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DanTex

(20,709 posts)

157. OK. I enjoyed the discussion. Welcome to DU.

Reply to furious (Reply #155)

Fri Sep 20, 2013, 06:55 PM

Sep 2013

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America will never solve its gun problem until it gets over its fetish for the Founding Fathers. [View all] coldmountain Sep 2013 OP

We do need a new constitution, but if we had a constitutional LuvNewcastle Sep 2013 #1

All Blue states have a lot of repukes KamaAina Sep 2013 #62

actually the problem is that people are making money samsingh Sep 2013 #2

On your own. ThePushmataha Sep 2013 #90

I couldn't disagree more. As far as I am concerned respect for the constitution is our only defense dkf Sep 2013 #3

The Constitution has failed and we are verging toward a failed state coldmountain Sep 2013 #4

You can't blame the constitution, blame uninformed passive voters. dkf Sep 2013 #5

just one example questionseverything Sep 2013 #133

I can only go so far on the CT thing... dkf Sep 2013 #141

ct thing? questionseverything Sep 2013 #187

That is so untrue treestar Sep 2013 #226

Agree. But that pesky constitution gets in the way of certain short-sighted agendae. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #9

The hubris in thinking we will only get rid of one right and leave the rest untouched is amazing. dkf Sep 2013 #14

Details, details... sarisataka Sep 2013 #20

Hardly a day, indeed. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #36

Ruth Bader Ginsburg made the same point in a NYT article a while back. CTyankee Sep 2013 #225

How would you protect rights DonCoquixote Sep 2013 #227

I'm not seeing a "retune" of the 1st A as much as the addition of women's rights and CTyankee Sep 2013 #234

Agreed... Decaffeinated Sep 2013 #43

I guess academics are low nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #50

Nadin: An element supporting 2A for suppression does not make the 2A all about slavery. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #81

Proof pintobean Sep 2013 #89

Well, I count Nadin among my friends, but that post does suggest something. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #98

Of course it's bunk nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #93

Could you provide a valid link to the debunking, please? Cerridwen Sep 2013 #189

I certainly will, if you don't mind the wait. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #194

Understood. Completely. Cerridwen Sep 2013 #201

keep us updated. some of us have marked our calendars. CTyankee Sep 2013 #239

It has glaring problems to it nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #38

The Constitution hasn't stopped them to this point! Why would it in the future? coldmountain Sep 2013 #66

They kept it secret so that it couldn't be reviewed. dkf Sep 2013 #75

Wait a minute. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #78

The Constitution built in an amendment process to keep up with the times... devils chaplain Sep 2013 #6

well, it certainly took us a long time to emancipate slaves and give full citizenship CTyankee Sep 2013 #231

But it was done... and it wasn't done earlier because sadly the people didn't want it at the time.nt devils chaplain Sep 2013 #233

Which people are you talking about? Women had been agitating for the vote since the CTyankee Sep 2013 #235

Until we get rid of the standing army we're not supposed to have. eom TransitJohn Sep 2013 #7

I've always wondered about that sarisataka Sep 2013 #10

We weren't ever supposed to have one, thus the 2nd and 3rd Amendments TransitJohn Sep 2013 #12

Constitutionally the army is mentioned twice sarisataka Sep 2013 #18

Far more than guns, I'm afraid. Egalitarian Thug Sep 2013 #8

They should be jailed for writing such things. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #11

Besides just guns, there are serious problems with the way congress is apportioned. DanTex Sep 2013 #13

Then you would have two houses. You think that is better? dkf Sep 2013 #15

So you actually think 2 senators per state is a good allocation? DanTex Sep 2013 #16

And they are what? dkf Sep 2013 #19

For example, proportional representation. DanTex Sep 2013 #21

I say increase the Senate to 200. 4 senators per state. Disband the House. randome Sep 2013 #24

That still doesn't resolve the Wyoming/California problem. DanTex Sep 2013 #25

I think the reason for 2 senators per state was to keep the bigger states, population wise, furious Sep 2013 #29

It (maybe) made sense in 1787 for that reason. DanTex Sep 2013 #30

More vulnerable in the sense of being run over by the more pop. states. furious Sep 2013 #35

Why should every state have an equal say? What is so sacred about the "state" as a unit. DanTex Sep 2013 #37

They're not more valuable because of 2 senators per state. furious Sep 2013 #39

Again, what is so important about the "state" as unit? DanTex Sep 2013 #41

They don't get more protection than Brooklyn because of the equal number of senator. furious Sep 2013 #45

But the people of Brooklyn are only a small part of NY. How is that fair. DanTex Sep 2013 #47

America was formed as a confederacy of states. We ARE Europe. randome Sep 2013 #46

To divide power. Consolidated power corrupts. Division isn't a bug, it's a feature. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #82

Power can be divided without giving some voters more representation than others. DanTex Sep 2013 #84

Do you really think those chuckleheads in CA know what's best for WY? Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #86

You really don't get it, do you. DanTex Sep 2013 #88

You don't get it. Your life is not the sole standard by which all other lives are judged. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #92

"That's the way it is" is not a justification. DanTex Sep 2013 #95

I didn't say "that's the way it is" I said "That's why it's smart." Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #97

I get that you don't like CA, but that's not a reason to deny them equal representation. DanTex Sep 2013 #100

They don't deserve an equal say in how to run matters in my state. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #104

Sigh. I think each mid-westerner and each Californian should have *the same* representation. DanTex Sep 2013 #107

But there isn't "equal". CA's population overshadows mid-west states by orders of magnitude. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #111

Of course there is "equal". Each person gets the same amount of representation. DanTex Sep 2013 #114

OK, so let's bust up every large state into states with a pop. no greater than the Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #118

Or just give them equal representation in the senate. DanTex Sep 2013 #123

What's wrong with busting states into equal population groups with equal congressional votes? Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #126

If states want to break up, I think they should. If not, they shouldn't. DanTex Sep 2013 #128

"If states want to break up" So, suddenly you consider states a homogenous entity. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #131

No, I don't. What I (obviously) meant is "if the people of the state want to break up". DanTex Sep 2013 #137

I understood your comment to mean exactly what you restated. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #140

How does the way CA manages its internal affairs affect the midwest? DanTex Sep 2013 #142

National policies always carry local consequences. If they didn't you Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #145

I agree. But whether CA breaks up into smaller states is not a national issue. DanTex Sep 2013 #147

It is a national issue because CA has more votes than WY in the House. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #148

That has nothing to do with it. DanTex Sep 2013 #149

No, because those new states would have their own self-interests. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #150

How would breaking CA into 20 states change that? It wouldn't. DanTex Sep 2013 #151

No expenditure bill is written on equal division of funds by default. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #152

And that's unfair to the people of Fresno, who can be ignored, because they don't have any senators. DanTex Sep 2013 #153

So split up CA. Let the other 19 states of former CA compete equally with mid-westerners. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #154

Again, how CA organizes it's local governance has no effect on mid-westerners. DanTex Sep 2013 #156

So you want CA to have more votes in deciding which states get the $$$. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #159

Again, I want each citizen to have the same number of votes. DanTex Sep 2013 #160

But if CA remains a single state it has more votes than the other states. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #166

You are making absolutely no sense... DanTex Sep 2013 #167

I posed a scenario to you based on every day legislative affairs. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #218

You continue to ignore the essential argument: every citizen deserves *equal* protection. DanTex Sep 2013 #219

You ignore the practical realities. As a single political entity CA gets more votes. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #220

Again ignoring the question about Fresno. Again with "that's just the way it is". DanTex Sep 2013 #221

You're comparing cities to states. We're talking political divisions. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #222

The political divisions are arbitrary. What matters is equal representation for citizens. DanTex Sep 2013 #223

Political divisions are a reality. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #224

Income inequality is also a reality. It doesn't make the status quo right. DanTex Sep 2013 #228

I'm aching to know how administrative divisions in government are analogous to poverty. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #237

The analogy is between inequality of political representation (which you are defending) and DanTex Sep 2013 #240

I'm defending income/politcal inequality? Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #242

You are defending political inequality. You think people in Wyoming deserve 50x more representation DanTex Sep 2013 #246

OK, we get it already. You don't like the current system. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #248

It's not that I don't like it. It's that it is fundamentally unequal and undemocratic. DanTex Sep 2013 #250

Honest question. Do you think there should even be a Senate? oldhippie Sep 2013 #251

I'm not sure. DanTex Sep 2013 #252

Excellent answer ..... oldhippie Sep 2013 #257

I agree entirely that the chances of enacting this kind of change are nil. DanTex Sep 2013 #259

I think the crux of DanTex's issue is ...... oldhippie Sep 2013 #243

I've also observed exactly what you describe but I still lay the onus at his feet. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #247

And the constant refrain of "So, that's just the way it is?" ...... oldhippie Sep 2013 #249

Because it's not about the cities within the states, furious Sep 2013 #122

Again, the whole concept of "states representation" is flawed. DanTex Sep 2013 #125

How would it be equal? furious Sep 2013 #129

One person, one vote is equal. Giving more weight to people in WY is unequal. DanTex Sep 2013 #132

Representation of citizens is handled by the House. ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #161

State representation has nothing to do with minority rights. DanTex Sep 2013 #164

States rights via the Senate is one possible implementation of minority rights. ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #169

But you keep repeating "that's the way it is". DanTex Sep 2013 #171

No, we keep repeating ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #175

Again, it has nothing to do with minority rights. DanTex Sep 2013 #177

That you don't like the reason does not invalidate the reason since the reason is valid. ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #178

It's actually fascinating to watch. DanTex Sep 2013 #179

Whereas you choose not to acknowledge your priviledged position. ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #180

My priviledged position? Wha....? DanTex Sep 2013 #183

And by virtue of having more representatives, ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #185

Sigh. But *per capita* the number of representatives is the same. DanTex Sep 2013 #188

Correct. ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #191

Right, and the governing principle for the Senate is grossly undemocratic. DanTex Sep 2013 #196

"Undemocratic" depends on your point of view. ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #198

No it doesn't. The essence of democracy is that every citizen has equal representation. DanTex Sep 2013 #199

You may think it is nonsense. ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #203

Back to "that's the way it is". DanTex Sep 2013 #205

You were doing well until the third paragraph. ManiacJoe Sep 2013 #209

"There are plenty of justifications". Then why all the mystery? DanTex Sep 2013 #211

That's one philosophy of democracy ..... oldhippie Sep 2013 #204

Please, do tell. Explain why some people should have 50x more representation than others. DanTex Sep 2013 #206

Sigh. One more, then I'm going to bed ...... oldhippie Sep 2013 #207

"That's the way it is". "The founders are always right". Etc. DanTex Sep 2013 #210

Objectively, it is already so LanternWaste Sep 2013 #138

Wrong. WY has 50x as many senators per capita as CA. DanTex Sep 2013 #139

They don't. treestar Sep 2013 #230

When it comes to expenditure (and other) bills in congress Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #241

You are right. The FFs recognized the problem, so gave each state two Senators SlimJimmy Sep 2013 #269

Because this is the United "States" of America. MicaelS Sep 2013 #49

"Because that's the way it is" is not a justification. Do you have a logical argument? DanTex Sep 2013 #51

It was part of the agreement when the nation was formed. beevul Sep 2013 #101

Again with "that's the way it is". DanTex Sep 2013 #102

No, not "the way it is". beevul Sep 2013 #108

In other words "that's the way it is".... DanTex Sep 2013 #110

Viewed through the lense of... beevul Sep 2013 #116

A lot of things people did and said 200 years ago are wrong. DanTex Sep 2013 #121

and when we see the need for change of the original agreement, we change it. CTyankee Sep 2013 #244

That's the way it was agreed to ..... oldhippie Sep 2013 #182

I've proposed a solution to this on here before. krispos42 Sep 2013 #40

That's an interesting idea, but I still don't get this thing about "bullying" smaller states. DanTex Sep 2013 #44

Let's say California decides Wyoming would be a dandy place to store nuclear waste. krispos42 Sep 2013 #57

I still don't see why Wyoming needs/deserves more protection than Fresno or Staten Island. DanTex Sep 2013 #61

It might well be an outdated concept krispos42 Sep 2013 #65

It's tricky. I agree there needs to be a constitution to protect against tyranny of the majority. DanTex Sep 2013 #69

California has 53 Seats in the House. Wyoming has 1. You keep leaving that part out. Bluenorthwest Sep 2013 #130

Why should there be one grossly undemocratic and unequal chamber? DanTex Sep 2013 #135

True, however, Moses2SandyKoufax Sep 2013 #165

You seem to be unaware that your argument was both given and argued, and then ultimately rejected LanternWaste Sep 2013 #143

I'm aware. My whole point is that decisions made 200+ years ago when the world and DanTex Sep 2013 #144

I think your whole point is ...... oldhippie Sep 2013 #184

Wrong. My point is that it was a bad decision. DanTex Sep 2013 #186

And a lot of other people think it wasn't. oldhippie Sep 2013 #193

The irony is the supposedly proportional split doesn't reflect the overall vote anyway. dkf Sep 2013 #31

Why not? A proportional split along the lines of what I proposed would DanTex Sep 2013 #32

Yes, because the Senators don't represent the people in a state, they represent the SlimJimmy Sep 2013 #267

Fuck that. It might seem a good idea for California and Texas to split everthing between them... lumberjack_jeff Sep 2013 #76

So you think it's right that people in Wyoming have 50x more representation than those in CA? DanTex Sep 2013 #77

I think it's right that the small states get to veto the shitty ideas the house comes up with. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2013 #79

The fact that you like the outcome doesn't make it fair or democratic. DanTex Sep 2013 #83

You keep saying that the people of Wyoming have 50x more representation than those in CA, furious Sep 2013 #87

That's because it's true. DanTex Sep 2013 #91

And I have a hard time understanding why you think that WY has more power than CA, furious Sep 2013 #94

A citizen of WY has far more power than a citizen of CA. This is obvious. DanTex Sep 2013 #96

And what you're suggesting would be equally undemocratic furious Sep 2013 #106

No it wouldn't. I'm suggesting each citizen should have the same representation. DanTex Sep 2013 #109

Wrong. furious Sep 2013 #112

I know how it was set up. But just because "that's the way it is" doesn't make it right. DanTex Sep 2013 #115

And neither would what you seem to suggest. furious Sep 2013 #120

A "state" is just a political entity. It's not a person. DanTex Sep 2013 #124

In a way, the Senate does represent the State as a whole while the House represents people and Bluenorthwest Sep 2013 #134

I get that. I'm saying that's undemocratic. DanTex Sep 2013 #136

I disagree. The system you suggest gives all the power to larger States which could then Bluenorthwest Sep 2013 #212

I guess that you and I won't agree on what constitutes fair representation. furious Sep 2013 #155

OK. I enjoyed the discussion. Welcome to DU. DanTex Sep 2013 #157

Same here, and thanks. furious Sep 2013 #158

I think that is the crux of your whole problem .... oldhippie Sep 2013 #190

IOW "that's the way it is". And I'm saying the way it is is undemocratic and wrong... DanTex Sep 2013 #192

No, "That's the way it was agreed to." oldhippie Sep 2013 #195

LOL. So now we're on to "you gonna do something about it?". DanTex Sep 2013 #197

You keep trying to change minds, and it isn't going to happen ..... oldhippie Sep 2013 #200

I don't harbor any illusions of changing your mind. DanTex Sep 2013 #202

what would prevent DonCoquixote Sep 2013 #229

What makes you think California would "steamroll" the rest of the nation. DanTex Sep 2013 #238

They don't. The House of representatives represents the people in the state, and SlimJimmy Sep 2013 #268

Serfing USA seveneyes Sep 2013 #17

Many Americans are also aware of its shortcomings. DanTex Sep 2013 #22

We no more need the Constitution to 'tell' us what to do than we do the Bible. randome Sep 2013 #23

This argument could be used sarisataka Sep 2013 #26

It's already been used multiple times. Dash87 Sep 2013 #33

This is a specious argument Bunnahabhain Sep 2013 #27

I agree gopiscrap Sep 2013 #28

There's also the problem of the 275 millions guns already owned by citizens. krispos42 Sep 2013 #34

I'm glad we have a constitution and respect for the FF LittleBlue Sep 2013 #42

We can have laws that respect free speech. randome Sep 2013 #48

It can be changed LittleBlue Sep 2013 #52

Isn't the constitution the reason we preserve free speech Jesus Malverde Sep 2013 #55

No. The reason we preserve free speech is because we WANT to preserve free speech. randome Sep 2013 #63

USA, USA, USA, nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #56

Wow, a new national anthem for us. Fuck yeah! LuvNewcastle Sep 2013 #58

The movie is just one bad stereotype after another nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #59

I follow Europe quite closely LittleBlue Sep 2013 #60

And if you are honest, which you are not, nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #64

Where did I say we were perfect? LittleBlue Sep 2013 #68

Winner takes all has led to one civil war nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #72

India is a parliament LittleBlue Sep 2013 #73

And it can be greatly improved nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #74

Rec'd; nothing is invoked more often to defend the indefensible than our ancient Constitution BeyondGeography Sep 2013 #53

Silliness. Pure silliness. Demo_Chris Sep 2013 #54

But that's "hard work" and it's a lot easier to destroy than to build. Uncle Joe Sep 2013 #70

A frightening one to be sure. nt Demo_Chris Sep 2013 #71

Thr Constitution already failed, we couldn't hurt it any more! coldmountain Sep 2013 #162

Don't make the mistake of selling the mega-corporations, oligarchs, their corporate media Uncle Joe Sep 2013 #168

I hope your spoon came with a good warranty. cherokeeprogressive Sep 2013 #67

Did you see the slavery map thread? What Lincoln inherited from the Founding Fathers coldmountain Sep 2013 #181

Agree. FF talked of liberty as they denied women vote, killed Native Americans, raped/beat slaves. Hoyt Sep 2013 #80

And FF were brilliant enough to craft a document allowing us to fix those conditions. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #146

Hopefully the day will come where decent people will keep gunz hidden. Hoyt Sep 2013 #172

To be sure, Open Carry while you're out and about is like wearing a Badge of Stupid. nt NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #173

Our Constitution is the worst, TheDeputy Sep 2013 #85

It's filled with fail, it sucks, it's like the WORST CONSTITUTION EVER!!!! NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #99

you're absolutely right backwoodsbob Sep 2013 #103

The Founding Fathers passed their own gun control laws. Agnosticsherbet Sep 2013 #105

It's the constant misinterpretation of the Constitution Jeneral2885 Sep 2013 #113

that's about as likely as replacing the stars and stripes with the peace symbol as our national flag Douglas Carpenter Sep 2013 #117

the fact that many habits of the founders are illegal today and the rights arely staircase Sep 2013 #119

We need a new Constitution Mellow Drama Sep 2013 #127

You will get a chance to try out the free speech part! Best of luck! coldmountain Sep 2013 #163

In the case of the RKBA it is not a fetish, it's expedience. truebluegreen Sep 2013 #170

thats "well equipped" Duckhunter935 Sep 2013 #174

Even if that is true, what about the rest of it? truebluegreen Sep 2013 #176

The Constitution is not going away. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #208

The Constitution has a BUILT IN self-destruct mechanism. cherokeeprogressive Sep 2013 #213

Wow, if you hadn't added the italics and all caps, I might not have understood you. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #215

I didn't mean to disrespect your post. I know it's not going away. cherokeeprogressive Sep 2013 #216

I think we're saying the same thing. Sorry, having people respond to stuff I didn't actually say Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #217

Actually, it takes a bit more than a majority ...... oldhippie Sep 2013 #236

lulz Tuesday Afternoon Sep 2013 #214

The Constitution has weathered very well except for one or two things treestar Sep 2013 #232

Repealing the second amendment would not make the right go away. X_Digger Sep 2013 #253

But that right could then be infringed somewhat treestar Sep 2013 #254

And each infringement has to be balanced, just like other fundamental rights. X_Digger Sep 2013 #255

Well if the existence of the Second Amendment makes no difference treestar Sep 2013 #261

It's the current federal protection. It is not the source of the right. X_Digger Sep 2013 #262

The Bill of Rights other than the 9th presumably mean something treestar Sep 2013 #264

The states recognize the right (see state constitutions).. X_Digger Sep 2013 #265

I already has been Duckhunter935 Sep 2013 #258

Some group, maybe the Third Way, is working very hard to disseminate anti-democracy Zorra Sep 2013 #245

well, I hate to burst your bubble, but the notion of some king or noble throwing you in CTyankee Sep 2013 #256

some facts to consider: Britain abolished slavery in 1833. British women won right to vote CTyankee Sep 2013 #266

Conservatives are so selfish ... JEFF9K Sep 2013 #260

So, what would you replace it with? n/c oneshooter Sep 2013 #263