General Discussion

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)

101. Its not simple or black and white at all.

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 04:32 PM

Sep 2013

And I certainly don't think of it as a movie or a video game. I'm not a naïve child.

The fact is, chemical weapons can grant certain death to thousands of people within minutes. If its true that the Syrian government used them, then I don't object to trying to take away or at least significantly decrease their ability to do it again. I've never been against military action that seeks to prevent loss of life on a genocidal scale. I think we should've done something about Darfur. I think we were right to do something about Kosovo. I think we were right to do something about Libya.

If our actions end up harming a bunch of innocent bystanders and becomes a prolonged engagement beyond what I understand the current scope to be, then I'll criticize that, I'll protest that, I'll be against that.

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Kerry: Bombing other countries is not "Going to war." [View all] cthulu2016 Sep 2013 OP

:-( nt stevenleser Sep 2013 #1

it would be for me if I were targeted and my family killed. kerry is a sell out. roguevalley Sep 2013 #233

Orwell would be proud, Mr. Kerry. Hell Hath No Fury Sep 2013 #2

Remember that time in 1941 when Japan didn't go to war with the US? Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #246

Perfect response. n/t Psephos Sep 2013 #254

Nope, doesn't look like war to me at all. Hell Hath No Fury Sep 2013 #268

dropping bombs on the assets of the government of a foreign country for the purpose of punishing .. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #3

That is as may be, but you you suggesting it isn't war? cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #9

Who cares about semantics? It will be a military intervention with no boots on the ground. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #20

Unless Al-Nusra gets hold of some chemical weapons, as Kerry explained /nt jakeXT Sep 2013 #24

Nothing is 100% proof. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #29

We don't have anything certain in terms of proof. So do we need to rush to war - throwing bombs avaistheone1 Sep 2013 #245

Which as Kerry did not say could happen if we attack or not karynnj Sep 2013 #129

John Kerry cares about semantics, that's who. Iggo Sep 2013 #35

Im not posting here to defend Kerrys words. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #40

I know why you are posting here. tazkcmo Sep 2013 #152

As I said down stream, it's a apparently not war when AllyCat Sep 2013 #248

If it were Russia or China we were talking about would you still be chomping at the bit Bandit Sep 2013 #203

This is not about punishing the country. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #261

God save us from you oh so "moral" avengers. delrem Sep 2013 #256

did we declare war in Kosovo? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #44

The Kosovo War? Iggo Sep 2013 #65

Until Bill Clinton stepped up the game.. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #122

And what was my premise again? Iggo Sep 2013 #127

Otherwise he wouldn't be bending over backwards to convince you that it's not war. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #130

You're right. I'm wrong. Iggo Sep 2013 #144

Look at the knots they're twisting themselves into LittleBlue Sep 2013 #139

Crazy, isn't it? Iggo Sep 2013 #145

I bet its amusing to you. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #262

OFFS progressoid Sep 2013 #226

It matters to those of us that fight these non-wars tazkcmo Sep 2013 #150

And then this afternoon in his testimony Kerry couldn't even completely rule out totodeinhere Sep 2013 #201

That's right. This is step one of a many step program called "regime change". delrem Sep 2013 #258

Push button war! What could be more video game-like? AllyCat Sep 2013 #235

Bye. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #236

we've had some monsters in the Carolina Sep 2013 #52

So Assads is not who we thought he was. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #58

Oh puhleeze Carolina Sep 2013 #63

Yes we do. The whole world apparently does. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #85

yeah right, and that's why the whole world Carolina Sep 2013 #103

LOL!... darkangel218 Sep 2013 #107

yeah Carolina Sep 2013 #109

So are yours about ignoring WMDs and genocide. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #111

So when the CIA Unknown Beatle Sep 2013 #148

Did you read my posts? i said two wrongs dont make a right. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #168

And you couldn't be any happier. tazkcmo Sep 2013 #180

So why were you against the Iraq war? tazkcmo Sep 2013 #163

Post removed Post removed Sep 2013 #219

And now the LOLing tazkcmo Sep 2013 #158

it's become evident that Kerry is not who we thought he was either. frylock Sep 2013 #88

He is exactly who i thought he was. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #92

well good for you! frylock Sep 2013 #100

She owns stock. n/t tazkcmo Sep 2013 #165

Interesting, so the Kerrys are war profiteers. Ocelot Sep 2013 #188

Get it right! tazkcmo Sep 2013 #190

"Not who we thought he was?" mazzarro Sep 2013 #126

Yes, he is not someone who can change their way. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #133

Again, Blind Eye tazkcmo Sep 2013 #155

Assad was NOT "our" guy, he war Russia's and Iran's karynnj Sep 2013 #132

I thought he was Nancy Pelosi's guy. totodeinhere Sep 2013 #204

No - he wasn't. karynnj Sep 2013 #218

So if speaking to countries we are not in agreement is a good thing, and I agree that it is, totodeinhere Sep 2013 #223

Really Carolina Sep 2013 #221

Genocide? MNBrewer Sep 2013 #64

Ask the people of Afganistan or Iraq if the bombing or killing ever stops. Dawgs Sep 2013 #82

...which they admit the bombing will not do.... grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #91

Dropping bombs on anyone, regardless of reason, is an act of war.... Swede Atlanta Sep 2013 #128

How do you know Assad is a monster? zeemike Sep 2013 #140

Take a look at the footage of his" work." darkangel218 Sep 2013 #143

So you saw him launching the weapons? zeemike Sep 2013 #159

Lol. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #166

No tazkcmo Sep 2013 #177

There is no hyperbole at all...I was dead serious zeemike Sep 2013 #207

Moved to a new thread I see. tazkcmo Sep 2013 #142

What a tool. whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #4

I am not surprised he made this ridiculous assertion. JRLeft Sep 2013 #5

Technically I would think that qualifies as an act of war Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #6

People dying aren't people dying. Makes sense Autumn Sep 2013 #7

The department of death determines what is and isn't war. JRLeft Sep 2013 #12

Disgraceful. 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #8

Yeah he does....and that "SOB" served his country VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #47

Need someone have served in the military to have an opinion? MNBrewer Sep 2013 #68

no but it means that you deserve more than to be called an SOB for having one... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #113

Donald Rumsfeld served in the US Navy LittleBlue Sep 2013 #141

With Donald Rumsfeld....we found out he WAS wrong.... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #149

Respect is eanred tazkcmo Sep 2013 #174

Know who else served in the military? These guys! MNBrewer Sep 2013 #197

opinion is the Carolina Sep 2013 #69

Oh and now he is a "fucktard" because he has an opinion that is different than yours? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #114

He knows what going to war is Bradical79 Sep 2013 #176

What if another country bombs the US? Would we not regard it as an act of war? Orrex Sep 2013 #10

Should we have viewed Pearl Harbor differently? broiles Sep 2013 #23

+1 David Krout Sep 2013 #146

It flies in the face of common sense. David__77 Sep 2013 #11

If we had killer robots we could avoid "going to war" altogether cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #13

It's code for: "It will only kill THEM and not US." David__77 Sep 2013 #18

and if he takes out Assad's chemical weapons...will you eat your words? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #50

chemical weapons that came from the Carolina Sep 2013 #60

So? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #121

Bombing Assad's chemical weapons stocks won't "take them out." totodeinhere Sep 2013 #119

We have been working on methods to neutralize them for over a decade.. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #185

I would have disagreed with you before Kerry opened his big mouth. But since totodeinhere Sep 2013 #199

before you opened "your big mouth" you mean? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #200

Isn't that what forums like this are for? n/t totodeinhere Sep 2013 #202

then wasn't the hearing where John Kerry was supposed to open his? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #205

The difference is that I am an Internet poster. On the other hand Mr. Kerry totodeinhere Sep 2013 #217

Take 'em out where? tazkcmo Sep 2013 #183

When one country bombs another country, it is an act of war The Second Stone Sep 2013 #14

Who actually believes that bullshit? kentuck Sep 2013 #15

Notice he says "OIHER countries"? But we know if someone bombs the USA? 99th_Monkey Sep 2013 #196

An act of war is "not going to war." ProSense Sep 2013 #16

Fuck yes! What sort of MORON did not consider cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #22

Ridiculous. Clinton took those actions without even consulting Congress, and most ProSense Sep 2013 #26

Prosense: What sort of MORON considers a drone strike "going to war?" cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #33

So if a drone strike ProSense Sep 2013 #53

Yes, it is going to war. cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #71

That's absolute nonsense. Taking out a building is not the same as a ground war. n/t ProSense Sep 2013 #72

Wowza! That's Baghdad Bob territory. cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #79

"The phrase 'ground war' is not part of this OP" ProSense Sep 2013 #83

On who's part? Fuddnik Sep 2013 #102

Love how you make shit up. tazkcmo Sep 2013 #187

Kerry Won�t Rule Out Ground Troops Ichingcarpenter Sep 2013 #96

Good point worth repeating: KERRY WON�T RULE OUT GROUND TROOPS AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2013 #105

But they aren't really ground troops tazkcmo Sep 2013 #189

Spinning like a tornado. Fuddnik Sep 2013 #77

Well that is exactly what Japan did at Pearl Harbor. zeemike Sep 2013 #154

It would be if it was our big building tazkcmo Sep 2013 #172

actually, pro, only a MORON or abject partisan APOLOGIST cali Sep 2013 #41

"No, drone strikes or cruise missiles are not the same as a ground war." ProSense Sep 2013 #55

But Kerry didn't say "ground war" tazkcmo Sep 2013 #192

Once we drop bombs, we are at "war" avaistheone1 Sep 2013 #104

You are haggling over mere semantics. Whether it's committing an act of war or going to war totodeinhere Sep 2013 #125

Blowing up people or things on another nation's soil is going to war. NuclearDem Sep 2013 #137

I hesitate to ask how you would define an act of sex. rug Sep 2013 #153

I'm sure he appreciates tazkcmo Sep 2013 #167

Yes. n/t tazkcmo Sep 2013 #170

Spin, Level: Noah Webster. nt Union Scribe Sep 2013 #234

I guess the "I was for it before I was against it" criticism had some validity. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2013 #17

Kerry does such a good job playing the peacenik, that I forget he's a big fraud. reformist2 Sep 2013 #19

Words are funny things, Mr. Kerry. Avalux Sep 2013 #21

So who decided that America has some fivine right to punish sovereign countries malaise Sep 2013 #25

You thought he has been speaking for someone/thing other than the administration? NCTraveler Sep 2013 #27

Sad indeed fadedrose Sep 2013 #28

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #224

I think it may have been Gen. Zini that mentioned that we're short on troops... fadedrose Sep 2013 #229

Attacking a sovereign nation's military and populace is NOT an act of war? Dawson Leery Sep 2013 #30

It's an act of...... (scrabbles through dictuionary, throws it away) PATRIOTISM. sibelian Sep 2013 #227

:headoven: WilliamPitt Sep 2013 #31

Kerry obviously has no respect for Americans if he thinks we'll LuvNewcastle Sep 2013 #32

Technically, Bush 43 didn't "go to war" with Iraq, either derby378 Sep 2013 #34

It was sure as hell "WAR!" when Iraq bombed the World Trade Center. MindPilot Sep 2013 #36

He sounds like Kissinger in fact Ichingcarpenter Sep 2013 #37

I have hated John Kerry since he refused to call out the Republicans' lies on the Iraq war. The Stranger Sep 2013 #38

Touche, Stranger Carolina Sep 2013 #75

I don't care what they want to call it... Triana Sep 2013 #39

Oh no! Where was this school tragedy :( Truthful, poignant rant Catherina Sep 2013 #94

Newtown... Triana Sep 2013 #134

Oh :( Catherina Sep 2013 #160

Righteous rant, Triana. Blue_In_AK Sep 2013 #178

I totally agree Oilwellian Sep 2013 #210

This should be an OP. Spot on. Celefin Sep 2013 #231

What happened to the John Kerry we once knew? Faryn Balyncd Sep 2013 #42

He voted for the Iraq war. same guy as always. JRLeft Sep 2013 #45

I was asking about this one: Faryn Balyncd Sep 2013 #54

He retired. JRLeft Sep 2013 #59

He got elected. tazkcmo Sep 2013 #193

Tell that to Cambodia. truebluegreen Sep 2013 #43

This message was self-deleted by its author roamer65 Sep 2013 #184

The hearing is an amazing display of HUBRIS... polichick Sep 2013 #46

there's a lot of stupid mixed in with the propaganda too. cali Sep 2013 #51

I just hope these events wake up some Dem voters. polichick Sep 2013 #61

what a load of Carolina Sep 2013 #48

Why not call it an joelz Sep 2013 #49

"We have to drop bombs on civilians to keep civilians from being killed" HooptieWagon Sep 2013 #56

I feel you are being deliberately obtuse. You know what he means and so do most other people. phleshdef Sep 2013 #57

+1 onenote Sep 2013 #67

I feel you are being deliberately weird. cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #74

Nope, not really. phleshdef Sep 2013 #81

The key phrase in your post is "Americans perceive". Dawgs Sep 2013 #93

Its not simple or black and white at all. phleshdef Sep 2013 #101

It could last, you know, six days, six weeks. I doubt six months. frylock Sep 2013 #99

That's the line that keeps running through my head... woo me with science Sep 2013 #115

Kerry is trying to semantic around his war crime in action. morningfog Sep 2013 #173

War crimes? Seriously? phleshdef Sep 2013 #209

Illegal acts of war are war crimes. morningfog Sep 2013 #220

He said it tazkcmo Sep 2013 #195

Using Pearl Harbor as an argument is downright idiotic. phleshdef Sep 2013 #212

Every bit as legitimate tazkcmo Sep 2013 #214

No, not even close. phleshdef Sep 2013 #215

This isn't about if we do or don't tazkcmo Sep 2013 #216

Except that Kerry admits he can't promise no boots Union Scribe Sep 2013 #238

And then he ruled them out like 5 minutes later. phleshdef Sep 2013 #240

Until he goes back on that again. Union Scribe Sep 2013 #241

I really don't care about John Kerry's train of thought problems. phleshdef Sep 2013 #243

It is just called an "Operation" now. The word "War" is just too generic. indie9197 Sep 2013 #62

Kinda like saying it's not rape if he just puts the tip in. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2013 #66

K&R EXCELLENT Carolina Sep 2013 #78

Brazen Orwellian bullshit. woo me with science Sep 2013 #70

And what if Assad sinks one of our ships in retaliation? Is it war then? Xithras Sep 2013 #73

And that is the $64,000.00 question warrant46 Sep 2013 #86

Range differential ....... oldhippie Sep 2013 #157

I realize that. Xithras Sep 2013 #206

That depends on what the meaning of the word "war" is. KamaAina Sep 2013 #76

Yes it is going to war, and I'm against it. Shrike47 Sep 2013 #80

It IS a War Crime, though. Demeter Sep 2013 #84

HAHA! Von Clauswitz: "War is thus an act of force to compel our enemy to do our will." grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #87

Kerry keeps referring to "the opposition" as if it was some cohesive whole cali Sep 2013 #89

I just know that somewhere in this thread, where I can't see it, is someone saying MisterP Sep 2013 #90

Kerry should, of all people, know better DissidentVoice Sep 2013 #95

Yes, Kerry is...increasingly embarrassing. What a farce. chimpymustgo Sep 2013 #97

Obama is not looking for a way out then? I had hoped he threw this in their court Jefferson23 Sep 2013 #98

interesting....putting the house in a bigger spot than what they are now madrchsod Sep 2013 #106

actually he's right-- it's terrorism.... mike_c Sep 2013 #108

Isn't the unprovoked dropping of BOMBS on the assets of a foreign country... bvar22 Sep 2013 #110

''Speaking of people who...... DeSwiss Sep 2013 #112

Really? Bombing other countries is not "Going to war"? AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2013 #116

Uh huh..sounds like 'we make our own reality' MichiganVote Sep 2013 #117

Maybe we could just drop Joe the liar Lieberman on Syria. JEB Sep 2013 #118

The John Kerry of 1971 is dead. Ken Burch Sep 2013 #120

Not for us. He'a actually right about that. But for the Syrians, well ... BlueStreak Sep 2013 #123

I think it has more to do with common usage - most short duration military actions are not called "w karynnj Sep 2013 #124

You are right (about the spelling) cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #156

That's easy to say when you're dropping the bombs Jack Rabbit Sep 2013 #131

The slippery slope. Once people rationalize the use of drone strikes, it easy to justify snagglepuss Sep 2013 #135

Ahahahaha LittleBlue Sep 2013 #136

Has he been talking to McCain? AsahinaKimi Sep 2013 #138

It ain't a welcome wagon either, Kerry! nt valerief Sep 2013 #147

What is it, random homicide performed by a state without authorization? rug Sep 2013 #151

Chris Murphy's comments are nice counterweight to Kerry's hysterical swipes Catherina Sep 2013 #161

Hey its all relative: compared to a nuclear strike (something the Isreali's have not taken off the.. marble falls Sep 2013 #162

I'm fairly certain that if another country decided to drop a bomb on one of our military bases, Blue_In_AK Sep 2013 #164

Kerry, making zero sense a few minutes ago. WMD mixing is so dishonest. Catherina Sep 2013 #169

Respectful, fuck you Secretary. morningfog Sep 2013 #171

Whatever, your ignorane is bliss I suppose.n/t wisteria Sep 2013 #175

An impressively disgraceful performance. cali Sep 2013 #179

WTF sulphurdunn Sep 2013 #181

... WTF?... idwiyo Sep 2013 #182

It is a war crime without UN approval. roamer65 Sep 2013 #186

GawdAlmighty!!! I read that subject line and I thought, "Is he all right? Maybe he has some truth2power Sep 2013 #191

Notice he says "OIHER countries"? But what if someone bombs the USA? 99th_Monkey Sep 2013 #194

We've sold Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Jordan skillions of $$$ worth of weapons. Flatulo Sep 2013 #198

If someone lobs a few in our country, we won't interpret it as an act of war, right, Mr. Secretary? CrispyQ Sep 2013 #208

If our government starts using WMDs on our own population... then no, it wouldn't be. phleshdef Sep 2013 #213

I get it. Because we used our WMD on other populations, we can still hold the moral high ground. CrispyQ Sep 2013 #230

No one had the balls to call us out on it. phleshdef Sep 2013 #232

So might makes right. Got it. --nt CrispyQ Sep 2013 #237

No. But the UN ignoring violations of the chemical weapons ban doesn't make right either. phleshdef Sep 2013 #239

More and more I come to realize he only looked good 'cause of who he was running against Scootaloo Sep 2013 #211

Wow n/t Catherina Sep 2013 #222

Bombs Are For Peace jsr Sep 2013 #225

Arc Light warrant46 Sep 2013 #257

He's making a fool of himself fujiyama Sep 2013 #228

Breathtaking doublespeak. I'm just stunned. myrna minx Sep 2013 #242

That pipeline must be damn vital, that's all I gotta say. nt silvershadow Sep 2013 #244

Never have I been as disappointed in two people in the post WWII-era as indepat Sep 2013 #247

Maybe all the botox he used to immobilize his face arikara Sep 2013 #249

WAR HAWK blkmusclmachine Sep 2013 #250

. darkangel218 Sep 2013 #267

'Going to,' maybe not.....'being at'....yeah, probably.... Wounded Bear Sep 2013 #251

'Acts of War' only become war if they shoot back... n/t PoliticAverse Sep 2013 #252

Really? Then why did we go to Afghanistan after 9/11? Cleita Sep 2013 #253

Is that what we said when the germans bombed pearl harbor? liberal N proud Sep 2013 #255

Who bombed Pearl Harbor? Cleita Sep 2013 #263

I know, I was just doing my belishi imitation liberal N proud Sep 2013 #264

Hookay! Cleita Sep 2013 #265

Talk about losing your credibility. CanonRay Sep 2013 #259

Killing is war bobclark86 Sep 2013 #260

I'm still gaping at his "Arab nations will pay for our invasion" DirkGently Sep 2013 #266