General Discussion

pampango

(24,692 posts)

75. Human Rights Watch, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and others all know Assad's forces did it.

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:22 PM

Sep 2013

Those who do not want to "know" something will never "know" it. If the UN were to determine the regime's responsibility, there would still be some who do not "know" who was responsible.

Tea party types will never "know" there is global warming, because they do not want it to be true. They will never "know" that Obamacare is good for the country (if it proves to be) because they do not want it to be true. The same is true with progressive taxes, corporate regulation, immigration reform and others. They know what policy they favor and evidence either fits into their world view or it is rejected, so they never "know" anything that is inconsistent with the policy they support.

But with respect to Syria, responsibility for the chemical attack is not the only issue here. The real issue is what, if anything, can be done about it and what role the US, the UN and other countries should play in that response or lack thereof.

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The knee-jerk dismissal (by some) of Putin's remarks is so drearily typical of the 'Ugly American' [View all] markpkessinger Sep 2013 OP

I think it's time to roll the credits on this whole "American Exceptionalism" thingy Taverner Sep 2013 #1

Yup I agree gopiscrap Sep 2013 #2

I heard the next OpEd will be written by Kim Jong Un trumad Sep 2013 #3

For real. nt onehandle Sep 2013 #6

It's like Charles Manson telling us we should all love one another. zappaman Sep 2013 #113

We should love one another and it doesn't matter if Charlie or Jesus said it. 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #115

It's called being a fucking hypocrite. zappaman Sep 2013 #118

It's also fair to point out that the message is right no matter who said it. n/t totodeinhere Sep 2013 #124

Putin's message is not right. zappaman Sep 2013 #125

So you support the concept of American exceptionalism? totodeinhere Sep 2013 #131

OK, point by point pick them out. 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #150

Actually if the message is right its unfair to denigrate it with pointless assertions 1-Old-Man Sep 2013 #149

I agree. He wouldn't stop being Charlie Manson, but he would still be right. n/t Raksha Sep 2013 #126

if you're buying what putin is selling, warrior1 Sep 2013 #4

Did you actually read the OP, or are you reacting to the headline? markpkessinger Sep 2013 #10

I understand Hitler loved milk Trajan Sep 2013 #110

Um; he's saying the exact opposite robbob Sep 2013 #120

Hitler was against smoking, and for economical cars with good mpg markiv Sep 2013 #134

that's personality-ism markiv Sep 2013 #16

Personality-ism = red herring argument, "kill the messenger," etc. Raksha Sep 2013 #122

'Until, I could care less what he has to say' markiv Sep 2013 #24

McCain and Boehner agree with you Capt. Obvious Sep 2013 #46

This message was self-deleted by its author totodeinhere Sep 2013 #127

McCain was pushing for an even more aggressive military action than the one the President opposed markpkessinger Sep 2013 #173

McCain: Putin�s Op-Ed Insults Americans� Intelligence Capt. Obvious Sep 2013 #198

I'm gay. sibelian Sep 2013 #68

You should write old Vlad a letter... bunnies Sep 2013 #107

I am gay also . . .` markpkessinger Sep 2013 #170

What a stupid comment mindwalker_i Sep 2013 #100

Yep. There is a faction of duers who still buy into the USA! USA! USA! quinnox Sep 2013 #5

They serve to counterbalance the "AmeriKKKa is the most destructive empire in history" crowd. Throd Sep 2013 #44

Is there really something so leftynyc Sep 2013 #74

Certainly seems that way, doesnt it. bunnies Sep 2013 #109

What does the rejection of American exceptionalism have to do with loving our country? Raksha Sep 2013 #137

I guess I wasn't raised that way leftynyc Sep 2013 #140

one can have pride heaven05 Sep 2013 #204

Nailed It! bvar22 Sep 2013 #205

Jingoistic, mindless nationalism: Raksha Sep 2013 #133

I seriously have no idea what leftynyc Sep 2013 #142

Sorry - I guess my use of "jingoism" is a bit dated, and dates me. Raksha Sep 2013 #148

I should have been more clear leftynyc Sep 2013 #151

I can't speak for anyone but myself, obviously, but is there some reason we can't do both? Raksha Sep 2013 #159

I'm so with you on the leftynyc Sep 2013 #196

Stalin's ghost appears to Putin in a dream, and Putin asks for his help running the country. snooper2 Sep 2013 #7

Good joke Capt. Obvious Sep 2013 #49

Yup, pro-Putin propaganda is good. ProSense Sep 2013 #8

Another person who posted in response to my headline, without reading the OP markpkessinger Sep 2013 #12

The op-ed is pro-Putin propaganda ProSense Sep 2013 #27

Some of it is no doubt self-serving BS . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #32

Right, and everyone should have jump up and applauded "self-serving BS" ProSense Sep 2013 #41

What next...why don't we listen to the "substance" of what Rand Paul says? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #78

Why not? If he is against NSA spying on Americans, does that mean I have to be for it? eridani Sep 2013 #195

Still have no idea why the Op at your link is relevant to anything! Vinnie From Indy Sep 2013 #25

considering that you are the ultimate propagandist noiretextatique Sep 2013 #43

Putin is the Professor, Obama is Gilligan markiv Sep 2013 #9

Yea... The "Professor" who really puts Teh Gays in their place farmbo Sep 2013 #112

or, Putin = Marcia, Obama = Jan markiv Sep 2013 #130

That Mussolini guy wasn't so bad..... Fastcars Sep 2013 #11

And the U.S. is all sweetness and light n/t markpkessinger Sep 2013 #15

Putin is not a "critic" BeyondGeography Sep 2013 #13

Fine . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #19

Blaming the gas attack on the rebels and saying their next target is Israel. nt geek tragedy Sep 2013 #39

+1 JustAnotherGen Sep 2013 #77

Please see my clarification at #165 below . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #171

Balderdash. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #175

My problem with Putin's piece in the NYT today cali Sep 2013 #14

On that point I agree with you . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #21

then there's that "one point" you were asking for... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #81

You are attributing a phrase to me that I never used . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #193

You can hate the messenger...Putin is indeed a putz...but.. joeybee12 Sep 2013 #17

That is the point precisely! n/t markpkessinger Sep 2013 #23

worst of all, it's Fascism that is parasitic markiv Sep 2013 #31

Great point, and often overlooked. Raksha Sep 2013 #162

Yup 2naSalit Sep 2013 #146

Simple minds seek simple answers! Vinnie From Indy Sep 2013 #18

Although, the "criticize America first" & "America is always wrong" crowds are pretty tiresome too. FSogol Sep 2013 #20

You can't be serious . . .. markpkessinger Sep 2013 #22

True, as a nation, but individuals? Just look around you. n/t FSogol Sep 2013 #26

Substituting the citizenry for the nation itself when the nation's actions are criticised sibelian Sep 2013 #69

Rhetoric! I was talking about constant criticism of the nation. n/t FSogol Sep 2013 #71

NSA spying and Syria warmongering in the space of one month markiv Sep 2013 #135

'loath to engage in any kind of honest self-examination ' markiv Sep 2013 #29

sounds like faux news noiretextatique Sep 2013 #50

Rush Limbaugh is really offended by the OpEd. JohnnyLib2 Sep 2013 #28

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #30

and our country spys on/gives it's citizen's jobs/livelyhoods away wholesale markiv Sep 2013 #37

You think Putin DOESN'T Do that? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #84

i was talking what i know about our country, not what i dont know about theirs markiv Sep 2013 #91

Putin was KGB treestar Sep 2013 #157

and Bush Sr was CIA markiv Sep 2013 #160

We just had a hunger strike in California nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #73

Putin will fix a nice cup of radioactive tea for his detractors... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #85

For all of our faults, I believe we are an exceptional nation. OregonBlue Sep 2013 #33

Huh. Would you say God favors us, in some way? quinnox Sep 2013 #40

Who said anything about god? I just believe we are an exceptional country. I travel a lot for my OregonBlue Sep 2013 #51

exceptional...how? noiretextatique Sep 2013 #45

The very fact that we are even on this board says a lot. There are many places in the world where OregonBlue Sep 2013 #62

But we are not exceptional nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #70

thank you for answering noiretextatique Sep 2013 #94

I wish I could travel abroad more often to be honest nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #95

Thanks OregonBlue.. Glad your son is getting help. Cha Sep 2013 #174

There are many places where this discussion would not be permitted . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #192

I'll take the word of my President over warrior1 Sep 2013 #34

Obama just defended NSA spying and tried to involve us in another ME war markiv Sep 2013 #42

but...he's evil noiretextatique Sep 2013 #55

Putin = professor, Obama = Gilligan markiv Sep 2013 #58

You can make that moronic analogy leftynyc Sep 2013 #79

Putin=Mr. Roper , Obama Jack Tripper n/t Tveil Sep 2013 #80

Dmitry Medvedev = Mr. Firley Capt. Obvious Sep 2013 #97

Your post = the ship wreck phleshdef Sep 2013 #89

That is such BS. WCLinolVir Sep 2013 #93

sarcasm, newbie noiretextatique Sep 2013 #102

I'm in agreement with your replies...and on this one in snappyturtle Sep 2013 #66

and our recent public 2naSalit Sep 2013 #152

An evil man like Putin nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #65

I don't think you'll find many of us here think that "we inhabit some lofty moral plane (plain?). pampango Sep 2013 #35

You believe that the rebels were responsible for the gas attack and that their geek tragedy Sep 2013 #36

I don't know who was responsible . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #48

The major point of his essay was Syria, and his dishonest blaming geek tragedy Sep 2013 #56

do you know for sure who did the gassing? noiretextatique Sep 2013 #57

Every credible analysis points at the Syrian government. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #61

credible analysts are wrong on occasion noiretextatique Sep 2013 #83

Actually, all the credible analysts said Bush was full of shit. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #88

who benefits? noiretextatique Sep 2013 #98

"cui bono" is speculation, not evidence. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #99

no conclusive evidence yet, is there? noiretextatique Sep 2013 #103

The rockets used to deliver the sarin are in the government's arsenal, not the rebels' nt geek tragedy Sep 2013 #104

ok nt noiretextatique Sep 2013 #105

If you depend on the US Intelligence Agencies bvar22 Sep 2013 #119

You mean like this credible analysis? Raksha Sep 2013 #145

Not a credible analysis--essentially rumor-mongering by people geek tragedy Sep 2013 #147

Human Rights Watch, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and others all know Assad's forces did it. pampango Sep 2013 #75

responsibility for the chemical attack is not the only issue here noiretextatique Sep 2013 #82

I agree. As I said, "But with respect to Syria, responsibility for the chemical attack is not the pampango Sep 2013 #123

i'm afraid of that noiretextatique Sep 2013 #132

Remember when the USA blasted the CHEMICAL AGENT ORANGE on Vietman. Sequoia Sep 2013 #128

His 'concern' about interference in other countries without UN approval is hypocritical muriel_volestrangler Sep 2013 #38

so, he's no different than our leaders noiretextatique Sep 2013 #47

No, I would say he's more violent muriel_volestrangler Sep 2013 #54

Incorrect. Those rebels moved to expand Georgian territory into S Ossetia first Deny and Shred Sep 2013 #206

South Ossetia in in Georgia, not Russia muriel_volestrangler Sep 2013 #207

The independent republic was formed in 2008, with US help. Deny and Shred Sep 2013 #208

Again, South Ossetia is in Georgia, as that article notes muriel_volestrangler Sep 2013 #210

Both were disputed territories Deny and Shred Sep 2013 #211

You said "Those rebels moved to expand Georgian territory into S Ossetia first" muriel_volestrangler Sep 2013 #212

Right, disputed. 'rebels ... wanting independence.' Deny and Shred Sep 2013 #213

He said there was no proof Assad released chemical weapons BainsBane Sep 2013 #52

I don't know any rah! rah! HappyMe Sep 2013 #53

The Cultists make every issue about personalities kenny blankenship Sep 2013 #59

I agree, and even if he wrote this at 4th grade level, nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #60

Wow, I think you nailed it with this one! quinnox Sep 2013 #63

Well, thank you nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #67

+1 leftstreet Sep 2013 #86

Thank you alcina Sep 2013 #138

You welcome nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #139

+1 Thank you n/t Catherina Sep 2013 #177

If Pat Robertson said he was in favor of gay rights, would you sing his praises? randome Sep 2013 #64

Characterizing my post as "singing Putin's praises" is grossly dishonest . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #169

The replies in the thread highlight your point Hydra Sep 2013 #72

Yes, they do nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #153

American Exceptionalism is like cancer. dgibby Sep 2013 #76

What planet do you live on? WCLinolVir Sep 2013 #87

If theres some criticism we need to hear, it needs to come from a credible messenger. phleshdef Sep 2013 #90

The thing is, I'm not sure a messenger exists who would be deemed sufficiently credible . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #191

American exceptionalism. Rex Sep 2013 #92

Sorry. We don't need to be lectured to by the Kremlin. n/t pnwmom Sep 2013 #96

I haven't read Putin's remarks, JoeyT Sep 2013 #101

Putin is not hypocrite Kuroneko Sep 2013 #106

don't let assad paint a picture of putin in panties or sing a song putin hates or he's toast. Sunlei Sep 2013 #108

Good post. wouldsman Sep 2013 #111

I agree with you and the OP. ocpagu Sep 2013 #116

+1. And how sad that is n/t Catherina Sep 2013 #179

That's the truth. nt laundry_queen Sep 2013 #194

'tis BlancheSplanchnik Sep 2013 #114

America. Where "lofty moral plane" = Drone. n/t jtuck004 Sep 2013 #117

The talking point of the GOP is to be nauseated.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #121

Boehner says he is insulted by Putin's remarks. totodeinhere Sep 2013 #129

Like many here, the Speaker belongs at the children's table nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #136

That's a childish remark itself muriel_volestrangler Sep 2013 #163

I don't dosmiss all of Putin's claims, I dismiss Putin as a valid messenger. DrewFlorida Sep 2013 #141

With you, but the adults are having a fruitful nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #144

As opposed to knee-jerk dismissals of anything the U.S. President says as a bunch of lies. CakeGrrl Sep 2013 #143

"Ugly American" here. FUck Putin, and all who celebrate him. It's become quite creepy, the.... Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #154

Are we really so exceptional? totodeinhere Sep 2013 #156

All of that fades before treestar Sep 2013 #158

We should have both single payer health care and freedom of speech and association. totodeinhere Sep 2013 #161

Freedom of speech comes first treestar Sep 2013 #199

Why can't we have both freedom of speech AND health care like they do in totodeinhere Sep 2013 #209

Localities ban books in the US and Boston was the leader of book banning for years Bluenorthwest Sep 2013 #185

That is blatantly unconstitutional treestar Sep 2013 #200

Ask me that ridiculous question when you have to dodge daily car bombings, and can't find bread. Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #182

Of course we are not the worst country on the planet. Far from it. But when we talk about totodeinhere Sep 2013 #183

And the comparison is still....#1 economy, and last remaining Super Power, ALL DAY LONG!!! Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #184

#1 economy for the 1%. That doesn't help most of us one bit. The average American's totodeinhere Sep 2013 #186

Not a fan of the ridiculous wealth gap, but that's where Occupy was being useful, except they.... Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #188

"Latin America is but a cyst on the anus of the world." Tarheel Dem Bluenorthwest Sep 2013 #187

Some DUers come from Russia. Some come from North Korea. Some come from Iran. Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #189

We do when it comes to the First Amendment treestar Sep 2013 #155

I need to clarify something . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #164

Mark to the last point, it would also disqualify allies nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #165

Point taken! markpkessinger Sep 2013 #167

Putin risked his credibility by stating the opposition is behind the chemical attack. DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #172

Putin's primary argument in the Op-Ed is . . . markpkessinger Sep 2013 #176

The use of chemical weapons is a war crime, regardless of who used them DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #178

It is the 10th incident. Why now? nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #181

No, ProSense Sep 2013 #168

When your global approval level is in the teens, as Putin's is, people tend to dismiss anything you stevenleser Sep 2013 #202

Stating Americans are more defensive of attacks on their national character is a hilariously blind f Pretzel_Warrior Sep 2013 #166

They're missing the point by several miles -- perhaps intentionally. DirkGently Sep 2013 #180

Exactly! n/t markpkessinger Sep 2013 #190

You don't understand! It's simply not possible for anyone to be right on one subject-- eridani Sep 2013 #197

Putin and his words are held in very low regard globally. His global approval level is in the teens stevenleser Sep 2013 #201

Putin (Russia) is one of the few Allies the Assad Regime has. Progressive dog Sep 2013 #203