General Discussion

pampango

(24,692 posts)

158. OR if we had progressive taxes, strong unions and an effective safety net,

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 04:21 PM

Sep 2013

we'd be thriving, not starving.

Trade is a small part of our economy (about 20%). Every other developed country has more trade (40% to 80% of the economy) than we do. Of course, they have more progressive taxes, stronger unions and better safety nets, as well as much better income distributions and stronger middle classes.

Progressive countries are not progressive because they trade. They are progressive because of their tax policy, pro-union laws and culture and a commitment to their safety net. Progressive countries trade more than we do because they see an openness to other countries as consistent with their world view and their domestic policies.

If they thought that trade was inconsistent with all of their other liberal policies, they would minimize it. They don't.

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Defend this, Defenders! President Obama speaks out on Trade Promotion Authority [View all] cali Sep 2013 OP

Because protectionism works so well intaglio Sep 2013 #1

uh, being opposed to this obscenity is NOT the same as protectionism. duh. cali Sep 2013 #2

You are right, cali. pampango Sep 2013 #6

actually, it does work well. bowens43 Sep 2013 #3

No it does not. It did not work under republicans in the 1920's which is why FDR campaigned against pampango Sep 2013 #4

I'm not arguing for protectionism cali Sep 2013 #5

I should wait a little longer to post my responses. See 6 above. :) pampango Sep 2013 #7

So right. Protectionism is NOT the same as TPP! AllyCat Sep 2013 #9

I'm curious...Does anyone know what the senate dems position on this is? Warren? Sanders winterpark Sep 2013 #65

It kinda depends on what you mean by protectionism. fasttense Sep 2013 #8

I never understood how a nation's "protecting" its workers was bad..Europe protects theirs. whathehell Sep 2013 #107

How does "Europe protect theirs?" Their tariffs are low. They have more "free trade" than we do. pampango Sep 2013 #110

Beyond what you've already mentioned, by restricting employment to EU members only.. whathehell Sep 2013 #123

Tariffs work! They funded our govt for the first 125 years. grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #13

+1000. Thom Hartman speaks often on this. Tariffs were a practical and working GoneFishin Sep 2013 #25

Until they were replaced by the income tax - a progressive victory. pampango Sep 2013 #27

Still need tariff's, or your jobs drain away to the lowest overseas bidder. AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #31

Might be true if the wealthy and their corporations are actually paying taxes, instead of getting grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #89

"tariffs protect American jobs." That's what republicans said in the 1920's. pampango Sep 2013 #111

If these costly trade agreements were good for Americans, we'd be thriving, not starving. grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #126

^^^^this^^^^ L0oniX Sep 2013 #141

OR if we had progressive taxes, strong unions and an effective safety net, pampango Sep 2013 #158

HAHA. Is your computer made in america? Shoes? Clothes? No, costly trade agreements cost jobs. grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #159

It is true than when countries trade, you end up buying things made in other countries. pampango Sep 2013 #160

It's exactly what Germany does. If costly trade agreements work, 50,000 factories would not grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #162

What is "what Germany does"? Trade is 80% of their economy yet they have stronger unions, pampango Sep 2013 #165

In 2012 Germany exported goods worth 1 097.3 billion euro and imported goods worth 909.1 b euro grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #166

Exactly. And Germany does it with strong unions and high wages. pampango Sep 2013 #170

In 2012 Germany exported goods worth 1 097.3 billion euro and imported goods worth 909.1 b euro grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #167

When has it been otherwise? MNBrewer Sep 2013 #149

True. But there is "doing well" and "doing 'obscenely' well" at the expense of the middle class as pampango Sep 2013 #161

It certainly Does work well for China and S. Korea FreakinDJ Sep 2013 #17

Protecting us is the governments job. bemildred Sep 2013 #35

Funny how they want to protect us, but not our livelihoods, LOL grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #90

Who is talking about protectionism? Could you point it out please?? sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #66

It's waaaay more than that.. whathehell Sep 2013 #106

"protectionism" for who? International corporations? L0oniX Sep 2013 #140

Look over there at the shiny object! MNBrewer Sep 2013 #148

NAFTA casued the loss of 94,000 US factories. Protect that. Katashi_itto Sep 2013 #155

"Defend this, Defenders!" is superfluous and inflammatory pinboy3niner Sep 2013 #10

The TPP is superfluous and inflammatory, LOL grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #12

LOL! pinboy3niner Sep 2013 #16

Must have been mixed up with BTP ...Bad Toilet Paper L0oniX Sep 2013 #142

yes it is. but it gets eyes and comments and raising visibility on this cali Sep 2013 #14

That's actually a fair point pinboy3niner Sep 2013 #20

agreed, and there is no framing of an issue treestar Sep 2013 #63

That is an absolutely spurious claim cali Sep 2013 #79

well you may have researched it treestar Sep 2013 #131

Simply means fewer jobs, lower wages. grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #11

Also higher drug prices, and more corporations can sue a country's taxpayers when a rule or djean111 Sep 2013 #15

And it removes accountability for our politicians. It gives them cover to support a GoneFishin Sep 2013 #28

The goal is lower wages worldwide - TBF Sep 2013 #22

Yup, The Wet Dream of The RW One Percent: A Two Tier Society of Them & Their Slaves whathehell Sep 2013 #108

Exactly. nt TBF Sep 2013 #109

I'll have to just go to with Obama on this one. gulliver Sep 2013 #18

citizen.org - TPP: Corporate Power Tool of the 1% solarhydrocan Sep 2013 #23

You need to do some research - TBF Sep 2013 #24

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #26

Congress will have to vote on it just like they have every other trade agreement. pampango Sep 2013 #29

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #37

"And they will see it before they vote on it." CrispyQ Sep 2013 #50

It also requires a quick vote and eliminates filibuster. pa28 Sep 2013 #101

It's utterly dishonest to make a trade agreement involving workers without consuling Bluenorthwest Sep 2013 #30

You'd need to study the actual documents. Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #41

Then do your own research, but trusting Obama is a stupid as trusting an unknown internet source. CrispyQ Sep 2013 #51

Have you even read part of it? WCLinolVir Sep 2013 #59

You mis-spelled your user name: it's g-u-l-l-i-b-l-e. appal_jack Sep 2013 #73

honestly, i think we should just trust our president in every decision he makes frylock Sep 2013 #98

Selling Out The Middle Class One Trade Deal At A Time cantbeserious Sep 2013 #19

If deals have to be made in secret, they are bad deals. truebluegreen Sep 2013 #21

Irrational knee-jerk Obama haters hate everything Obama does. baldguy Sep 2013 #32

Too bad you cannot separate Obama's various policies from Obama himself. djean111 Sep 2013 #34

Obama's supporters aren't the ones who can't separate the man from his policies baldguy Sep 2013 #46

I don't hate Obama. There is no point to hating or loving him, he is a politician. djean111 Sep 2013 #52

Yes, cali's OP title enlightenment Sep 2013 #55

I'd like to see someone point out that knee-jerk Obama hating from the Left is absurd. baldguy Sep 2013 #71

I agree! In fact so much so that I did exactly that! You are right, the left IS absurd Dragonfli Sep 2013 #82

Again, can we stick to the TOPIC of the OP? enlightenment Sep 2013 #86

No, he doesn't. Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #118

Are there irrational knee-jerk Obama lovers who love (or at least tolerate) everything Obama does? Jim Lane Sep 2013 #116

Oh yes they are. I have never said anything hateful about the President or even close cali Sep 2013 #124

Because being against TPP is as reasonable as being a birther... Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #42

Straw man! False equivalency! Re-direction. WCLinolVir Sep 2013 #60

Do you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #88

HAHAHA! Remember when he was against gay marriage, or you forget already? grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #91

C'mon baldguy, tell us: LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #103

Ever going to come back and address the issue? Union Scribe Sep 2013 #117

Still won't say if you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #127

I apologize if my personal life doesn't fit into your schedule of whiny ineffectual blathering. baldguy Sep 2013 #132

So you stopped in for some insults but not to answer? Union Scribe Sep 2013 #135

Do you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #139

Do you support Rand Paul for President? baldguy Sep 2013 #157

No, of course not. Do you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #164

Well, you see Rand Paul doesn't support the TPP either. baldguy Sep 2013 #169

But do you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #172

Are you a liar or a fool? baldguy Sep 2013 #173

Do you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #174

Could it be you're both? baldguy Sep 2013 #175

Do you support the TPP? Could it be you're too chicken to answer? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #176

Sorry to shatter your dreams but Obama isn't a fascist dictator & Rand Paul will never be President. baldguy Sep 2013 #177

Do you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #179

The making of a fascist world order. It is consistent with his treatment of corporations GoneFishin Sep 2013 #33

he mtasselin Sep 2013 #40

Yep. DOMA etc. are great. But those are dog bones he can throw our way without GoneFishin Sep 2013 #45

Post removed Post removed Sep 2013 #36

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #43

+1000. GoneFishin Sep 2013 #47

"I voted for him twice, I think he is a horrible Democratic president..." ProSense Sep 2013 #48

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #49

Oh, you're just jealous, cuz Pro didn't provide lots of pretty blue links like usual. CrispyQ Sep 2013 #54

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #67

+1000 bobduca Sep 2013 #69

Hey, ProSense Sep 2013 #70

Post removed Post removed Sep 2013 #74

"You know exactly who I am..." ProSense Sep 2013 #77

Post removed Post removed Sep 2013 #80

I should have said, ProSense Sep 2013 #81

Another one bites the dust. William769 Sep 2013 #85

LOL! ProSense Sep 2013 #61

oh boohoohoo. cali Sep 2013 #58

"if you don't like the title that's a great fucking reason not to change it." ProSense Sep 2013 #62

Someone upthread suggested it. I thought about it. try reading, pro. cali Sep 2013 #68

I define real progressives as the people your think tank targets, LOL grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #92

if mtasselin Sep 2013 #38

We the People, they the corporations . . . CrispyQ Sep 2013 #56

K & R !!! WillyT Sep 2013 #39

Perverse, this is so off the charts, shameful. Jefferson23 Sep 2013 #44

The end of the Open Internet woo me with science Sep 2013 #53

What complex trade agreements are EVER negotiated in public? randome Sep 2013 #64

Trust in the corporations who are privy to the deals bobduca Sep 2013 #75

When was the last one that brought more prosperity to the majority of Americans? TheKentuckian Sep 2013 #171

Thanks for the link BuelahWitch Sep 2013 #150

But didn't you see the photo of the pres with a little kid? WCLinolVir Sep 2013 #57

So true - he is very likeable.. polichick Sep 2013 #97

So far, the defenses range from Marr Sep 2013 #72

Don't forget the hopeful gem under my post. woo me with science Sep 2013 #78

lol Marr Sep 2013 #84

"looking forward and not back on war crimes is the compassionate move" MisterP Sep 2013 #104

ACA vs. TPP GeorgeGist Sep 2013 #76

What a great way to get an intelligent discussion started ecstatic Sep 2013 #83

I took it that the OP was calling out to defenders of the TPP to step up & defend it. Demit Sep 2013 #93

Disagreement accompanied by promotion, defense, or silence in solidarity is agreement. TheKentuckian Sep 2013 #102

You are exactly right. And now that so many bashers have been proven wrong on issue after issue Number23 Sep 2013 #112

Did the juvenility keep you from telling us why the TPP is a good idea? Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #119

The behavior of so many posters here keep lots of conversations from even getting started Number23 Sep 2013 #133

Please take the time to enlighten us about how great TPP is. Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #134

You're right!! Imagine that Number23 Sep 2013 #137

I really can't wait for someone to explain TPP's greatness to me. Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #138

So yea why not ask the question in the BOG ...and get banned for it. L0oniX Sep 2013 #143

Lol, sad, funny, and true. Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #151

Cali, thank you for your tireless posting about TPP. woo me with science Sep 2013 #87

Nobody is at your beck and call. Hate on that haters. great white snark Sep 2013 #94

huh? who said anyone was at my beck and call? cali Sep 2013 #96

maybe pics of the first family's dog is more your speed. frylock Sep 2013 #99

Do you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #100

So why won't you answer? Do you support the TPP? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #113

Do you support TPP? C'mon it's not that difficult. nt Union Scribe Sep 2013 #136

HE'S NOT THE NOMINEE!!1 frylock Sep 2013 #95

He's going to need Republican support and he'll probably have to bargain for it. pa28 Sep 2013 #105

Thanks to Cali, other "Fringle Left" posters here at DU, and the "Professional Left".. bvar22 Sep 2013 #114

DUrec ...this should be its own op. L0oniX Sep 2013 #145

I love it! "The Church of Free Trade!" We will be the Victims on the Altar! KoKo Sep 2013 #146

He may want it, but if we have anything to say about it, HE WON'T GET IT. CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2013 #115

"The TPP is double plus good but I won't tell you why because you hate Obama and are so juvenile" Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #120

^^^^this^^^^ L0oniX Sep 2013 #144

He originally campaigned that he would look into NAFTA, B Calm Sep 2013 #121

Thanks Cali. Now, everyone who supports the TPP please raise their hand. And state why. Celefin Sep 2013 #122

k and r...nt xiamiam Sep 2013 #125

Went to whitehouse.gov to send an email fadedrose Sep 2013 #128

kick woo me with science Sep 2013 #129

kick woo me with science Sep 2013 #130

I'll kick again, because this is so damned improtant. bvar22 Sep 2013 #147

See post 57. woo me with science Sep 2013 #152

I must have missed that. bvar22 Sep 2013 #156

Aside from "well, we have not seen it yet", I don't think they have been given djean111 Sep 2013 #153

even the loyal obama supporters cannot defend this noiretextatique Sep 2013 #154

k&r nt steve2470 Sep 2013 #163

The Defenders.... Bluenorthwest Sep 2013 #168

cali, cali, cali...this a new day, and we need to level the global playing field. Zorra Sep 2013 #178