General Discussion

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)

76. There's nothing "neo" about my views, and nothing liberal about yours.

Sat Aug 31, 2013, 10:55 AM

Aug 2013

Making it a legal requirement to join a union in order to hold any job is as illiberal and undemocratic a proposal as one could hope not to hear on a nominally liberal and democratic discussion board.

If you genuinely think that "democracy" means that everyone should have to pay what is effectively a tax which will be spent on promoting the a particular set of political ideas, and quite possibly a specific political party, then it's you, and not I, who needs education in what the term means.

And there's certainly nothing liberal about the state coercing people to fund the promotion of your ideology on pain of unemployment.

No employer should be allowed to refuse to employ union members.
Employers should probably be allowed to refuse to employ non-union members.
Employers should *not* be forced to refuse to employ non-union members.

If you want to see what legally-mandated trade unions turn out like, go look at some of the communist countries that have had them.

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Should all jobs be union jobs? [View all] Taverner Aug 2013 OP

Yes. n/t Lugnut Aug 2013 #1

Yes. DemocraticWing Aug 2013 #2

I'd call that a start. nt PETRUS Aug 2013 #3

Yes, that would be a start. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #19

I agree with you two........ socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #54

After that we transition to socialism ... TBF Aug 2013 #122

My plan Taverner Aug 2013 #167

I'm not advocating anything so radical. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #182

Well hell, if my plan actually was enacted, we'd be talking several generations Taverner Aug 2013 #183

How is a new company started in your model? Adrahil Sep 2013 #226

Sub-syndicate, and then if it takes off, split off... Taverner Sep 2013 #232

Could you elaborate? Adrahil Sep 2013 #234

Syndicate A makes widgets Taverner Sep 2013 #236

What if I don't work for Syndicate A? Adrahil Sep 2013 #237

Well, considering the Syndicates are unionized and connected.... Taverner Sep 2013 #238

Hmmmm.... I'd don't like... Adrahil Sep 2013 #239

Start your own syndicate then - however, you'll have to work with others Taverner Sep 2013 #240

Way to finish my thought T... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #204

i prefer the german model where corporate governance occurs in a more democratic way La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2013 #4

Premise is every job is Union, that means go to Alabama, the Union is there too.... Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #49

yeah but jobs can ship overseas too. i think unions are great but they don't solve La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2013 #201

the unions can make it very difficult to ship jobs elsewhere antigop Aug 2013 #82

Or they can take over and occupy a closed shop......... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #111

that would be perfect! nt antigop Aug 2013 #112

I think it is a great idea. hrmjustin Aug 2013 #5

I'm my only employee. Can I unionize myself? Travis_0004 Aug 2013 #6

You'll go blind ! King_Klonopin Aug 2013 #14

Depending n the industry nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #144

+1000 Fridays Child Aug 2013 #7

yes arely staircase Aug 2013 #8

What about co-ops? ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #9

That's the most ideal situation Taverner Aug 2013 #10

I think so too. ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #32

Yes. delete_bush Aug 2013 #11

Yes newfie11 Aug 2013 #12

Then unions need to start letting everyone join no matter their occupation Recursion Aug 2013 #13

Unions aren't letting people "join" ??? WTF King_Klonopin Aug 2013 #21

Bwah! Try getting into, say, IBEW if you don't know somebody Recursion Aug 2013 #23

Now I'M confused. King_Klonopin Aug 2013 #27

Yeah I like the AFSCME model better Recursion Aug 2013 #28

But what do you DO for a living again? Seriously here is a link to IWEB, apprenticeship Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #50

I'm a sysadmin Recursion Aug 2013 #55

Then "everyone" better be ready to go on strike until the employer signs a contract with the Union. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #85

When AFL stops crossing carpenters' pickets? Recursion Aug 2013 #113

You think you just join and the money starts rolling in? There has to be a contract. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #123

No, I think IBEW and ILU have an interest in keeping the books closed Recursion Aug 2013 #134

So it's their fault there's not enough work at any given time? Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #138

I certainly don't expect the people shut out to not be resentful Recursion Aug 2013 #139

Why resent the Unions? They don't set the production schedules. Management does. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #142

What part of this is difficult to understand? Recursion Aug 2013 #146

Is your brother being skipped over in seniority? Junior men are being put to work before him? Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #147

OFFS. He's *in the union now* so it's great for him Recursion Aug 2013 #150

Yeah, I got that he's in it. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #158

That's not really what he's saying. JoeyT Aug 2013 #176

"Have a fit" That is unfair and unwarranted. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #180

Have to go against the flow here and say No. Downwinder Aug 2013 #15

i would say the option should be there, but its up to the individual if they want to join loli phabay Aug 2013 #20

That defeats and undermines the whole concept of "union". King_Klonopin Aug 2013 #22

nothing should be more important than the individuals right to decide loli phabay Aug 2013 #24

To decide what ? King_Klonopin Aug 2013 #25

to devide if they want to he a member of a union or not or just pay an agency fee loli phabay Aug 2013 #26

OK here's an example of my own King_Klonopin Aug 2013 #29

okay heres my example, i am not in the union due to not liking their politics loli phabay Aug 2013 #30

If one does not like the union one is free to seek employment someplace else ThirdWayCowplop Aug 2013 #34

Because, for example, one would like to work as a longshoreman Recursion Aug 2013 #44

Why would one want to be a member of an organization who does not want you? ThirdWayCowplop Aug 2013 #45

But what determines who gets to be a longshoreman shouldn't be Recursion Aug 2013 #47

Should probably stop trying to tie unions to criminal orginazations Lordquinton Aug 2013 #156

but remarkably accurate, even if you don't like the discription. grattsl Aug 2013 #166

Huh? Cartels aren't criminal organizations Recursion Aug 2013 #210

In most cases, business cartels are criminal whopis01 Sep 2013 #216

A labor union is definitely a cartel Recursion Sep 2013 #217

because the union is not the employer!!! grattsl Aug 2013 #163

Why should you have to pay money? Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #86

i dont pay dues as i am not a member, i pay an agency fee for the negotiation etc loli phabay Aug 2013 #87

You don't have the same pay and work rules the Union workers do? Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #93

everything is the same, only difference is i pay a nominal fee that covers the cost of negotiations loli phabay Aug 2013 #137

You are paying an agency when you are getting all the benefits of a Union contract? Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #143

no, the agency fee means you pay the union an agency fee to represent you in negotiations loli phabay Aug 2013 #149

So you are in fact paying dues. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #152

nope, its just a miniscule fee that covers admin for negotiations loli phabay Aug 2013 #187

Can you explain this agency arrangement? I've never heard of it. Hassin Bin Sober Aug 2013 #100

I'm finding some of this hard to believe. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #145

or you dont understand the concept. which is the more plausible possibility. loli phabay Aug 2013 #151

Well you kept calling it an agency. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #153

no, you need to reread i refer to whats called agency fees. loli phabay Aug 2013 #188

And you didn't specify that a Union was that agency. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #191

you need to go learn some labor laws before you start to try to lecture people on them loli phabay Aug 2013 #193

I'm not lecturing anyone and I'm not the only one that was unclear on what you meant. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #195

hence my saying go look it up if you are confused what agency fees are. loli phabay Aug 2013 #197

Here is some info whopis01 Sep 2013 #219

I don't think that is what he is saying whopis01 Sep 2013 #218

Do you not have any of the benefits that the Union negotiated in the CBA at your workplace? Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #125

Loli, unions support and donate money to politicians/groups King_Klonopin Sep 2013 #222

regardless of the politician or issue, if one does not agree with it or them one should not be loli phabay Aug 2013 #141

What issues are you at odds with? Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #159

well, i dont agree with some of their endorsements, or their stand on the 2nd amendment loli phabay Aug 2013 #190

I don't agree with everything my Union does either but I still pay dues. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #192

well if your happy paying for endorsements and donations you dont agree with loli phabay Aug 2013 #194

I'm quite happy, thanks. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #196

glad to hear it as am i loli phabay Aug 2013 #198

If every job is a union job as the original poster suggest, you can eigther join a union you disagee grattsl Aug 2013 #168

If you want the "freedom" of working more hours for less money, nobody is keeping you from it. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #170

That would be the republican postion for sure. Kingofalldems Aug 2013 #41

Flat out GOP position, that subthread was like walking through a meeting with Mitt Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #53

Haven't you guys noticed? These types of posters are part of the ...... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #65

Forcing people to be in a union to work is far more evil than right to work laws. grattsl Aug 2013 #161

Being in a Union is best for them. They will make more money and spend less time doing it. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #164

Wasn't best for me. grattsl Aug 2013 #171

Whatever works for you. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #181

People that enjoy Union paychecks and benefits but don't pay dues are lowlifes. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #81

If I am coerced to join a union.... Adrahil Sep 2013 #228

Yah, you're right... King_Klonopin Sep 2013 #242

Should military be unionized? Mr_Teg Aug 2013 #16

Worker = Soldier ????? King_Klonopin Aug 2013 #18

WTF are you talking about? Mr_Teg Aug 2013 #40

So you are of the mind that any exception discredits the general rule? King_Klonopin Sep 2013 #220

Got it... Mr_Teg Sep 2013 #221

Union workers do not usually make decision about what will be produced nor do they decide the Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #52

They do decide if they want to show up to work.... Mr_Teg Aug 2013 #58

Why yes, yes it would...... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #63

Yep, they should...... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #57

Really? Mr_Teg Aug 2013 #59

Not necessarily, but I DO think that the mass of "SPC Joe Snuffy"....... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #61

What a coincidence, there used to be a DUer named Joe Snuffy Kingofalldems Aug 2013 #96

It's the military equivalent of Smith... Mr_Teg Aug 2013 #99

It's the Army equivalent of "John Q. Public" Recursion Aug 2013 #121

Ummmmm... No. Adrahil Aug 2013 #62

Any military run that way wouldn't be involved in bullshit wars.......... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #64

Yes, that's lovely talk Adrahil Aug 2013 #66

Thank you for your concern........ socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #67

Thanks for your input Comrade... Adrahil Aug 2013 #68

Nope. Just your garden variety Trotskyist........ socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #70

Ok squad... Mr_Teg Aug 2013 #72

ALL the neo-liberals want a totally worked out socialist........... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #73

Ha... Mr_Teg Aug 2013 #94

The closest was the Russian military in 1917....... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #97

And do you really think that soldiers who put their lives on the line......... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #117

Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Adrahil Sep 2013 #229

Why waste money on a military that couldn't fight wars? Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #78

Agree with your last sentence over the long term.... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #95

What's the difference? Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #110

Well they probably wouldn't vote to go into Iraq....... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #115

That's not terribly informative. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #116

As I said in another post,.......... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #118

That's a terrible, terrible idea. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #128

That is such bullshit... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #205

I'm guessing you have zero experience with the military. Adrahil Sep 2013 #241

Yup. King_Klonopin Aug 2013 #17

high confidence YES riversedge Aug 2013 #31

A union is the bastard child B Calm Aug 2013 #33

They should all have the option Lee-Lee Aug 2013 #35

fuckin' a. KG Aug 2013 #36

Absolutely yes!!! Sancho Aug 2013 #37

Only if the concept of "union" is reformed beyond recognition. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #38

Good point... Mr_Teg Aug 2013 #51

And another neo-liberal, Republican talking point heard from........... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #74

There's nothing "neo" about my views, and nothing liberal about yours. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #76

Please! I've NEVER claimed to be "liberal"......... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #83

Every action or thought has a political implication. iemitsu Aug 2013 #132

Corruption is a different issue. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #136

Political parties change their vews and priorities over time. iemitsu Aug 2013 #148

IMO, Yes! Most employees really have absolutely no recourse for RKP5637 Aug 2013 #39

Oh hell yes! Scuba Aug 2013 #42

Everyone should have the option. Adrahil Aug 2013 #43

See post number 60...... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #69

Well that can change. Hassin Bin Sober Aug 2013 #105

Yep. Exactly what I argued in posts 60, 77, and 101.... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #109

Yes it can... Which is why I should have the option... Adrahil Sep 2013 #231

Cool story, Bro! Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2013 #233

I appreciate your sincere reply. nt. Adrahil Sep 2013 #235

If the people working that job so wishes, Yes by all means. nt madokie Aug 2013 #46

Exactly. 99Forever Aug 2013 #48

Exception to "non-union jobs": no_hypocrisy Aug 2013 #56

Until the company decides to NOT take care of the workers. Or.......... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #60

We are all, each of us, Dyedinthewoolliberal Aug 2013 #71

I see a flaw in the theory that all jobs Jenoch Aug 2013 #75

But all employers have the POWER to screw employees........ socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #77

Actually, it was 'the system' Jenoch Aug 2013 #89

And I wonder if that employer would have that same pressure........ socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #101

I was simply attempting to point out Jenoch Aug 2013 #107

And that's fine and I even understand the sentiment....... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #120

That can change fast. And tax policy as it stands certainly ain't helping. Hassin Bin Sober Aug 2013 #131

As I said, I am not anti-union. Jenoch Aug 2013 #135

I was mainly countering the idea... Hassin Bin Sober Aug 2013 #155

Absolutely. Octafish Aug 2013 #79

YES. nt LWolf Aug 2013 #80

"One Big Union" is actually a pretty old idea. nt bemildred Aug 2013 #84

Yes it is. The Wobblies developed the idea........ socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #102

IWW: Industrial Workers of the World. One big UNION! Taverner Aug 2013 #124

Yes... Deuce Aug 2013 #88

Yes Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #90

I've let this rattle around in my head all night Ohio Joe Aug 2013 #91

How about letting the workers decide? former9thward Aug 2013 #92

This thread certainly brought out some republicans Kingofalldems Aug 2013 #98

It sure brings out worker dissatisfaction leftstreet Aug 2013 #104

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #108

I know, huh? Taverner Aug 2013 #126

pathetic, ain't it? NoGOPZone Aug 2013 #189

These people get all Ayn Randian when McDonald's workers ask for a tiny raise. Kingofalldems Aug 2013 #202

yes, either all jobs should be unionized or we iemitsu Aug 2013 #103

I am all for the government doing it's job!!! grattsl Aug 2013 #178

There is nothing inherently wrong with Unions. iemitsu Aug 2013 #213

I think we need more relevant ideas. We don't live in the 19th century any more and we need Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #106

"We don't live in the 19th century any more" Hassin Bin Sober Aug 2013 #133

And don't forget the anti-labor laws we suffer from here. Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #140

A better idea would be a guaranteed minimum income, whether one works or not! reformist2 Aug 2013 #185

I fully support unions, I am a member of one (not active, I retain membership to support them). Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #200

No. But the vast majority should. nt rrneck Aug 2013 #114

Absolutely gopiscrap Aug 2013 #119

Absolutely Harmony Blue Aug 2013 #127

No. Glassunion Aug 2013 #129

Yes. The working class would be a VERY strong bloc Populist_Prole Aug 2013 #130

Of course. nt valerief Aug 2013 #154

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! grattsl Aug 2013 #157

Um, I think you want the Objectivism forum. Or Libertarianunderground Taverner Aug 2013 #160

I am a Democrat, and find myself on the left of the party on most issues. grattsl Aug 2013 #174

I don't know what line of work you're in... mike_c Aug 2013 #169

I used to be union. grattsl Aug 2013 #175

Then that Post Office union must be a thorn in your side. nt valerief Aug 2013 #177

I'm not telling anyone not to join a union. Don't make me take a pay cut to join yours. grattsl Aug 2013 #179

Shop STEWARD........... socialist_n_TN Sep 2013 #223

You must be one of those "Reagan" Democrats........... socialist_n_TN Sep 2013 #225

I agree 100 percent.... mike_c Aug 2013 #162

We in IT should have unionized in the 90s Taverner Aug 2013 #165

big YES. All of them if I had my way. k&r Little Star Aug 2013 #172

Yes jwirr Aug 2013 #173

Workers of the world, unite! But do so in small groups first. ;) reformist2 Aug 2013 #184

If you don't like unions, don't join one. See how simple it is? Nye Bevan Aug 2013 #186

Yes. Including the military. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2013 #199

Hell yes, they should. nt awoke_in_2003 Aug 2013 #203

There are good things and bad things about unions Nikia Aug 2013 #206

Thing is it's not always seniority Taverner Aug 2013 #211

Right, but if a guy who is nowhere near as good as you is ahead of you Recursion Aug 2013 #212

There's no substitute for experience upi402 Sep 2013 #230

I'm self employed. I guess I could strike on myself for better wages. oneshooter Aug 2013 #207

Yes, without a doubt. idwiyo Aug 2013 #208

Short answer: yes!!!!!! Initech Aug 2013 #209

All workers should have basic protections. hay rick Sep 2013 #214

Yup. Chan790 Sep 2013 #215

As long as everyone has to ability to opt out and not pay dues. Dreamer Tatum Sep 2013 #224

Yes! 100%!!! eom upi402 Sep 2013 #227