to do with the proxy war between the U.S. and its allies and Iran and its allies. It is not driven by pacifism or opposition to all war. All U.S. wars are not axiomatically foolish, evil or driven by brutal self-interest (although most of them since World War II have been). The airstrikes on Kosovo and the Libya campaign were justified (although the jury is still out on the latter intervention). If arming the Syrian opposition would result in fewer deaths and a faster transition to a peaceful, open, democratic society, we should arm them.

That analysis has been provided by a number of in-depth reports, most notably a new study by the International Crisis Group, as well as the excellent on-the-ground reporting of Nir Rosen for Al-Jazeera. The bottom line is simple. The war has become a zero-sum game for Assad. If he loses, he dies. But the only way he can lose is if he is abandoned by his crucial external patron, Russia, which is extremely unlikely to happen absent some slaughter so egregious that Moscow feels it has to cut ties with him. Assad has sufficient domestic support to hold on for a long time, and a huge army that is not likely to defect en masse. Under these circumstances, giving arms to the rebels, however much it may make conscience-stricken Western observers feel better, will simply make the civil war much bloodier and its outcome even more chaotic and dangerous.

The key point concerns Assad’s domestic support. Contrary to the widely held belief that most Syrians support the opposition and are opposed to the Assad regime, Syrians are in fact deeply divided. The country’s minorities – the ruling Alawites, Christians and Druze – tend to support the regime, if only because they fear what will follow its downfall. (The grocery on my corner in San Francisco is owned by a Christian Syrian from a village outside Damascus. When I asked him what he thought about what was going on in his country, he said, “It’s not like what you see on TV. Assad is a nice guy. He’s trying to do the right thing.”) As Rosen makes clear, Syria’s ruling Alawite minority is the key to Assad’s survival: Absent an outside invasion, the regime will not fall unless the Alawites turn on it. But the Alawites fear reprisals if the Sunni-dominated opposition, some of whose members have threatened to “exterminate the Alawites,” defeats the Assad regime. The fear of a sectarian war, exacerbated by the murky and incoherent nature of the opposition, means that the minorities are unlikely to join the opposition in large numbers.

...

Our national instinct is to come riding to the rescue. It goes against our character to simply sit on our hands. Our sincere, naive and self-centered belief that America can fix everything, and our equally sincere, naive and self-centered belief that moral outrage justifies intervention, is a powerful tide, pulling us toward getting directly involved in Syria’s civil war.

But in the real world, we cannot always come riding to the rescue. Sometimes, we have no choice but to watch tragedy unfold, because anything we do will create an even bigger tragedy.


http://www.salon.com/2012/04/13/dont_arm_syrias_rebels/singleton/

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

This message was self-deleted by its author G_j Aug 2013 #1
dig deeper. cali Aug 2013 #2
that was uncalled for. Whisp Aug 2013 #12
She must be the queen of Snark. lumpy Aug 2013 #14
I think cali is simply stating the OP is ill informed at best. avaistheone1 Aug 2013 #30
Bam HangOnKids Aug 2013 #42
Your 6 hidden posts suggest other wise. HangOnKids Aug 2013 #41
Just because someone burns your books doesn't make one wrong. n/t jtuck004 Aug 2013 #48
What ever HangOnKids Aug 2013 #49
^^this post^^ underscores the point the other person was making jtuck004 Aug 2013 #70
Word salad HangOnKids Aug 2013 #73
Food for your strawman. n/t jtuck004 Aug 2013 #75
Sorry not playing HangOnKids Aug 2013 #76
Don't bet on it. LOL. jtuck004 Aug 2013 #80
Speaking of fortes.... Bobbie Jo Aug 2013 #85
Apparently the administration is consulting with you... Hekate Aug 2013 #71
i know some syrians but they are of armenian/christian background JI7 Aug 2013 #3
Thank you for posting this Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #4
damn, so now you posted two OPs cheerleading this potential invasion quinnox Aug 2013 #5
anecdotal is not anecdata elehhhhna Aug 2013 #28
Big Agenda Rolling Around HangOnKids Aug 2013 #45
missed the other thread G_j Aug 2013 #38
Yea. I'm not trying to be mean to the OP or anything, but war is serious shit, and it makes me quinnox Aug 2013 #44
I hear you G_j Aug 2013 #78
What good has our intervention achieved recently? CJCRANE Aug 2013 #6
The limited air support in Libya worked out well bhikkhu Aug 2013 #13
Libya also didn't have a seven-way civil war going on Scootaloo Aug 2013 #27
I wouldn't argue with that bhikkhu Aug 2013 #52
If we were going to intervene, it should hav been then. Scootaloo Aug 2013 #58
I started hearing about Syria around then (2 years or so). IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #60
Thanks. elleng Aug 2013 #7
The banality of evil. Vinnie From Indy Aug 2013 #8
Right? I don't hear any Syrians in SYRIA saying "bomb my country" elehhhhna Aug 2013 #31
I don't think that you are an evil person or a war monger. War and peace is a deeply personal bluestate10 Aug 2013 #9
That's some characterization of your thread, considering you did not even respond to my Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #10
My apologies, but by the time your very thoughtful post was made, IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #21
Cubans in Florida want us to oust Castro. REP Aug 2013 #11
she has already stated she expects others to spill their red blood to oust Assad magical thyme Aug 2013 #20
Yeah! :) IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author HangOnKids Aug 2013 #47
There are tyrants worldwide - why this country? TBF Aug 2013 #15
I think the chemical weapons this week did it for me. IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #65
I'm torn - I think the chemical weapons thing happened but I'm not sure who is behind it TBF Aug 2013 #86
Thanks for a thoughtful post. riqster Aug 2013 #16
I hope your friends are not killed by the missles Marrah_G Aug 2013 #17
Ida...what's happened to you? KoKo Aug 2013 #18
KoKo, it is still me. IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #23
Okay...thanks...I though it was you. And thanks for your reply... KoKo Aug 2013 #26
I think you want a TV show, or a movie ..... oldhippie Aug 2013 #35
Your first paragraph would be the ideal solution (minus the insults, of course). IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #50
Our missles will kill alot of innocent Syrians Marrah_G Aug 2013 #91
They say "who could be worse?" Trust me, there are worse people to have in charge 7962 Aug 2013 #46
I oppose intervention, but any suggestion that there are rash decisions being made is just foolish alcibiades_mystery Aug 2013 #19
I agree with you davidpdx Aug 2013 #66
You have been making some very good posts on this subject. IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #88
I took some time and read through your post. bvar22 Aug 2013 #24
Mahalo IdaBriggs~ You state your case well. Cha Aug 2013 #25
P.S. what would your Syrian friends say to those who Cha Aug 2013 #29
I believe the extensive evidence by pretty much everybody IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #53
Just as I thought.. Thank you for replying, Ida. Cha Aug 2013 #54
So, my friends from Syria support the government and oppose the terrorists? So what? David__77 Aug 2013 #32
Different opinions? On a message board? And they (gasp) SHARE THEM? IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #39
No, I praise that there are different opinions expressed. David__77 Aug 2013 #40
I understand. For me, it is the eternal truth IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #43
Detroit wants demoracy, but the current government is letting them sink HangOnKids Aug 2013 #51
Not really sure what you are trying to say; my opinion IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #55
This message was self-deleted by its author HangOnKids Aug 2013 #57
An incredibly heartfelt Summer Hathaway Aug 2013 #33
let's be clear-- I'd be very happy to see Assad deposed.... mike_c Aug 2013 #34
I understand this position, but I actually do support a "global IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #62
Definitely an interesting perspective. Just Saying Aug 2013 #36
I disagree with your stance. LWolf Aug 2013 #37
The nice thing about a discussion board... IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #61
Finally somebody remade the "I have a black friend" argument for foreign policy. LeftyMom Aug 2013 #56
ftw frylock Aug 2013 #59
How brave you are KT2000 Aug 2013 #63
My ex-Israeli military friend always says, IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #64
The only thing I have learned from you here is that you want OTHER people Vinnie From Indy Aug 2013 #72
everyone except the Palestinians Marrah_G Aug 2013 #92
It is a quote from someone I respect. And he has *definite* IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #93
. Marrah_G Aug 2013 #95
The most interesting part that I caught from your post davidpdx Aug 2013 #67
Yeah, I asked a homeless guy I know NoOneMan Aug 2013 #68
That was thoughtful, and thank you for your courage in sharing it here and now Hekate Aug 2013 #69
Post removed Post removed Aug 2013 #74
no doubt you could have found many Iraqis living in America who wanted Saddam gone so much that they Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #77
Assad is scum. That is not up for debate, it's a fact. Warpy Aug 2013 #79
Sigh. NealK Aug 2013 #81
nothing in there about our own constitution; the claim that this is about OUR national security bigtree Aug 2013 #82
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Glassunion Aug 2013 #83
I get what you are saying. The war against the Syrian people IdaBriggs Aug 2013 #84
Then allow me to ask some questions. Savannahmann Aug 2013 #87
I have no answers. I really wish I did. But, it is a very difficult situation. Glassunion Aug 2013 #90
Dropping bombs ( and our bombs are the big ass kind) on Damascus will not do that Marrah_G Aug 2013 #94
You make very good points. Jamastiene Aug 2013 #89
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