General Discussion

leveymg

(36,418 posts)

158. The evidence is not convincing. The court is public opinion. DU is part of that.

Sun Sep 1, 2013, 09:59 PM

Sep 2013

I agree, determining the origins and provenance of the weapons used is essential, just as it would be in a court of law.

But, this isn't a civil trial, where the preponderance of the evidence wins. It's matter of much greater seriousness and consequence - a capital crime of mass murder, where the evidence of guilt and command responsibility must be established beyond a reasonable doubt.

Look, I'm just a citizen who has an interest in this and some background information, related skills and experience in investigations and law. If I can poke any sort of hole, on my own, in the State Department's report it tells me that the evidence is flimsy and the government has done a poor job of presenting its indictment. I expect to see better from them in coming days - but, if they can't answer these questions, I won't go along with punative action.

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Syrian "gas rockets" appear homemade and incapable of flying 5-10 miles to target. [View all] leveymg Sep 2013 OP

according to whom? nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #1

What according to whom? leveymg Sep 2013 #2

the assertions in your OP nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #3

Which assertions? leveymg Sep 2013 #6

that the delivery systems fr the gas appear to be homemade and incapable of reaching targets arely staircase Sep 2013 #9

What's your source for this report? n/t winter is coming Sep 2013 #5

The State Department report asserts: leveymg Sep 2013 #10

ok that seem to contradict the unsourced assertion and picture of some unidentified thing in your OP arely staircase Sep 2013 #15

Here's a Daily Mail news photo of a UN inspector taking samples near the same type of rocket: leveymg Sep 2013 #48

OK and you think it is incapable of reaching more than five miles why? nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #50

It's a highly innacurate, nose-heavy improvised device. leveymg Sep 2013 #56

Is that your opinion? tabasco Sep 2013 #115

Ok, you qualified your credentials. Now, tell us how they were all launched from regime-controlled leveymg Sep 2013 #130

no bullshit let's not advocate positions I really want to know why you think that thing arely staircase Sep 2013 #132

I said accurately. The reason that accuracy is important is that the lethal dispersal area is small leveymg Sep 2013 #157

Common sense from the look of it. dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #7

the looks of what? arely staircase Sep 2013 #11

All of the photos published show devices exactly like that. leveymg Sep 2013 #14

a link would be nice nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #18

Here is what I found maddezmom Sep 2013 #21

There are 2 types shown there: the long tubes and a rebel propane tank with swept-back fins leveymg Sep 2013 #26

this is the definition of a strawman argument arely staircase Sep 2013 #38

A Boeing 747 doesn't "appear" to be capable of flying at all. And yet it does. n/t pnwmom Sep 2013 #39

See #48 above and revised OP leveymg Sep 2013 #49

I did. There's nothing except another picture that proves nothing pnwmom Sep 2013 #52

The point is that there is cause to doubt the assertion that they were fired from regime territory leveymg Sep 2013 #57

There may be reason to doubt -- but not because of this picture. pnwmom Sep 2013 #59

The doubt is raised about the claim the rockets were fired from "regime territory." That claim isn't leveymg Sep 2013 #68

No, I don't see. You can't tell by looking at this thing what it is exactly pnwmom Sep 2013 #159

same device nebenaube Sep 2013 #85

I'm pretty sure the "hell cannon" munition is different from the one in these pictures Scootaloo Sep 2013 #95

OK, what do you think the range of this kind of mortar would be? BlueStreak Sep 2013 #117

actually, I think it's a hybrid... nebenaube Sep 2013 #122

So do you think you could get 10 miles with any accuracy? BlueStreak Sep 2013 #123

According to the rebels who use it, it has a 1.5km range Scootaloo Sep 2013 #125

OK. I now know why the OP didn't post their source. arely staircase Sep 2013 #27

The photos are all over the internet - they are of the type shown. leveymg Sep 2013 #42

So are videos of Mily Cyrus. nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #44

"the rebels" are al-Qaeda, and the Syrian people aren't "al-Qaeda's people" delrem Sep 2013 #73

Thank you for stating what everyone SHOULD already know!!! nt 7962 Sep 2013 #99

I found this from the photo's watermark.... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #24

That's a rebel sympathizer site. I found it reposted on Google images. leveymg Sep 2013 #30

So a rebel sympathizer tries to pass this off as proof.... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #34

That's not the only source - but, they all show the same type of rocket. See #48. leveymg Sep 2013 #43

wow nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #35

The unfounded claims of both pro- and anti-intervention are worthless. No help at all in knowing JDPriestly Sep 2013 #82

The rush is that the President made a statement and doesnt want to look like a fool 7962 Sep 2013 #102

Thank you, JDP arely staircase Sep 2013 #129

It's a thing called "physics" Scootaloo Sep 2013 #93

The Quassam is at least shaped to fly like a rocket. These things are aerodynamic bricks leveymg Sep 2013 #112

Well, that's pretty much what I'm saying Scootaloo Sep 2013 #126

I don't think the physical evidence proves what the State Dept report claims. leveymg Sep 2013 #138

I have no idea who shot what, and like you am wanting a thorough investigation Scootaloo Sep 2013 #141

I'm afraid that unless the Congressional leadership demands an independent accounting, there won't leveymg Sep 2013 #143

Absurd isn't it. dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #4

There also was never a followup report from rebels caught in Turkey with chems... L0oniX Sep 2013 #8

They had some problems in Gezi park jakeXT Sep 2013 #23

. L0oniX Sep 2013 #28

They are still investigating it .. lol jakeXT Sep 2013 #41

I haven't seen many disputing some rebels have tried to use gas. Barack_America Sep 2013 #65

This too- Turkey arrests Syrian Nusra Front militants with Sarin and heavy weapons Catherina Sep 2013 #124

That photo came from this blog: MineralMan Sep 2013 #12

There are a bunch of other photos of the same type of rocket. Here's another leveymg Sep 2013 #22

from where? whom? I see another picture of a random object taken somewhere on the planet earth. arely staircase Sep 2013 #32

See revised article, photo of UN weapons inspector with same type of rocket below: leveymg Sep 2013 #51

Original source is Demotix.com Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #40

Rockets never have guidance systems.. that makes them missiles. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #13

Which is why there's something wrong with the either the State Report or the reports of rockets used leveymg Sep 2013 #17

You don't need accuracy with WMD.. that is the point. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #20

These things don't have sophisticated aerosol dispersants. Probably not effective leveymg Sep 2013 #33

Why no link.. still? Are you ashamed of where you got this from? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #47

Here's a photo form the UK Daily Mail - UN inspector with same type of rocket: leveymg Sep 2013 #53

Can I please get a link to your OP information? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #54

What part of it do you need a link to? leveymg Sep 2013 #60

How do you know so much about rockets... Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #62

If you have better evidence to the contrary, please produce it. leveymg Sep 2013 #70

Your assumptions are absurd. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #79

That is not true. Sarin has to be in aerosol form to be effective outside of a small impact area. leveymg Sep 2013 #83

Then explain the body count. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #119

The opposition has used Serin and is fully capable of manufacturing and using these rockets. leveymg Sep 2013 #148

You still present no evidence. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #153

You have it backwards. The burden is on the prosecution to make the case that a crime has been leveymg Sep 2013 #155

They have presented evidence. Plus, DU is not a court. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #156

The evidence is not convincing. The court is public opinion. DU is part of that. leveymg Sep 2013 #158

Rockets do have guidance systems. Here is a picture of some. Arctic Dave Sep 2013 #91

Not these things. Fixed fins. No movable thrust. leveymg Sep 2013 #106

Are you trying to be deceptive or are you just way off base? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #118

Ok, what's your point? leveymg Sep 2013 #121

In your OP you presented as evidence Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #151

LOL tabasco Sep 2013 #116

Educate us. leveymg Sep 2013 #120

Right, the Saturn 5 ROCKET that took us to the MOON, didn't have a guidance system. OMG, thanks! grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #97

The rocket didn't... it was just the launch system. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #114

So it was a rocket with a guidance system, but not a missile. grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #160

No, it had a pilot/crew. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #162

This is so ridiculous I don't know if I should even bother to comment. reusrename Sep 2013 #168

A former Iranian president said Assad set them off BainsBane Sep 2013 #16

Did Assad fire them from the roof of the Presidential Palace? leveymg Sep 2013 #19

Obviously he ordered them BainsBane Sep 2013 #25

That is not at all obvious. The Syrian Defense Minister wasn't informed - he's the highest chain of leveymg Sep 2013 #36

You have got to be kidding, you are relying upon the Syrian defense minister to deliver MindMover Sep 2013 #109

No more than we should be relying on US intelligence!!!!! uponit7771 Sep 2013 #128

Yea, Ok, another snowdunder .... MindMover Sep 2013 #133

No, I don't trust them and have a fact based logical reason not to uponit7771 Sep 2013 #136

Ok, your "fact based logical reason not to" comes from ... MindMover Sep 2013 #137

or... or, I can trust neither intel community because they done all they can to lose trust uponit7771 Sep 2013 #139

I did not mean that all intelligence communities believed the BS about Iraq ... MindMover Sep 2013 #145

"thousands of pictures and first hand accounts" None of them have any proof that it was Syrias uponit7771 Sep 2013 #147

Yea, sure, a Saudi prince gave some rebels some sarin gas to disperse ... MindMover Sep 2013 #149

Former? How long ago former? JDPriestly Sep 2013 #86

How do you know that photo wasn't staged? moondust Sep 2013 #29

link? rollin74 Sep 2013 #31

It is quite amazing sarisataka Sep 2013 #37

It doesn't even spin for stabilization. You can tell by looking at it that it is not accurate leveymg Sep 2013 #45

How can you tell it doesn't spin... sarisataka Sep 2013 #46

Ironically, that's exactly what witnesses reported. Barack_America Sep 2013 #61

You need to identify that device. It is not generic. leveymg Sep 2013 #63

There are many rocket systems in Syria sarisataka Sep 2013 #161

They all look to be within five miles of some contested area treestar Sep 2013 #55

The State Dept report states several times "regime-controlled." That's not a minor point. leveymg Sep 2013 #64

Only Duma appears out of range treestar Sep 2013 #69

The point is not the absolute range of the rocket, it's the accuracy of delivery and its utility leveymg Sep 2013 #71

Our Presidents intelligence community is all wrong ... BS MindMover Sep 2013 #58

The point is the "evidence" and conclusions in the Report are not really convincing on their face. leveymg Sep 2013 #66

Maybe another countries reporting might help ... MindMover Sep 2013 #67

I read that. It's unsourced or anonymous source. We do know however that Israel is the leveymg Sep 2013 #74

There are thousands of other even more credible sources of information and intelligence .. MindMover Sep 2013 #75

I'm not favoring anyone - I want the Admin. to release all the evidence so we can make our own leveymg Sep 2013 #77

Your assumptions are only assumptions ... I have my own assumptions ... MindMover Sep 2013 #84

I'm sorry, not going to war without solid evidence this time. Didn't you learn from the Iraq War? leveymg Sep 2013 #89

First, I learned that making up shit to purport your mission is not solid evidence .... MindMover Sep 2013 #90

Hence the Iraq War. go west young man Sep 2013 #92

Your use of the label neoconservative is interesting ... MindMover Sep 2013 #96

Consider the V-2 jmowreader Sep 2013 #72

The thing is, without a sophisticated aerosol dispersant, Sarin isn't really very effective at long leveymg Sep 2013 #76

Then how did it kill 1429 people? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #81

There would have had to have been many hundreds of these crude rockets launched. We have yet to see leveymg Sep 2013 #87

Where do you come up with the "hundreds" .... MindMover Sep 2013 #98

There are 12 targeted areas indicated on the map. leveymg Sep 2013 #100

OK, 12 is not hundreds ... MindMover Sep 2013 #101

Each targeted area would require a dozen or more rockets for many fatalities- artillery would kill leveymg Sep 2013 #105

I do not agree with the anal ysts, sarin is much more lethal in confined areas such as cities MindMover Sep 2013 #107

It's a clear gaseous vapor that's slightly heavier than air. Tends to sink, not rise. leveymg Sep 2013 #110

So you are saying there were not 1429 people killed? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #113

No, I'm saying they probably weren't all launched from regime-controlled territory as the US report leveymg Sep 2013 #134

In my many times traveling around the sun .... MindMover Sep 2013 #104

Or an UNsophisticated one... jmowreader Sep 2013 #127

But, the stuff usually has to be inhaled to kill you leveymg Sep 2013 #131

Sarin is the most volatile nerve agent available jmowreader Sep 2013 #146

It is a bit more volatile than water, and vaporizes about as quickly leveymg Sep 2013 #152

There's a reason "rocket science" earns such a high perch. Robb Sep 2013 #78

If Sarin gas weapons were really easy to make, every gangster and lunatic would have them. leveymg Sep 2013 #80

making it more likely done by a nation state with international connections arely staircase Sep 2013 #135

The opposition has also used Serin in this war. leveymg Sep 2013 #140

true. they have deep pocket gulf state backers arely staircase Sep 2013 #142

Logical is a good start. leveymg Sep 2013 #144

It's not the weapon that's the problem. The gas itself is the problem jmowreader Sep 2013 #150

It's highly concentrated insecticide. Not that sophisticated, and easy to mimic so that forensics leveymg Sep 2013 #154

Launcher found... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #88

Here's a link to an article that may explain this. MineralMan Sep 2013 #94

No, that is not a BM-14. It's a US-made anti-mine fuel-air explosive rocket used at closer leveymg Sep 2013 #103

Yes, the article referred to the Bm-14. MineralMan Sep 2013 #108

That's not a BM-14. I'll stick by my conclusion that either the State Report is in error or else leveymg Sep 2013 #111

In post #120 you asked for a source Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #164

New French Intelligence report disagrees with your claims Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #163

More evidence you are wrong Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #165

Assad has access to more sophisticated weaponry. bvar22 Sep 2013 #166

It's an American Design, how creative of the Syrians.. Jesus Malverde Sep 2013 #167

These links look very interesting re: CW dkf Sep 2013 #169