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LWolf

(46,179 posts)
33. Okay.
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 04:31 PM
Sep 2013

It will HAVE to come from outside the system. This is a hot-button issue; so many families, community members, and those inside the system have an emotional (and illogical) investment in that pledge.

I can't advocate from inside. I have to follow my superiors' directions, which includes taking part in the pledge every day. So I stand silently while the school recites, which anyone is allowed to do if they want to abstain.

When my students ask me why I'm not saying it, I reply, "I've said it before. As far as I'm concerned, if I pledge my loyalty, I don't need to do it again unless someone thinks I'm faithless or a liar. If I'm either of those things, saying it every day isn't going to make me any different. I either mean it or I don't."

I don't tell them that I don't mean it. I don't pledge loyalty to a government. My loyalty belongs to people and to ideals and principles.

As far as I'm concerned, striking out "under god" isn't enough. We shouldn't be conditioning children to recite loyalty oaths at all. It's nationalistic propaganda that trains people to automatically support a government that may or may not deserve their support, and conditions them to support that flag and that nation in repeated wars.

But maybe getting rid of "under god" is a good beginning.

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I'm all for it. School is about education, not ingraining loyalty to the state NuclearDem Sep 2013 #1
Schools have nothing to do with education. hobbit709 Sep 2013 #8
Correction: schools SHOULD be about education. NuclearDem Sep 2013 #22
Well put. .... spin Sep 2013 #69
I swore allegiance to the Constitution when I was inducted into the military in the early '70s . . . Journeyman Sep 2013 #2
Well said. n/t Laelth Sep 2013 #4
Interesting history at link PADemD Sep 2013 #3
As I understand the original purpose of the pledge ... Laelth Sep 2013 #5
If you really want to piss off a RWer, tell them it was written by a Socialist. hobbit709 Sep 2013 #9
Precisely. n/t Laelth Sep 2013 #13
Not true. The Pledge was in response to the Chicago Worlds Fair pitbullgirl1965 Sep 2013 #37
Tell them anyway. truebluegreen Sep 2013 #41
I don't believe in some stupid fundamentalist/literalist/politicized notion of "God". delrem Sep 2013 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #12
Because the pledge isn't to the Planet Earth, it's to the US republic. delrem Sep 2013 #16
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #25
I don't think it necessarily does. delrem Sep 2013 #42
then change it to Goddess and see how many evangelical Christian heads explode. liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #43
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #45
You're just insulting. No other content. delrem Sep 2013 #50
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #52
That's a valid argument. delrem Sep 2013 #56
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #58
And what makes you imagine that I'm such a "true believer". delrem Sep 2013 #60
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #64
I did NOT argue in favor of the existence of a "soul" or "spirit". delrem Sep 2013 #66
and to imply anything other than that is a provocation. liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #54
But that has no meaning except to be provocative. delrem Sep 2013 #46
Give me a break. I'm not buying it. Fundamentalist Christians want to be able to worship in liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #49
The US Pledge of allegiance isn't a prayer, it isn't an act of worship. delrem Sep 2013 #62
If you think you have a reasonable argument you are fooling yourself. liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #63
The fact that you seem to be calling folks who object to the word "God" in the pledge Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #44
I most certainly did not! delrem Sep 2013 #48
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #51
yeah it sounded like a veiled dig to me. If you don't believe in a spirit or soul you can't have liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #53
That's not what I said. delrem Sep 2013 #59
It is not your so called connotations that is offensive. It is the fact that the people who believe liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #61
What is it that is hurt by "connotations". After all, such "connotations" aren't material. delrem Sep 2013 #55
"People must have a soul because if people didn't have a soul they wouldn't be people", QED Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #57
Where are you from? oberliner Sep 2013 #76
Just Take the God Part Out charlives Sep 2013 #7
Welcome to DU. n/t Laelth Sep 2013 #14
Well, as long as they dont really understand what they are saying quakerboy Sep 2013 #75
I'd prefer more time devoted to teaching critical thinking, and less to pledging blindly to ANYTHING Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #10
Yes.... get rid of the Socialist propaganda whistler162 Sep 2013 #11
I too went to catholic school and did the same thing. ejpoeta Sep 2013 #15
US used Nazi-type salute during pledge of allegiance until 1942 Divernan Sep 2013 #17
Technically it's the Roman Salute telclaven Sep 2013 #72
No, historians disagreewith that explanation. It came from the U.S. Divernan Sep 2013 #74
even as a kid, i never saw the point of saying it every damn day. KG Sep 2013 #18
My daughter came up with a great idea. kag Sep 2013 #19
Lots of kids just stand and say nothing. Igel Sep 2013 #20
Or their religion forbids it. hunter Sep 2013 #24
I've come to really respect Jehovah's witnesses. Their belief in not accepting blood liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #47
I have had JW kids in my class and they never say the pledge and arely staircase Sep 2013 #77
Vowing unquestioning allegiance to anything DirkGently Sep 2013 #21
Especially when you demand it from six year old children Mr.Bill Sep 2013 #31
Yeah. Seems more like brainwashing. DirkGently Sep 2013 #34
It is a forced loyalty oath Mr.Bill Sep 2013 #36
Training children to kneel before an Authority DirkGently Sep 2013 #70
I always think of .. Bigmack Sep 2013 #23
I was a brat, I came up with alternative lyrics to both Warpy Sep 2013 #26
When I went to school, the pledge didn't mention God. Cleita Sep 2013 #27
Remember that the Pledge wasn't originally made with your hand over your heart... backscatter712 Sep 2013 #28
The pledge feels very Prussian LittleBlue Sep 2013 #29
"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2013 #30
I remember standing and saying the Jenoch Sep 2013 #32
Okay. LWolf Sep 2013 #33
I agree, but this is about #5,879 on my priority list. Quantess Sep 2013 #35
I resented the "under God" part. pitbullgirl1965 Sep 2013 #38
I agree gopiscrap Sep 2013 #39
I had no problem spending 8 years in Catholic school as an atheist bhikkhu Sep 2013 #40
When my daughter became atheist she stopped saying Under God. The more she liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #65
I find the Pledge to be ludicrous. Live and Learn Sep 2013 #67
+1 forestpath Sep 2013 #78
"I spread the peaches....." DFW Sep 2013 #68
Matt Groening's version FSogol Sep 2013 #71
It should be changed to "I pledge allegiance to the United States of America". FarCenter Sep 2013 #73
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