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Bernardo de La Paz

(60,320 posts)

121. If you keep knocking "collective responsibility for past crimes", it's as if you avoid real issues.

Sat Sep 14, 2013, 06:53 PM

Sep 2013

I'm not accusing you. Just a word to the wise to not get mistaken for someone like that by dwelling on the phrase and discussing only that aspect.

When the right wing and the teas shout about "reparations" and denounce "collective responsibility" for slavery, they have a small point, but they are happy to have the debate focus on the past so that they can avoid dealing with progressive solutions here and now. They are happy to debate history if they can avoid responsibility now for education, health care, affordable housing, drug treatment, veteran's benefits, and a dozen more areas where action here and now can have real results.

This is why I refuse to engage you on whether or not there is a "collective responsibility" for rapes that have already happened.

See my first reply to you in this thread (post #96) for things you can do. Progressive actions and speech and interventions are not vacuous statements. Being responsible is about seizing the moment when a chance comes your way.

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Hey guys let's support this message when it comes to rape [View all] Arcanetrance Sep 2013 OP

Speaking as a woman, Suich Sep 2013 #1

It needs to be posted we are the only ones that can stop rape Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #3

I don't rape and have never raped LittleBlue Sep 2013 #2

I've never raped either but it still remains fact the majority of rapists are male Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #5

I don't know how old you are, but I do think you may be misreading the demographics on DU a tad. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #8

I'm 26 I know there's a lot of guys my age here Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #11

Yeah, I mean "tell guys in the locker room and at the parties that rape isn't cool" Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #15

i dont know warren, how about TEACh our sons. since you are no longer of the age, it is time we seabeyond Sep 2013 #32

And what makes you think I don't? It's presumptuous to think that, isn't it? Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #43

YOU were whining about not being of the age or circumstance where anything would be relevant. seabeyond Sep 2013 #48

I 'get all whiney'? No, I don't. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #52

kinda like suggesting the message is men that have never raped need to call themselves rapist. seabeyond Sep 2013 #53

And again, that's something only imaginary straw Warren said. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #61

you were interpreting it another way warren, where you were opposed to the word "responsibility" so seabeyond Sep 2013 #66

I said I agreed with the OP. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #68

ya... right. go with the pictures now that you ran around in circles for a half hour seabeyond Sep 2013 #70

Hey, you're a bit younger than my son, JimboBillyBubbaBob Sep 2013 #27

Yeah because that was the intended message of this Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #47

There are men raising sons on this board BainsBane Sep 2013 #19

Like I said, I support the message that rape is unacceptable. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #24

Who said "that all men are responsible for rape"? Precisely Sep 2013 #31

the message says "it's time for us to take responsibility", which can be interpreted several ways. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #49

right warren cause the message would be asking men who NEVER raped to take responsibility for RAPE seabeyond Sep 2013 #51

isn't that what you did? Precisely Sep 2013 #54

Then let me say again, I think that men absolutely have a responsibility to spread the message that Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #57

people are asking for a step BEYOND a mere statement. nt seabeyond Sep 2013 #60

Please elaborate. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #62

Who doesn't know that?! Precisely Sep 2013 #63

According to some people in this thread, not knowing that is rampant. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #64

I think society in general participates in perpetuating rape culture BainsBane Sep 2013 #75

The demographics include plenty of fathers who should be educating their sons, pnwmom Sep 2013 #89

I can support the statement LittleBlue Sep 2013 #10

I believe it is the responsibility of a community and a civil society BrotherIvan Sep 2013 #20

Here it is Precisely Sep 2013 #33

Here's how it often plays out BainsBane Sep 2013 #21

None of that applies to me LittleBlue Sep 2013 #25

fuck fellow man... right? no skin off yoru nose. hey.. progressive board, democrats, any of this seabeyond Sep 2013 #35

I'm a progressive therefore LittleBlue Sep 2013 #91

you really have not read anyones post trying to educate you beyond your wrongness in interpretation, seabeyond Sep 2013 #94

I'm not in the least bit interested in LittleBlue Sep 2013 #119

i am well aware you will be the first to high five a sexist post. and that you are not the intended seabeyond Sep 2013 #122

Move Forward in the Now and the Future. "Collective responsibility" is for historians. Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #113

You aren't making any sense LittleBlue Sep 2013 #116

If you keep knocking "collective responsibility for past crimes", it's as if you avoid real issues. Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #121

Interesting game you play LittleBlue Sep 2013 #124

I never accused males of "collective responsibility". Not my game. Nor have I blamed you. nt. Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #126

HELL YES AND THANK YOU!!! bettyellen Sep 2013 #159

So in other words, why should you give a damn BainsBane Sep 2013 #76

Replace "give a damn about" with "take responsibility for" LittleBlue Sep 2013 #118

Yes, it affects future relationships. Including careers. Ilsa Sep 2013 #67

It also affects her children BainsBane Sep 2013 #81

+100 nt Ilsa Sep 2013 #83

Not responsibility for crimes; take responsibility for being part of the solution. nt Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #98

women commit sexual assualt too, against women and men Californeeway Sep 2013 #90

bah hahaha. well, men commit OVER 98% of rape. women UNDER 2%. certainly wouldnt want to be like... seabeyond Sep 2013 #92

men don't ever report it when it happens Californeeway Sep 2013 #102

find me one feminist or anyone for that matter that has stated a woman has never sexually assaulted. seabeyond Sep 2013 #107

you just got done saying only 2% of rapists are women Californeeway Sep 2013 #117

are you saying a significant amount of women are raping men, comparable to men raping? is this what seabeyond Sep 2013 #120

I'm saying Rape is wrong Californeeway Sep 2013 #125

Ah. Man bashing. So it really was all about a derail. See, thinking you are clever but seabeyond Sep 2013 #127

Seabeyond is the most consistent voices against rape on this board Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #145

First off let me say I'm a man who has been raped by another male Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #144

Neither have I. But I've had close friends who've been raped. And worse. Buns_of_Fire Sep 2013 #12

Exactly Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #13

we men tend to shrug off with a wink and a nod the "playas" who live their lives.... Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #16

That's a generic "we," of course. I was afraid that might be misinterpreted. Buns_of_Fire Sep 2013 #28

or how often what is being said goes right over ones head, because they too are so conditioned in seabeyond Sep 2013 #41

Maybe roofies weren't a thing in your day? Precisely Sep 2013 #34

I guess, it just sounds to me like something out of an after-school special, not reality. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #38

well look man... here you did exactly what people, women and the OP suggests. how much, did it hurt? seabeyond Sep 2013 #37

we do? Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #39

damn... per this thread so innocent, naive and certainly not a part of the real world. not heard a seabeyond Sep 2013 #44

What in the blue blazes are you talking about? Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #45

well yes, they have. no i am not hunting it down. du2, 12 yr old stripper in dallas thread if you seabeyond Sep 2013 #50

No, I don't remember that thread. Hopefully whoever said that has been banned. But in answer to your Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #55

ya. right. and havent heard the get em drunk chant either? or anyone using roofies? seabeyond Sep 2013 #59

sigh Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #65

ah.... now some pictures to derail and dismiss this Op and the subject. nothing like consistency. seabeyond Sep 2013 #69

Well, I'm sure your friends iverglas and Eloriel over at the other board applaud your efforts. opiate69 Sep 2013 #132

Well, whatever world you live in, ..... oldhippie Sep 2013 #77

hey... us women do NOT have the option of staying in the dark of what a roofie is. we had better seabeyond Sep 2013 #79

And that is the typical response >>>> oldhippie Sep 2013 #95

you dismiss with lack of interest a drug regularly being used to rape girls and you have an issue seabeyond Sep 2013 #97

OK, so I learn that it's a drug ........ oldhippie Sep 2013 #115

Sigh MattBaggins Sep 2013 #17

You take responsibility for rape culture. CrispyQ Sep 2013 #18

How far are you willing to go with collective blame? LittleBlue Sep 2013 #23

Perhaps its a fine line, but taking responsibility for one's actions includes bhikkhu Sep 2013 #29

Blame or responsibility? Precisely Sep 2013 #36

as a white person, i certainly do. as a upper class, you betcha. as a christian... hell ya. seabeyond Sep 2013 #46

"collective blame" is a red herring. Progressively join the collective solution. Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #111

THIS should be an OP. I might steal everything you have written here and make an OP of it. bettyellen Sep 2013 #160

Steal away. Let me know if you do. nt Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #163

Well, since men are predominately the perpetrators of those crimes as well, CrispyQ Sep 2013 #167

You got one thing right LittleBlue Sep 2013 #168

What's this about Tosh and the audience? elucidate my dear Watson. nt raccoon Sep 2013 #73

Tosh claims that he was trying to make the point that unfunny things can be funny. CrispyQ Sep 2013 #169

"not one man in that audience stood up & told Tosh to go fuck himself."go against the bro code. why, seabeyond Sep 2013 #78

If you lack imagination, listen up: fight rape culture when you encounter it by speaking up. Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #96

but the thing, these few men live in such a world they have never seen or heard this and are seabeyond Sep 2013 #101

Yes, it's a self-reinforcing slam that keeps their hermetically sealed bubble intact. nt Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #105

It's a bit like the woman's partner in this cartoon: Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #104

I have a suggestion about how you can take responsibility: Squinch Sep 2013 #129

You're wrong LittleBlue Sep 2013 #130

You're wrong. Prove to me that you didn't encourage that poster Squinch Sep 2013 #133

Burden of proof is on you LittleBlue Sep 2013 #135

Burden of encouraging a pedophile is on you. You can give me all the rules you learned in Squinch Sep 2013 #136

"Burden of encouraging a pedophile is on you." LittleBlue Sep 2013 #138

You folded like a cheap suit when asked for proof that you didn't encourage a pedophile. Squinch Sep 2013 #140

I am 100% opposed to rape, and I support severe punishment for the crime. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #4

I couldn't agree more no probation no early release of any kind for rapists Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #6

Did you know India has sentenced four men to death by hanging for participating in gang rape? derby378 Sep 2013 #7

Yeah, I'm opposed to the DP, but the criminals in that case deserve the worst punishment available. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #9

They murdered the victim. Comrade Grumpy Sep 2013 #22

By raping that poor girl to death (n/t) derby378 Sep 2013 #26

They tortured the girl to death bhikkhu Sep 2013 #30

The Dp may have somethng mercuryblues Sep 2013 #58

The victim died from the attack. Hence, the death penalty was sought. nt Ilsa Sep 2013 #71

K&r ! Sand Wind Sep 2013 #14

Or at last quit blaming women for their own rapes ismnotwasm Sep 2013 #40

Men who care for women, care about this issue. --nt CrispyQ Sep 2013 #170

Totally agree. NuclearDem Sep 2013 #42

excellent. thank you. pro active. nt seabeyond Sep 2013 #56

^^^^^ Precisely Sep 2013 #72

Thank you for posting this Precisely Sep 2013 #74

I honestly didn't expect this big of a shit storm there's so much being read into it that was never Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #80

You're helping educate Precisely Sep 2013 #87

Don't you believe it for a second. No one is really reading that shit into it. They're disrupting. Squinch Sep 2013 #131

Sadly it's pretty much the standard reaction on DU to these kinds of threads. Posteritatis Sep 2013 #143

And we should also mention there are men who are survivors of rape. hrmjustin Sep 2013 #82

I agree I am one of those Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #100

I am as well. hrmjustin Sep 2013 #123

Absolutely BainsBane Sep 2013 #112

This thread is showing 81 responses. Sheldon Cooper Sep 2013 #84

I went to eat I come back and this degenerated I gotta redirect this conversation Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #86

It's a shame the HMWHC* always has to derail, but that Sheldon Cooper Sep 2013 #88

Domination Precisely Sep 2013 #106

Bingo. MadrasT Sep 2013 #128

Don't know that you can redirect it when the roaches come out to play, but Squinch Sep 2013 #137

It does make me happy there's lots of support for the sentiment Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #141

I actually think there is. Most of those disruptive threads are from the same Squinch Sep 2013 #142

I seem to be missing a lot of these responses too. Shocked, shocked I tell you. Squinch Sep 2013 #139

That must make the thread hard to understand. Comrade Grumpy Sep 2013 #172

Do you sign yourself up for updates from the likes of Bachmann or Beck? Squinch Sep 2013 #176

I agree gopiscrap Sep 2013 #85

Look guys there's a few things that need to be accepted Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #93

RAPE IS WRONG. PERIOD. heaven05 Sep 2013 #99

Yes, yes it is Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #103

true this. heaven05 Sep 2013 #109

I believe in collective guilt. It's karma. Laffy Kat Sep 2013 #108

absolutely. very basic. very simple. my kids at a young age could understand yet adults..... seabeyond Sep 2013 #110

And some Christians still guilt women and Jewish people NickB79 Sep 2013 #161

I'll have to think about that. Laffy Kat Sep 2013 #175

K & R Iliyah Sep 2013 #114

Kick & recommended. William769 Sep 2013 #134

I've never raped a woman, nor have I ever sexually assaulted one... davidn3600 Sep 2013 #146

I'm glad you've never sexually assaulted or raped anyone neither have I Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #147

he is another that consistency derails with these arguments. he knows. must have been an sos in mens seabeyond Sep 2013 #148

You really know how to twist things around... davidn3600 Sep 2013 #150

What you said was feminists ought to feel sorry for the rapist cause they probably feel bad. No seabeyond Sep 2013 #151

It is simpler than you think. The more violent rapists are simply the subset that more often gets bettyellen Sep 2013 #162

+1000. nt raccoon Sep 2013 #178

love how this thread is full of guys who *think* they know better- off the tops of their heads bettyellen Sep 2013 #179

K & R TDale313 Sep 2013 #149

Same old shit. 99Forever Sep 2013 #152

If you truly feel it's the same old shit why bother posting Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #153

This is a forum. 99Forever Sep 2013 #154

You're right this is a forum where people converse Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #155

You read wrong. 99Forever Sep 2013 #164

I'm neither morally superior nor a moral crusader Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #165

^^^^^^ Precisely Sep 2013 #166

... CrispyQ Sep 2013 #171

You are spot on. 2theleft Sep 2013 #173

As a guy i learned if my opinions make me unpopular with my fellow men so be it Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #174

That's not the point Precisely Sep 2013 #156

What exactly is that man's shadow supposed to be? Silent3 Sep 2013 #157

To be perfectly honest being visually impaired it gets hard to make out picture details Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #158

A minotaur, by the looks of it. Decoy of Fenris Sep 2013 #177

or that hidden within is a beast? Precisely Sep 2013 #180