Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: Andrew Weil, his woo, and anti-GMO hysteria... [View all]roseBudd
(8,718 posts)129. I don't need to. I know all about Carman.
Another case of bad science.
But we know you won't read the following
http://www.biofortified.org/2013/06/pig-feeding-study-gmo/
The authors had some good ideas for their study, including using a relatively large number of pigs and keeping the experiment going for the normal lifespan of the pigs. However, as a crop scientist, I see too many problems with the sources of the GM and non-GM crops in the feed for me to say that the results are reliable. This is a shame, because a lot of pigs lost their lives here. I dont even think the meat from the animals could be eaten since so many of them were sick with pneumonia and who knows what else. Mortalities were incredibly high (13% for non-GM and 14% for GM), which is not within expected rates for US commercial piggeries (which are more like 5% or less EDIT: See comments for discussion of mortality rates), regardless of what the authors claim (without providing a reference).
We have to wonder what kind of animal husbandry issues were happening on the farm for so many animals to be so sick this is not normal.
I really wish that researchers like this would take the time to double-check their methods before doing the experiment. If theyd talked with a crop scientist like me, they would have learned that the potential for compositional differences was too high, and I could have recommended some ways to minimize those differences. It might take a little more time and money, but isnt it worth it to have good results, especially when so many lives are used in the testing?
Ideally, a feeding study like this would have controlled growing environments, genetic isolines, and testing of the grain. Some researchers use controlled environments and isolines, then only do a few composition tests to check for equivalence of nutrients, etc in the grain. If isolines are not available, one could do the study with a suite of comparator varieties instead of just one, then see if results of the GM are within the range of the non-GM varieties. The researchers did none of these.
The feed just was not similar enough to tell if any differences found in the animals was due to GM or something else entirely. This one flaw invalidates the entire study.
We have to wonder what kind of animal husbandry issues were happening on the farm for so many animals to be so sick this is not normal.
I really wish that researchers like this would take the time to double-check their methods before doing the experiment. If theyd talked with a crop scientist like me, they would have learned that the potential for compositional differences was too high, and I could have recommended some ways to minimize those differences. It might take a little more time and money, but isnt it worth it to have good results, especially when so many lives are used in the testing?
Ideally, a feeding study like this would have controlled growing environments, genetic isolines, and testing of the grain. Some researchers use controlled environments and isolines, then only do a few composition tests to check for equivalence of nutrients, etc in the grain. If isolines are not available, one could do the study with a suite of comparator varieties instead of just one, then see if results of the GM are within the range of the non-GM varieties. The researchers did none of these.
The feed just was not similar enough to tell if any differences found in the animals was due to GM or something else entirely. This one flaw invalidates the entire study.
http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/consumer/gmfood/Pages/Detailed-commentary-.aspx
Detailed comment on Carman et al (2013): study design and conduct
Given the authors claim that effects of the GM diet include gastroenteric effects and effects on the female reproductive system, it is surprising that the mycotoxin assays did not include trichothecenes, which could cause gastroenteric inflammation, and zearalenone, which has oestrogenic effects. Trichothecenes and zearalenone are common contaminants in grain-based animal feeds in the Midwest of the United States.
There is a lack of information on the composition of the control (non-GM) and GM diets. This does not allow the impact of other dietary factors, unrelated to the GM trait, to be excluded.
Only a single GM diet was used which precludes the possibility of determining if a dose-response relationship exists.
No analyses were done to confirm that the particle size of the diets was equivalent. This is surprising given the authors themselves noted that the gastric mucosa of pigs is very sensitive to the particle size of the diet.
The group sizes are very large (14 followed by 42) which makes any calculation of feed intake subject to large uncertainty.
Mortalities in both groups are extremely high by industry standards. This suggests there may have been confounding stressors affecting the pigs.
There is no apparent reason as to why the intestines were not weighed. Failure to examine the mucosa of the intestines, and the intestinal contents, is also a major deficiency. If the pigs had been suffering blood loss from gastric ulcers for some time, as the authors seem to believe, then this might be evident in rectal contents, so these should have been examined.
The authors claim that the stomachs showed inflammation based on the presence of hyperaemia (reddening) but have failed to establish that inflammation was present because there is no histopathology. Inflammation can only be confirmed by demonstrating the infiltration of inflammatory cells (leukocytes such as polymorph neutrophils, lymphocytes and macrophages). The rugae (internal folds) of the stomach of the GM-fed pigs do not appear to be swollen relative to those in the stomach of the non-GM pig. If there was genuine inflammation, oedema, leukocyte infiltration and fibrosis would cause obviously thickened rugae.
The mean stomach-to-body weight ratio of the GM-fed pigs is reported to be comparable to that of the non-GM fed pigs, yet if the GM-fed pigs had been suffering gastric inflammation for weeks, oedema, infiltration of inflammatory cells (leukocytes) and fibrosis would be expected, and these changes are likely to lead to a significant increase in stomach weight, relative to body weight.
Given that the pigs identified as B15, D22 and C34 (stomachs photographed in Figure 1) were given the same diet of GM food, the difference in gross appearance between their stomachs is considerable. Acute stress can cause hyperaemia of the gastric mucosa therefore this study may have been confounded by the stress of fasting and slaughter. Pigs become very agitated and stressed if they see or hear other pigs in the same pen being stunned for slaughter. Thus it would be important to know the order of slaughter relative to the severity of gastric hyperaemia, and whether the pigs had seen other pigs stunned before they were themselves stunned, but this information is not provided.
It is unfortunate that regional lymph nodes were not collected since if the stomachs are really inflamed, the draining lymph nodes should also be enlarged and reactive, relative to those of control pigs.
It is surprising that the observed inflammation did not affect feed intake, feed conversion ratio or final body weight. Trichothecenes, for example, cause a dramatic decline in feed intake in association with gastrointestinal erosions.
Given that the authors attribute ulceration to the GM feed, it is surprising that haematological parameters (haematocrit, red cell count, reticulocyte count, MCV, MCH, MCHC, RDW, WBC and differential count) were not determined. The authors acknowledge in the discussion that haematology could be informative, but do not explain why it was not done on this study.
FSANZ disagrees with the authors statement that standard haematology and serology provide poor measure[s] of inflammation. On the contrary, white cell count and differential are very sensitive measures of inflammation while fibrinogen, total proteins and albumin:globulin ratio are very frequently informative and sufficiently sensitive.
Given the authors claim that effects of the GM diet include gastroenteric effects and effects on the female reproductive system, it is surprising that the mycotoxin assays did not include trichothecenes, which could cause gastroenteric inflammation, and zearalenone, which has oestrogenic effects. Trichothecenes and zearalenone are common contaminants in grain-based animal feeds in the Midwest of the United States.
There is a lack of information on the composition of the control (non-GM) and GM diets. This does not allow the impact of other dietary factors, unrelated to the GM trait, to be excluded.
Only a single GM diet was used which precludes the possibility of determining if a dose-response relationship exists.
No analyses were done to confirm that the particle size of the diets was equivalent. This is surprising given the authors themselves noted that the gastric mucosa of pigs is very sensitive to the particle size of the diet.
The group sizes are very large (14 followed by 42) which makes any calculation of feed intake subject to large uncertainty.
Mortalities in both groups are extremely high by industry standards. This suggests there may have been confounding stressors affecting the pigs.
There is no apparent reason as to why the intestines were not weighed. Failure to examine the mucosa of the intestines, and the intestinal contents, is also a major deficiency. If the pigs had been suffering blood loss from gastric ulcers for some time, as the authors seem to believe, then this might be evident in rectal contents, so these should have been examined.
The authors claim that the stomachs showed inflammation based on the presence of hyperaemia (reddening) but have failed to establish that inflammation was present because there is no histopathology. Inflammation can only be confirmed by demonstrating the infiltration of inflammatory cells (leukocytes such as polymorph neutrophils, lymphocytes and macrophages). The rugae (internal folds) of the stomach of the GM-fed pigs do not appear to be swollen relative to those in the stomach of the non-GM pig. If there was genuine inflammation, oedema, leukocyte infiltration and fibrosis would cause obviously thickened rugae.
The mean stomach-to-body weight ratio of the GM-fed pigs is reported to be comparable to that of the non-GM fed pigs, yet if the GM-fed pigs had been suffering gastric inflammation for weeks, oedema, infiltration of inflammatory cells (leukocytes) and fibrosis would be expected, and these changes are likely to lead to a significant increase in stomach weight, relative to body weight.
Given that the pigs identified as B15, D22 and C34 (stomachs photographed in Figure 1) were given the same diet of GM food, the difference in gross appearance between their stomachs is considerable. Acute stress can cause hyperaemia of the gastric mucosa therefore this study may have been confounded by the stress of fasting and slaughter. Pigs become very agitated and stressed if they see or hear other pigs in the same pen being stunned for slaughter. Thus it would be important to know the order of slaughter relative to the severity of gastric hyperaemia, and whether the pigs had seen other pigs stunned before they were themselves stunned, but this information is not provided.
It is unfortunate that regional lymph nodes were not collected since if the stomachs are really inflamed, the draining lymph nodes should also be enlarged and reactive, relative to those of control pigs.
It is surprising that the observed inflammation did not affect feed intake, feed conversion ratio or final body weight. Trichothecenes, for example, cause a dramatic decline in feed intake in association with gastrointestinal erosions.
Given that the authors attribute ulceration to the GM feed, it is surprising that haematological parameters (haematocrit, red cell count, reticulocyte count, MCV, MCH, MCHC, RDW, WBC and differential count) were not determined. The authors acknowledge in the discussion that haematology could be informative, but do not explain why it was not done on this study.
FSANZ disagrees with the authors statement that standard haematology and serology provide poor measure[s] of inflammation. On the contrary, white cell count and differential are very sensitive measures of inflammation while fibrinogen, total proteins and albumin:globulin ratio are very frequently informative and sufficiently sensitive.
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
Recommendations
0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):
363 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
There are plenty of scientificallly illiterate people who don't believe in reality
roseBudd
Sep 2013
#141
There is "no till" organic and the idea that GMO farming reduces carbon emissions is bogus since
KurtNYC
Sep 2013
#279
My mother is alive thanks to multiple meds for atrial fibrillation & high BP...
roseBudd
Sep 2013
#123
Um ... why did you have high blood pressure and need 5 bypasses in the first place?
MH1
Sep 2013
#136
...henceforth identified as POO (corporate "science" & allied mega-funded corporate propaganda)
Berlum
Sep 2013
#92
LOL, so because you can't see the relationship it doesn't exist. Mkay. nt
laundry_queen
Sep 2013
#133
Is there any credible evidence that GMO food poses a legitimate health risk?
Gravitycollapse
Sep 2013
#16
Yeah...I was told the same thing about my kid's autism by the anti-vaxxers. I'll pass. nt
msanthrope
Sep 2013
#47
To be clear, you are suggesting that there is NO research proving that GMO is BAD for people...
truebrit71
Sep 2013
#189
Please answer my question. You are saying that there are no ill-effects to GMO at all...
truebrit71
Sep 2013
#194
Again, try Google, I neither have the time, nor the inclination to school yet another...
truebrit71
Sep 2013
#299
I may not agree with many coporations business practices such as Monsanto but I do not
liberal_at_heart
Sep 2013
#19
So you think that there's a cartel of organic producers..furtively plotting the demise of the poor..
truebrit71
Sep 2013
#198
Do you think there's some magic that prevents Monsanto from buying organic companies? (nt)
jeff47
Sep 2013
#254
do you approve of monsanto going after farmers whose fields MONSANTO has contaminated, suing
niyad
Sep 2013
#42
that is the funniest thing I have read today. PLEASE tell me you forgot the sarcasm icon, because
niyad
Sep 2013
#115
GMOs harm the intestines of the animals who eat it. Ask the farmers who've taken sick animals off it
Precisely
Sep 2013
#97
We should do both. But Ted Kennedy fought for decades to have better labeling and in the end,
pnwmom
Sep 2013
#284
At the time I was diagnosed, it took the average Celiac 11 years to get diagnosed.
pnwmom
Sep 2013
#306
But if we don't know an ingredient is in our food, there's NO chance of linking
pnwmom
Sep 2013
#356
As a personal friend of Dr. Weil, I call LIAR on that article. Why post this BS?
Coyotl
Sep 2013
#33
I know, Monsanto and GMO are awesome and safe. Roundup - I love spraying it right from the bottle..
tenderfoot
Sep 2013
#221
Union of concerned scientists... sounds like the concerned women of America.
tenderfoot
Sep 2013
#295
no, because you are threatening THEIR scientifically-based beliefs. no evidence to the contrary
niyad
Sep 2013
#41
to all who defend gmo food, answer this: if this genetic tinkering is NOT dangerous,
niyad
Sep 2013
#43
They don't want the labeling because they know that consumers don't want these products.
Gormy Cuss
Sep 2013
#44
there's propaganda on both sides. It's impossible to know the truth. Real scientific research
liberal_at_heart
Sep 2013
#73
amazingly enough, some of us actually KNOW what ascorbic acid is, and sodium chloride, but nice
niyad
Sep 2013
#116
since I have neither used that word, nor posted pictures, that remark cannot possibly be addressed
niyad
Sep 2013
#140
so GMO foods would fail in the marketplace- or be niche- like organics are. Sounds fair to me.
bettyellen
Sep 2013
#150
oh bullshit. labeling is there for consumer to use to make decisions and there is no good reason to
bettyellen
Sep 2013
#175
in other words, you don't HAVE an answer that doesn't involve huge wads of money, yes?
niyad
Sep 2013
#319
The studies don't support his views. Your anecdotal evidence is the worst kind
roseBudd
Sep 2013
#149
So you hate GMO’s because they are untested. What about feelbetteramine from the health store?
roseBudd
Sep 2013
#131
DU has become the go-to place for assinine Rightwing propaganda. "anti-GMO hysteria" my ass. nt
Romulox
Sep 2013
#147
Certainly a phrase the Monsanto PR department would approve of -- or perhaps authored
villager
Sep 2013
#176
I'm not denying science. And neither is Don Huber, retired Agri prof. at Purdue University
pnwmom
Sep 2013
#170
So GMO's are actually great, and all of the countries that have banned them have been snookered...
truebrit71
Sep 2013
#223
Right. Personal comments are so much more useful than actual logic or data. n/t
pnwmom
Sep 2013
#266
Your only contribution to a reasoned discussion was a link to an industry site.
pnwmom
Sep 2013
#277
IF GMO'S WERE GOOD FOR YOU - THEY WOULD WANT THEM TO BE LABELED! Not going in my body.
grahamhgreen
Sep 2013
#195
You clearly did not read the links I posted to sites that actually dig into the science.
HuckleB
Sep 2013
#247
So you think you can push crap upon others and then make excuses when they point that it's crap.
HuckleB
Sep 2013
#268
You haven't read it, but offer your opinion...tell me again how I'M the one that's full of crap...
truebrit71
Sep 2013
#289
As previously stated the site can be whatever it wants, the report, with it's SCIENCE...
truebrit71
Sep 2013
#294
Can't answer my question? If it was good for you - they would want it to be labeled, heck, they'd
grahamhgreen
Sep 2013
#241
HAHAHA. You're not to be taken seriously then. That was a reply, not an answer.
grahamhgreen
Sep 2013
#250
You failed to write science in all caps and therefore didn't convince me!!!11!!
Democracyinkind
Sep 2013
#318
So all these people pushing fear without evidence to justify fear aren't pushing fear?
HuckleB
Sep 2013
#345
Where is the independent study showing that GMO food causes long term harm?
Glassunion
Sep 2013
#324
The problem with that equation is that hybridization only happens via genetic modification.
HuckleB
Sep 2013
#331
Thus, you admit that don't understand how biology, chemistry and genetics work.
HuckleB
Sep 2013
#334
You're offering up a very simplistic definition that ignores how those things happen.
HuckleB
Sep 2013
#344
If you can't explain it simply, you probably don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein
Glassunion
Sep 2013
#348
That the shills for the chem-companies don't want labels tells you everything you need to know.
Romulox
Sep 2013
#346