General Discussion

sarisataka

(22,660 posts)

161. There are many rocket systems in Syria

Mon Sep 2, 2013, 02:11 AM

Sep 2013

upwards of a dozen different systems in the Syrian military. It is not surprising that there are not many open sources that detail the interiors of these weapons but some detective work can give possibilities.

We need a short range rocket, large enough to hold that component and capable of chemical weapon delivery. These criteria eliminate some like the Type 63 or BM-4 as they are too small to hold a part that appears to be > 6 in. diameter. Others like the Farj 3 with a range of 43 km have too great of range to be likely.

We are left with 2 very good candidates. Most likely is the Soviet built BM-27 Uragan. It is a 220 mm rocket with a maximum range of 35 km and is capable of delivering chemical payloads. Syria is known to have 36 launch vehicles.

Another possibility is the BM-24. It is a 240 mm rocket with a maximum range of 11 km fits very well. A strike against it is the age of this system. Designed in 1953 many have been destroyed in combat or retired for newer systems. Syria was know to have used them in 1973 against Israel but it is not know how many, if any, are still in service.

It is not clear from the photos if there is any cant to the fins. They would use gasses for the rocket exhaust to generate spin so would not need to be extreme to produce enough spin to stabilize a rocket for the short duration of its flight. These are saturation weapons so accuracy is moderate at best.

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Syrian "gas rockets" appear homemade and incapable of flying 5-10 miles to target. [View all] leveymg Sep 2013 OP

according to whom? nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #1

What according to whom? leveymg Sep 2013 #2

the assertions in your OP nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #3

Which assertions? leveymg Sep 2013 #6

that the delivery systems fr the gas appear to be homemade and incapable of reaching targets arely staircase Sep 2013 #9

What's your source for this report? n/t winter is coming Sep 2013 #5

The State Department report asserts: leveymg Sep 2013 #10

ok that seem to contradict the unsourced assertion and picture of some unidentified thing in your OP arely staircase Sep 2013 #15

Here's a Daily Mail news photo of a UN inspector taking samples near the same type of rocket: leveymg Sep 2013 #48

OK and you think it is incapable of reaching more than five miles why? nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #50

It's a highly innacurate, nose-heavy improvised device. leveymg Sep 2013 #56

Is that your opinion? tabasco Sep 2013 #115

Ok, you qualified your credentials. Now, tell us how they were all launched from regime-controlled leveymg Sep 2013 #130

no bullshit let's not advocate positions I really want to know why you think that thing arely staircase Sep 2013 #132

I said accurately. The reason that accuracy is important is that the lethal dispersal area is small leveymg Sep 2013 #157

Common sense from the look of it. dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #7

the looks of what? arely staircase Sep 2013 #11

All of the photos published show devices exactly like that. leveymg Sep 2013 #14

a link would be nice nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #18

Here is what I found maddezmom Sep 2013 #21

There are 2 types shown there: the long tubes and a rebel propane tank with swept-back fins leveymg Sep 2013 #26

this is the definition of a strawman argument arely staircase Sep 2013 #38

A Boeing 747 doesn't "appear" to be capable of flying at all. And yet it does. n/t pnwmom Sep 2013 #39

See #48 above and revised OP leveymg Sep 2013 #49

I did. There's nothing except another picture that proves nothing pnwmom Sep 2013 #52

The point is that there is cause to doubt the assertion that they were fired from regime territory leveymg Sep 2013 #57

There may be reason to doubt -- but not because of this picture. pnwmom Sep 2013 #59

The doubt is raised about the claim the rockets were fired from "regime territory." That claim isn't leveymg Sep 2013 #68

No, I don't see. You can't tell by looking at this thing what it is exactly pnwmom Sep 2013 #159

same device nebenaube Sep 2013 #85

I'm pretty sure the "hell cannon" munition is different from the one in these pictures Scootaloo Sep 2013 #95

OK, what do you think the range of this kind of mortar would be? BlueStreak Sep 2013 #117

actually, I think it's a hybrid... nebenaube Sep 2013 #122

So do you think you could get 10 miles with any accuracy? BlueStreak Sep 2013 #123

According to the rebels who use it, it has a 1.5km range Scootaloo Sep 2013 #125

OK. I now know why the OP didn't post their source. arely staircase Sep 2013 #27

The photos are all over the internet - they are of the type shown. leveymg Sep 2013 #42

So are videos of Mily Cyrus. nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #44

"the rebels" are al-Qaeda, and the Syrian people aren't "al-Qaeda's people" delrem Sep 2013 #73

Thank you for stating what everyone SHOULD already know!!! nt 7962 Sep 2013 #99

I found this from the photo's watermark.... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #24

That's a rebel sympathizer site. I found it reposted on Google images. leveymg Sep 2013 #30

So a rebel sympathizer tries to pass this off as proof.... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #34

That's not the only source - but, they all show the same type of rocket. See #48. leveymg Sep 2013 #43

wow nt arely staircase Sep 2013 #35

The unfounded claims of both pro- and anti-intervention are worthless. No help at all in knowing JDPriestly Sep 2013 #82

The rush is that the President made a statement and doesnt want to look like a fool 7962 Sep 2013 #102

Thank you, JDP arely staircase Sep 2013 #129

It's a thing called "physics" Scootaloo Sep 2013 #93

The Quassam is at least shaped to fly like a rocket. These things are aerodynamic bricks leveymg Sep 2013 #112

Well, that's pretty much what I'm saying Scootaloo Sep 2013 #126

I don't think the physical evidence proves what the State Dept report claims. leveymg Sep 2013 #138

I have no idea who shot what, and like you am wanting a thorough investigation Scootaloo Sep 2013 #141

I'm afraid that unless the Congressional leadership demands an independent accounting, there won't leveymg Sep 2013 #143

Absurd isn't it. dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #4

There also was never a followup report from rebels caught in Turkey with chems... L0oniX Sep 2013 #8

They had some problems in Gezi park jakeXT Sep 2013 #23

. L0oniX Sep 2013 #28

They are still investigating it .. lol jakeXT Sep 2013 #41

I haven't seen many disputing some rebels have tried to use gas. Barack_America Sep 2013 #65

This too- Turkey arrests Syrian Nusra Front militants with Sarin and heavy weapons Catherina Sep 2013 #124

That photo came from this blog: MineralMan Sep 2013 #12

There are a bunch of other photos of the same type of rocket. Here's another leveymg Sep 2013 #22

from where? whom? I see another picture of a random object taken somewhere on the planet earth. arely staircase Sep 2013 #32

See revised article, photo of UN weapons inspector with same type of rocket below: leveymg Sep 2013 #51

Original source is Demotix.com Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #40

Rockets never have guidance systems.. that makes them missiles. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #13

Which is why there's something wrong with the either the State Report or the reports of rockets used leveymg Sep 2013 #17

You don't need accuracy with WMD.. that is the point. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #20

These things don't have sophisticated aerosol dispersants. Probably not effective leveymg Sep 2013 #33

Why no link.. still? Are you ashamed of where you got this from? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #47

Here's a photo form the UK Daily Mail - UN inspector with same type of rocket: leveymg Sep 2013 #53

Can I please get a link to your OP information? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #54

What part of it do you need a link to? leveymg Sep 2013 #60

How do you know so much about rockets... Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #62

If you have better evidence to the contrary, please produce it. leveymg Sep 2013 #70

Your assumptions are absurd. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #79

That is not true. Sarin has to be in aerosol form to be effective outside of a small impact area. leveymg Sep 2013 #83

Then explain the body count. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #119

The opposition has used Serin and is fully capable of manufacturing and using these rockets. leveymg Sep 2013 #148

You still present no evidence. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #153

You have it backwards. The burden is on the prosecution to make the case that a crime has been leveymg Sep 2013 #155

They have presented evidence. Plus, DU is not a court. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #156

The evidence is not convincing. The court is public opinion. DU is part of that. leveymg Sep 2013 #158

Rockets do have guidance systems. Here is a picture of some. Arctic Dave Sep 2013 #91

Not these things. Fixed fins. No movable thrust. leveymg Sep 2013 #106

Are you trying to be deceptive or are you just way off base? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #118

Ok, what's your point? leveymg Sep 2013 #121

In your OP you presented as evidence Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #151

LOL tabasco Sep 2013 #116

Educate us. leveymg Sep 2013 #120

Right, the Saturn 5 ROCKET that took us to the MOON, didn't have a guidance system. OMG, thanks! grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #97

The rocket didn't... it was just the launch system. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #114

So it was a rocket with a guidance system, but not a missile. grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #160

No, it had a pilot/crew. Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #162

This is so ridiculous I don't know if I should even bother to comment. reusrename Sep 2013 #168

A former Iranian president said Assad set them off BainsBane Sep 2013 #16

Did Assad fire them from the roof of the Presidential Palace? leveymg Sep 2013 #19

Obviously he ordered them BainsBane Sep 2013 #25

That is not at all obvious. The Syrian Defense Minister wasn't informed - he's the highest chain of leveymg Sep 2013 #36

You have got to be kidding, you are relying upon the Syrian defense minister to deliver MindMover Sep 2013 #109

No more than we should be relying on US intelligence!!!!! uponit7771 Sep 2013 #128

Yea, Ok, another snowdunder .... MindMover Sep 2013 #133

No, I don't trust them and have a fact based logical reason not to uponit7771 Sep 2013 #136

Ok, your "fact based logical reason not to" comes from ... MindMover Sep 2013 #137

or... or, I can trust neither intel community because they done all they can to lose trust uponit7771 Sep 2013 #139

I did not mean that all intelligence communities believed the BS about Iraq ... MindMover Sep 2013 #145

"thousands of pictures and first hand accounts" None of them have any proof that it was Syrias uponit7771 Sep 2013 #147

Yea, sure, a Saudi prince gave some rebels some sarin gas to disperse ... MindMover Sep 2013 #149

Former? How long ago former? JDPriestly Sep 2013 #86

How do you know that photo wasn't staged? moondust Sep 2013 #29

link? rollin74 Sep 2013 #31

It is quite amazing sarisataka Sep 2013 #37

It doesn't even spin for stabilization. You can tell by looking at it that it is not accurate leveymg Sep 2013 #45

How can you tell it doesn't spin... sarisataka Sep 2013 #46

Ironically, that's exactly what witnesses reported. Barack_America Sep 2013 #61

You need to identify that device. It is not generic. leveymg Sep 2013 #63

There are many rocket systems in Syria sarisataka Sep 2013 #161

They all look to be within five miles of some contested area treestar Sep 2013 #55

The State Dept report states several times "regime-controlled." That's not a minor point. leveymg Sep 2013 #64

Only Duma appears out of range treestar Sep 2013 #69

The point is not the absolute range of the rocket, it's the accuracy of delivery and its utility leveymg Sep 2013 #71

Our Presidents intelligence community is all wrong ... BS MindMover Sep 2013 #58

The point is the "evidence" and conclusions in the Report are not really convincing on their face. leveymg Sep 2013 #66

Maybe another countries reporting might help ... MindMover Sep 2013 #67

I read that. It's unsourced or anonymous source. We do know however that Israel is the leveymg Sep 2013 #74

There are thousands of other even more credible sources of information and intelligence .. MindMover Sep 2013 #75

I'm not favoring anyone - I want the Admin. to release all the evidence so we can make our own leveymg Sep 2013 #77

Your assumptions are only assumptions ... I have my own assumptions ... MindMover Sep 2013 #84

I'm sorry, not going to war without solid evidence this time. Didn't you learn from the Iraq War? leveymg Sep 2013 #89

First, I learned that making up shit to purport your mission is not solid evidence .... MindMover Sep 2013 #90

Hence the Iraq War. go west young man Sep 2013 #92

Your use of the label neoconservative is interesting ... MindMover Sep 2013 #96

Consider the V-2 jmowreader Sep 2013 #72

The thing is, without a sophisticated aerosol dispersant, Sarin isn't really very effective at long leveymg Sep 2013 #76

Then how did it kill 1429 people? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #81

There would have had to have been many hundreds of these crude rockets launched. We have yet to see leveymg Sep 2013 #87

Where do you come up with the "hundreds" .... MindMover Sep 2013 #98

There are 12 targeted areas indicated on the map. leveymg Sep 2013 #100

OK, 12 is not hundreds ... MindMover Sep 2013 #101

Each targeted area would require a dozen or more rockets for many fatalities- artillery would kill leveymg Sep 2013 #105

I do not agree with the anal ysts, sarin is much more lethal in confined areas such as cities MindMover Sep 2013 #107

It's a clear gaseous vapor that's slightly heavier than air. Tends to sink, not rise. leveymg Sep 2013 #110

So you are saying there were not 1429 people killed? Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #113

No, I'm saying they probably weren't all launched from regime-controlled territory as the US report leveymg Sep 2013 #134

In my many times traveling around the sun .... MindMover Sep 2013 #104

Or an UNsophisticated one... jmowreader Sep 2013 #127

But, the stuff usually has to be inhaled to kill you leveymg Sep 2013 #131

Sarin is the most volatile nerve agent available jmowreader Sep 2013 #146

It is a bit more volatile than water, and vaporizes about as quickly leveymg Sep 2013 #152

There's a reason "rocket science" earns such a high perch. Robb Sep 2013 #78

If Sarin gas weapons were really easy to make, every gangster and lunatic would have them. leveymg Sep 2013 #80

making it more likely done by a nation state with international connections arely staircase Sep 2013 #135

The opposition has also used Serin in this war. leveymg Sep 2013 #140

true. they have deep pocket gulf state backers arely staircase Sep 2013 #142

Logical is a good start. leveymg Sep 2013 #144

It's not the weapon that's the problem. The gas itself is the problem jmowreader Sep 2013 #150

It's highly concentrated insecticide. Not that sophisticated, and easy to mimic so that forensics leveymg Sep 2013 #154

Launcher found... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #88

Here's a link to an article that may explain this. MineralMan Sep 2013 #94

No, that is not a BM-14. It's a US-made anti-mine fuel-air explosive rocket used at closer leveymg Sep 2013 #103

Yes, the article referred to the Bm-14. MineralMan Sep 2013 #108

That's not a BM-14. I'll stick by my conclusion that either the State Report is in error or else leveymg Sep 2013 #111

In post #120 you asked for a source Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #164

New French Intelligence report disagrees with your claims Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #163

More evidence you are wrong Motown_Johnny Sep 2013 #165

Assad has access to more sophisticated weaponry. bvar22 Sep 2013 #166

It's an American Design, how creative of the Syrians.. Jesus Malverde Sep 2013 #167

These links look very interesting re: CW dkf Sep 2013 #169