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struggle4progress

(126,349 posts)

190. A social system is not a plant that can be dug up & replaced or a pair of pants that can be changed:

Tue Sep 17, 2013, 05:01 PM

Sep 2013

it is an abstraction that reflects countless daily interactions between various people as they "solve" countless concrete problems they face

The actual dynamics are so complicated, that they far exceed the ability of any person or any small group of people to comprehend

Your view, that "specific problems should never have to be addressed if they are not created or tolerated to begin with," completely ignores the fact that we do not choose the world in which we find ourselves: the nature of the physical world and the history and structure of the social system within which we first find ourselves is simply handed to us, the social system having develop from efforts to solve specific problems and having in the course of its development created new and unanticipated problems

It is simply impossible to sweep away, in a single stroke, all existing social forms and to replace those with new understandings about human interaction and behavior which solve all known problems without creating new problems

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The prescription to fix so much of what's wrong with this country is simple [View all] cali Sep 2013 OP

Nice summation! It would take a Democratic House and Senate in 2014, and Squinch Sep 2013 #1

For 2 years Obama had the power of the will of the people leftstreet Sep 2013 #2

Not a big Obama fan but, while he had nominal majorities in Congress truebluegreen Sep 2013 #13

And every time Harry the Wimp... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2013 #22

You realize that ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #64

And that attitude.... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2013 #76

That "attitude" ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #86

When we were the minority party in the senate... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2013 #92

okay ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #96

Or the most likely explanation... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2013 #100

Oh, it's Kabuki theater alright. Enthusiast Sep 2013 #113

Funny ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #149

Well, t least you agree that the Republican Party is not the BIG problem preventing any progress. bvar22 Sep 2013 #164

No ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #203

And you think that if the DEmocrats play nice, then the Republicans will in the future. rhett o rick Sep 2013 #104

I have no doubt ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #145

Just like it did when Bush was President... bvar22 Sep 2013 #188

Thank you. nt awoke_in_2003 Sep 2013 #200

Did you miss the part ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #204

I'm going for Door #2. truebluegreen Sep 2013 #85

Yes, but if we could eliminate that dinosaur we could actually get some totodeinhere Sep 2013 #175

My thoughts exactly. truebluegreen Sep 2013 #199

Democrats have had Control of Congress Cryptoad Sep 2013 #35

Well ya vote em in ...and then they change ...not for the better. n/t L0oniX Sep 2013 #37

True Dat! Phlem Sep 2013 #67

Yes he is n/t 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #69

Oh, OK then. Phlem Sep 2013 #79

Yeah ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #87

yeah well not this time. Phlem Sep 2013 #89

Why do so many of us disagree? Enthusiast Sep 2013 #114

For a variety of reasons ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #148

LOL L0oniX Sep 2013 #162

Am I ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #202

Yep ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #68

So you're saying that without say 64 Senators and 270 House members, we're impotent? Doctor_J Sep 2013 #191

I'm saying that we need not just more, but better Democrats. truebluegreen Sep 2013 #198

Democrats had a majority for 24 working days. Zero if you count Lieberman and Sanders. JaneyVee Sep 2013 #15

It was still a huge amount Mojorabbit Sep 2013 #16

and the economy was losing 750k jobs a month bhikkhu Sep 2013 #53

LBJ ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #71

I know exactly what LBJ had. I remember it well. He used his clout while he Mojorabbit Sep 2013 #77

So was ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #90

It was his ability to wheel and deal and twist arms. nt Mojorabbit Sep 2013 #91

Do you really think ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #93

We will never know will we? That was the point of my comment. nt Mojorabbit Sep 2013 #95

So you advocate an approach... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #97

No, I think it could have been effective. I think he could have turned Mojorabbit Sep 2013 #98

That is pure fantasy ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #101

that's the real truth heaven05 Sep 2013 #26

Both things can be and are true dreamnightwind Sep 2013 #110

I won't disagree. heaven05 Sep 2013 #155

I also like Warren dreamnightwind Sep 2013 #205

we want kardonb Sep 2013 #45

President Obama may have had ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2013 #61

And what we mostly got were a kinder and gentler society, but with continuing: wars, the indepat Sep 2013 #72

oh, I don't think that would do it unless we elected cali Sep 2013 #4

Yes. Jackpine Radical Sep 2013 #25

yeppers. bbgrunt Sep 2013 #32

+100000000 ^^^this^^^ L0oniX Sep 2013 #38

I got so fooled by your bug, kept trying to smash it. kimbutgar Sep 2013 #51

Another in a long line of victims. L0oniX Sep 2013 #54

Sorry to be a downer, but..... lark Sep 2013 #181

You covered it well, cali. I would add legislation to strengthen unions. n/t pampango Sep 2013 #3

I think it works best to focus on one issue first... Blanks Sep 2013 #5

works for me, but as I said, I think the grip that cali Sep 2013 #7

I agree. Blanks Sep 2013 #12

Holy Hell !!!! Lurker Deluxe Sep 2013 #172

There are 300 million people in this country. You won't get them to walk in lockstep: struggle4progress Sep 2013 #120

I agree. Blanks Sep 2013 #154

This guy was good at "Movement Building". bvar22 Sep 2013 #189

Wow!!!! heaven05 Sep 2013 #156

What will it take? A massive crisis... First Speaker Sep 2013 #6

I agree with you. cali Sep 2013 #8

Maybe campaign reform needs blue14u Sep 2013 #78

Abstract pessimism doesn't accomplish anything. Lots of people out there are unhappy struggle4progress Sep 2013 #121

you are on the case. heaven05 Sep 2013 #157

Economic war against those corporations? Cleita Sep 2013 #9

Don't think too abstractly and don't be too much of an ideologue struggle4progress Sep 2013 #122

Repeal Citizens United verdict, for one Vanje Sep 2013 #10

You first must have transparency in order to increase it. n/t L0oniX Sep 2013 #39

To repeal Citizens United, we need to impeach at least 5 members of the Supreme Court. RC Sep 2013 #44

Prosecute corporate criminals Vanje Sep 2013 #11

That's too abstract. You need more focus struggle4progress Sep 2013 #123

Republicans are the problem. JaneyVee Sep 2013 #14

It's partisan madness not to recognize that cali Sep 2013 #17

Nah, check the voting records of your list. Less republicans = more progress. JaneyVee Sep 2013 #18

Sorry, but denying that the Democratic Party has a "corporation" problem is nutso cali Sep 2013 #24

They aren't pure, but they are also nowhere near as bad. (nt) jeff47 Sep 2013 #178

Winning political fights in the US is not a matter of absolute victories or defeats: it is often struggle4progress Sep 2013 #124

They are not the only problem, sad to say. Vanje Sep 2013 #47

"What would it take to change this dynamic?"... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2013 #19

LSD in the punchbowls at Congressional parties Jackpine Radical Sep 2013 #28

IMO the only thing that will change it can not be spoken of on DU or anywhere. n/t L0oniX Sep 2013 #42

It won't be televised. Vanje Sep 2013 #49

Nice group of quotes Art_from_Ark Sep 2013 #65

I think you post may be depressingly true. nt awoke_in_2003 Sep 2013 #75

I'm feeling it's unspokeness. bluedeathray Sep 2013 #161

Yep. Doctor_J Sep 2013 #192

Worked for France at one time. RC Sep 2013 #46

It worked in Nazi Germany, too. pampango Sep 2013 #56

That is a crude solution, which history shows always cuts both ways: there is a certain struggle4progress Sep 2013 #127

One thing that would help is real policy alternatives from the Left phantom power Sep 2013 #20

The 99% needs to get rid of what I like to call the "Steinbeck Syndrome." Brigid Sep 2013 #41

look up "Overton window" Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2013 #108

Corporate media is not the only way to reach people struggle4progress Sep 2013 #130

The trick here is to re-imagine how a particular aspect of the society could be ordered struggle4progress Sep 2013 #128

Thus has it ever been with the one percent. Brigid Sep 2013 #21

Don't forget...... essaynnc Sep 2013 #23

The advantage of money is that it can hire organization and communication media struggle4progress Sep 2013 #131

I feel your pain Chaco Dundee Sep 2013 #27

And that's exactly what's meant by RADICAL change-- Jackpine Radical Sep 2013 #29

That may sound clever but in reality it's just an empty abstraction struggle4progress Sep 2013 #132

right Chaco Dundee Sep 2013 #159

A social system is not a plant that can be dug up & replaced or a pair of pants that can be changed: struggle4progress Sep 2013 #190

Exactly gopiscrap Sep 2013 #30

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing." raouldukelives Sep 2013 #31

Humans usually have some mixture of motives. Jefferson was a great man in some ways, struggle4progress Sep 2013 #133

So true. And so many ways like today. raouldukelives Sep 2013 #206

Lately all we seem to be able to do is make things half as bad as they are. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #33

That is much of human history, I am afraid, and the only advice that can offered there struggle4progress Sep 2013 #134

I was hoping to get the ERA passed under Obama.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #168

In other words, we need to throw the Republicans out of the House of Representatives Coyotl Sep 2013 #34

Along with the DLC Democrats and the DINO's and with anyone else bought of with big money. RC Sep 2013 #52

What, use Tea Party strategy to defeat Dem incumbents and give the seats to the Rs? BAD idea. Coyotl Sep 2013 #169

So it is OK to elect DINO's or whoever, if the have a (D) by their name? RC Sep 2013 #174

Reread what I just posted instead of rewriting it. Coyotl Sep 2013 #179

Yes, it is wrong to do what the Tea Party is doing RC Sep 2013 #186

There's an excellent suggestion for a large number of political research projects, struggle4progress Sep 2013 #135

+1 SunSeeker Sep 2013 #173

We did that in 2006-2010 Doctor_J Sep 2013 #193

Massive, relentless non-compliance sulphurdunn Sep 2013 #36

Gov snipers already had OWS in their scopes. They are ready to kill for the 1%. L0oniX Sep 2013 #43

No question. Enthusiast Sep 2013 #116

Yes, they are. sulphurdunn Sep 2013 #125

That can work if you can make a convincing moral case for the non-compliance struggle4progress Sep 2013 #136

Lennin sulphurdunn Sep 2013 #146

that, unfortunately, did not turn out particularly well, as trotsky noted: struggle4progress Sep 2013 #150

Certainly, sulphurdunn Sep 2013 #158

Lay out the positive role and need for government action in the areas you mention. Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #40

It is better to show than to tell struggle4progress Sep 2013 #137

Sure. Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #196

Turn out and vote. another_liberal Sep 2013 #48

One of the most depressing sights I've seen lately . . . Brigid Sep 2013 #58

That kind of disregard for the voting public . . . another_liberal Sep 2013 #81

We dont have a "truley informed public". Vanje Sep 2013 #62

I see your point . . . another_liberal Sep 2013 #80

Its a hard road Vanje Sep 2013 #82

Yes maybe it is. another_liberal Sep 2013 #83

In the mean time, keep your congress-dudes and dudettes apprised of your thoughts Vanje Sep 2013 #84

surely people engaged successfully in political action prior to the age of television struggle4progress Sep 2013 #151

Elections are important, but they only determine part of the field. Activity between elections struggle4progress Sep 2013 #138

A true progressive President Jake2413 Sep 2013 #50

Someone not bought and paid for before the fixed elections. RC Sep 2013 #66

Have you ever heard the slogan "If the people lead, the leaders will follow"? struggle4progress Sep 2013 #139

I would add raisng the minumum wage bhikkhu Sep 2013 #55

The dynamic has changed before quaker bill Sep 2013 #57

I would add exiting the costly trade agreements. grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #59

I would say that the very root and core of how positive change is blocked is scarletwoman Sep 2013 #60

To change it peacefully? TBF Sep 2013 #63

We need all three branches LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #70

In answer to your question: I am beginning to think "a revolution like the French Revolution" emsimon33 Sep 2013 #73

The effect would not be as salutarious as you imagine: the politics of blood-in-the-streets struggle4progress Sep 2013 #140

The beginning libdude Sep 2013 #74

It is silly to think that the problem is one of finding good leaders, if one is interested struggle4progress Sep 2013 #141

The problem with fixing this country is determining where to begin. AdHocSolver Sep 2013 #88

"..."we" import nearly everything we buy." Trade is 22% of our economy. It's 50% in Canada, 80% in pampango Sep 2013 #115

I agree with your take. Enthusiast Sep 2013 #117

That undercutting of American worker also corresponds to the exploitation of workers abroad struggle4progress Sep 2013 #142

Not all of us can support your agenda. We have families to support. Llewlladdwr Sep 2013 #94

What are your principles worth? You choose to be where you are, do you have principles Egalitarian Thug Sep 2013 #99

I'm looking to feed my family. Llewlladdwr Sep 2013 #106

I am aware that "cutting environmental protection" quaker bill Sep 2013 #119

There it is. IGMFU. Egalitarian Thug Sep 2013 #152

Smash capitalism. Utterly and completely. Nothing less will do. ~nt~ b.durruti Sep 2013 #102

That, however, is too abstract to be meaningful. What we need are struggle4progress Sep 2013 #144

Term limits Revanchist Sep 2013 #103

Term limits merely guarantee that elected officials don't have time to learn the issues struggle4progress Sep 2013 #118

A tipping point is coming. The consequences of corruption can not be put off forever. Omnith Sep 2013 #105

Everyone voting Precisely Sep 2013 #107

Do they still prescribe Thorazine? jberryhill Sep 2013 #109

What would it take to change this dynamic? Enthusiast Sep 2013 #111

Putin, the favorite of so many around here lately, established a flat 13% tax rate in Russia. pnwmom Sep 2013 #112

As long as Putin is anti Obama he'll be popular here Democat Sep 2013 #147

Well, one can start by listening to this guy, PotatoChip Sep 2013 #126

Some time ago, I wrote an essay that responds directly to your question. Laelth Sep 2013 #129

It takes people . . . Utopian Leftist Sep 2013 #143

Changing the dynamic: LWolf Sep 2013 #153

The people I know are not as well off as 5-10 years ago, CrispyQ Sep 2013 #160

It's very simple what would change the dynamic... RevStPatrick Sep 2013 #163

That is fixable on an individual or family basis Precisely Sep 2013 #166

Yes, of course. You're right. RevStPatrick Sep 2013 #170

you're right about how important it is Precisely Sep 2013 #171

When the derivatives casino collapses Warpy Sep 2013 #165

Every candidate running for office since I've been alive has promised to do at least one of those. Dash87 Sep 2013 #167

It'snot the only thing that needs to be fixed because it is more complicated than Skidmore Sep 2013 #176

yes, and YES - we need to put economy back in perspective BelgianMadCow Sep 2013 #207

All it takes is time jeff47 Sep 2013 #177

Here's some good news: ProSense Sep 2013 #180

IMO, the response is a simple one. Tiredofthesame Sep 2013 #182

Separation of Corporation and State......... NOW! ErikJ Sep 2013 #183

As long as the most important thing in the world is to keep very rich people rich and make them valerief Sep 2013 #184

It's Time...But colsohlibgal Sep 2013 #185

What would it take to change this dynamic? Prophet 451 Sep 2013 #187

Publicly funded elections, that's where you start NCcoast Sep 2013 #194

Kick the bums out.... BlueJac Sep 2013 #195

Great discussion.... perkygrubb Sep 2013 #197

Nothing is going to happen Link Speed Sep 2013 #201