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dairydog91

(951 posts)
150. How can a portion of government spending "not be part of the deficit"?
Tue Sep 24, 2013, 01:42 PM
Sep 2013

Deficit is the excess of government spending over government revenue. More to the point, if SS benefits exceed what SS gets in revenue through the payroll tax, SS must draw on its trust fund. The trust fund has legal value, but it's "worthless" in terms of removing SS from other government spending because it contains non-marketable assets. If SS held commodities, or stocks, or something else that was marketable, it could sell them to third parties in exchange for cash. It can do no such thing with what it actually has. Hence, in order to cash in the assets in its trust fund, SS must exchange them with the Treasury for tax revenue, borrowed money, or printed money. I'm really wondering how people can claim that a government program directly drawing money from Treasury is "not part of the deficit". Just because there is a legal obligation for Treasury to hand out money when SS comes calling for it does not somehow mean that SS is not drawing from government revenue. As it is, the SS non-marketable securities can only be cashed in with the government, and the government has a legal obligation to exchange them for cash. It's a good guarantee for people on the SS program, since it ensures that trillions of dollars will be coming to them unless the government refuses to honor those securities, but cashing in the securities will very much be a part of federal spending, and hence "part of the deficit".

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+infinity Cleita Sep 2013 #1
Unfortunately it's not just Teabaggers who are attacking SS sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #2
k&r for the truth. n/t Laelth Sep 2013 #3
You are correct with regards to the deficit. MH1 Sep 2013 #4
Well, you are correct in that to keep the fund going and able to pay sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #5
Very true. All projections and dissembly aside, without a healthy economy everything is in trouble bhikkhu Sep 2013 #16
We don't seem to have a problem drawing from the general fund if we want to send missiles into jtuck004 Sep 2013 #22
Is a CLEAR statement defending SS too much to ask from our current Democratic Leadership? bvar22 Sep 2013 #6
It seemed easier to get some clarity on SS during the campaigns. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #10
We should not have to hear one of our own offer any SS cuts. It's disgusting! L0oniX Sep 2013 #50
K&R DeSwiss Sep 2013 #7
Has this president ever made that statement? sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #12
Not that I've found either. DeSwiss Sep 2013 #23
Personally, I don't consider DOUBLING the percentage of income paid truebluegreen Sep 2013 #30
I hear ya. DeSwiss Sep 2013 #34
Tweak?? Is that where you wiggle your hips? nm rhett o rick Sep 2013 #124
Even the stupid presidential candidate George W. Bush Enthusiast Sep 2013 #46
I remember that well. I remember Obama objecting to forming a Deficit sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #60
If a company used accounting like this, we would call for their heads joeglow3 Sep 2013 #8
Can you explain? Accounting like what? Sorry, your meaning isn't sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #9
He's refering to Intra-Governmental Tansfers wercal Sep 2013 #18
It's unrelated, except that it's entirely related Recursion Sep 2013 #94
Hey, I'm agreeing with you. wercal Sep 2013 #110
It is not false. If the Fed Govt gets itself into debt, then has to borrow sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #127
Why are you bringing in "fault"? Recursion Sep 2013 #128
It only causes a defict . . . HuskyOffset Sep 2013 #131
Because many here cannot credibly discuss economics and accounting ...... oldhippie Sep 2013 #135
'It'?? What is 'it'?? What raises the Deficit is the Fed Government spending sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #140
All of those increase the deficit Recursion Sep 2013 #141
Yes, they do. But you haven't answered my question. 'What has SS spent sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #142
In a nutshell, nothing yet. dairydog91 Sep 2013 #151
Then the thing to do is to take a few steps, as has happened in the past, sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #156
I'll say - but it's worthless to point out the facts. Yo_Mama Sep 2013 #13
Who is this 'they' you are speaking of? And what are these facts? sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #15
SS does add to the deficit, it is part of the government, and so forth Yo_Mama Sep 2013 #27
Excuse me but you are wrong. SS doesn't need Bonds. The only reason sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #31
I'll say it again, I will be stripped of my CPA certificate if I used this accounting joeglow3 Sep 2013 #39
So what you are saying is that Govt Bonds are worthless? sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #52
Where does the govt get to money to redeem the bonds? joeglow3 Sep 2013 #55
We know where the Govt gets all of its money. But what does this have sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #62
You are a lost cause joeglow3 Sep 2013 #89
Could you try that again? It must be me I have no clue what you sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #92
So, if a company raided a pension fund and put in IOU's, you would be cool with it? joeglow3 Sep 2013 #96
Now you are making some progress ..... oldhippie Sep 2013 #98
Lol, I never set myself up without a purpose. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #100
You will probably wait for a long time .... oldhippie Sep 2013 #102
I understand perfectly. I understand the attempt to tie SS to the Deficit. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #105
China doesn't care. Igel Sep 2013 #87
Ah, no. That's pure crappola. Your post is defintely ALL WRONG. DeSwiss Sep 2013 #36
We have had this discussion a dozen times .... oldhippie Sep 2013 #28
Yes we have had this discussion a lot. Explain please how sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #29
No. oldhippie Sep 2013 #32
Yo Mama was completely wrong, see my correction of the errors s/he sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #35
Made my point ..... oldhippie Sep 2013 #37
Does that mean you agree with me? I don't see you refuting anything sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #72
No. I'm not wasting my time .... oldhippie Sep 2013 #78
I fail to see how standing up for your pov is ever a waste of time. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #79
And you just changed the subject ...... oldhippie Sep 2013 #82
It's all part of the anti-SS rhetoric we've been dealing with for decades sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #84
And it is very clear that no one ever will .... oldhippie Sep 2013 #86
Well they are always free to try. So far, I have seen nothing to sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #88
And something tells me in your mind no one ever will joeglow3 Sep 2013 #95
Wow. joeglow3 Sep 2013 #40
Yup. Eyes closed, fingers in ears, and singing ...... oldhippie Sep 2013 #44
Try me. juajen Sep 2013 #117
I'm never done defending my positions on issues, unless sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #73
The problem is that you don't have to defend something when faced with a brick wall. Igel Sep 2013 #90
You left out the interest you would be putting in the cookie jar btw. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #101
This is not true. Curmudgeoness Sep 2013 #58
If they raided the pension, spent the money and gave it IOU's joeglow3 Sep 2013 #91
Years ago, I was told that you cannot compare Curmudgeoness Sep 2013 #103
That is bullshit people say as a cop out joeglow3 Sep 2013 #113
Period end of story! Phlem Sep 2013 #11
Obama campaigned on no cuts and raising the cap if necessary. pa28 Sep 2013 #14
He could start by not ever again mentioning SS in the same sentence sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #21
People forget that employers pay into in too. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #17
No, they don't forget that. Many of us here who ever ran a small sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #19
People who have been employees their whole life never see that. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #26
I don't see where that is relevant really. There is a lot the general sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #33
Republicans used to talk about "shoreing up the Social Security Trust Fund" but now,... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #45
Good points. I hadn't thought of it that way. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #115
DUrec. n/t PowerToThePeople Sep 2013 #20
The motives are pretty clear, don't you think? There exists no good reason to implement Jefferson23 Sep 2013 #24
Yes, to many people the motives are pretty clear. And it's a shame to see sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #138
Yes, it's been a propaganda war for a long time, and we should all be vigilant Jefferson23 Sep 2013 #139
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Sep 2013 #25
K&R. Thank you. JDPriestly Sep 2013 #38
This needs to be in every letters to the editors page in every newspaper Half-Century Man Sep 2013 #41
Both sides and all the think tanks insist that Social Security is driving the deficit. Enthusiast Sep 2013 #42
If I'm owed a million dollars, but my bank acct is empty, I'm still broke 7962 Sep 2013 #43
Sticking to the Republican position on this are you? Enthusiast Sep 2013 #47
True. Fortunately the SS Fund has no fear of that happening sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #48
Congress spends the SS money and replaces it with T-bills from the treasury. Loaning money to itself 7962 Sep 2013 #61
Well our other creditors like China, Japan et al don't seem to have any sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #67
You cant buy groceries with IOUs. bvar22 Sep 2013 #54
A grocery store will take a dollar bill, not a note from my debtor 7962 Sep 2013 #56
My grocery store will CASH my Social Security check, bvar22 Sep 2013 #213
Keep laughing. Nothing I've said is "anti-Social Security", and neither am I. 7962 Sep 2013 #214
Stop it! Curmudgeoness Sep 2013 #57
Stop what? Is it not the truth that the govt borrows from SS? Is that a lie? 7962 Sep 2013 #64
Treasury bonds are not going to be reneged on. Curmudgeoness Sep 2013 #69
Its STILL tax money to be repaid at a much later date 7962 Sep 2013 #74
They're not T bills. Igel Sep 2013 #93
I cannot believe this debate is happening on DU. Curmudgeoness Sep 2013 #104
Why? I dont see how this is "right wing" at all. The money isnt there. Its NOT THERE. 7962 Sep 2013 #123
Wtf do you mean 'the money isn't there?' Do you know anything at all about the SS Fund? All of sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #162
I did say raise the cap. But the surplus is not in the fund as it should be; its BONDS 7962 Sep 2013 #165
Who is to blame for the Govt having to pay off its debts, to SS, to China and everyone else it has sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #168
If you want to place blame, thats a whole different thread! Plenty to go around. 7962 Sep 2013 #179
It's amazing, isn't it? I don't EVER recall having to defend these Heritage Foundation memes sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #171
It saddens me. Curmudgeoness Sep 2013 #182
You fucking well can if you are a government with the sole power of issuing currency n/t eridani Sep 2013 #76
Simply printing money will be counter productive and cause a massive devaluation of the dollar mythology Sep 2013 #129
Yeah, right. Just like the quantitative easements resulted in runaway inflation eridani Sep 2013 #144
Shit, then lets just print a billion dollars for every citizen joeglow3 Sep 2013 #149
You'd be surprised at how many people think that would work 7962 Sep 2013 #166
You believe that because you are owed money, the guy that owes you is exempt from paying Dragonfli Sep 2013 #112
Of course not. But I cant pay bills today with a promise to pay in the future from another source. 7962 Sep 2013 #132
I think I understand you, but believe you have been a bit misinformed by the barrage of planned and Dragonfli Sep 2013 #145
I'll have to google Pete Peterson, I don't know who he is. 7962 Sep 2013 #152
I guess you don't get it, but I tried really hard to explain it, nothing was spent on something else Dragonfli Sep 2013 #155
Excellent post, Dragonfli. This is EXACTLY what they are trying to sell to the sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #157
And how is that in any way relevant to the SS Fund? sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #161
You may have to own a tv network in order to spread that truth effectively. L0oniX Sep 2013 #49
Nice! nt adirondacker Sep 2013 #59
Not SS, but the loss of income tax revenue due to outsourcing of jobs increases the deficit. AdHocSolver Sep 2013 #51
There is no money in the "trust fund". Every penny has already been spent on other things. Nye Bevan Sep 2013 #53
Isn't it odd how this issue has come to the forefront over the last few years? Fumesucker Sep 2013 #63
I'm glad you're saying it, since youve got a heckuva lot more posts than I do. 7962 Sep 2013 #65
Funny how much interest on those 'non-marketable bonds' sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #66
"As for how the Govt can repay its debt to SS" is the key sentence in your reply. Nye Bevan Sep 2013 #106
The Govt had not had to repay the debt to SS because the Fund has sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #109
To clarify, the SS taxes that people pay are used to pay benefits to current recipients, Nye Bevan Sep 2013 #111
And the way to do that is to make sure we are not outsourcing sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #114
Now if you can just get those who are giving ME hell to understand that. 7962 Sep 2013 #133
You need a fairly thick skin to go against the "DU line" on issues such as Social Security. Nye Bevan Sep 2013 #137
+10000!! 7962 Sep 2013 #143
Really? Can you explain why asking for the rich to pay their fair share sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #158
Those are two different issues joeglow3 Sep 2013 #169
Where are those facts? I've been up and down this thread unlike some btw, responding to sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #170
Your view is flawed as it is stuck in theory and not reality joeglow3 Sep 2013 #172
More fuzzy numbers. Answer one question. When has SS needed to cash in any of its bonds? sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #173
SS's unfunded liability is over $20 trillion. joeglow3 Sep 2013 #175
So much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #176
You are a lost cause joeglow3 Sep 2013 #177
Then you have no answer to my questions! I CAN answer them for you if you like? n/t sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #178
You claim a fictitious "source of income" as proof joeglow3 Sep 2013 #180
You would lose your license if you advised the Fed Govt to borrow money to pay for sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #183
Two things lobbed at you that should be swatted down. PETRUS Sep 2013 #184
Exactly, thank you for pointing this out. I know that is BS, so does every rational person with just sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #185
You might want to look up that GDP number your self joeglow3 Sep 2013 #187
You bet! PETRUS Sep 2013 #203
What do you think our GDP is? joeglow3 Sep 2013 #186
Apples to apples PETRUS Sep 2013 #189
Even if that is you basis, you are waaaay off joeglow3 Sep 2013 #192
You are wrong again. PETRUS Sep 2013 #194
No, YOU are wrong joeglow3 Sep 2013 #195
Ooo, jargon! PETRUS Sep 2013 #197
Ohhh, now YOU are busting out the tried and true tactic of calling someone right wing joeglow3 Sep 2013 #198
I did no such thing. That's your inference. PETRUS Sep 2013 #199
As a 15 year CPA, it is based on accounting principles joeglow3 Sep 2013 #200
Your appeal to authority is not very compelling Cal Carpenter Sep 2013 #201
I have explained it multiple times in this thread joeglow3 Sep 2013 #204
Musta missed it Cal Carpenter Sep 2013 #208
What "type of accounting?" PETRUS Sep 2013 #202
I am a CPA joeglow3 Sep 2013 #205
That is not an answer to my question. Reread and try again. nt PETRUS Sep 2013 #207
That is the same defense mechanism my 5 year old uses joeglow3 Sep 2013 #188
I'm still not seeing any answers to my question but that is your choice. SS still has nothing to do sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #190
And you seem to miss why they haven't "cashed" any in joeglow3 Sep 2013 #191
Well, now we're getting somewhere. 'The reality is that the government doesn't have the cash sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #193
That is what I said in one of my first posts....and it is irrelevant joeglow3 Sep 2013 #196
So, your solution to this mess created by the Fed Govt is to make the LENDERS pay for the debts sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #209
So your solution to this mess is to say fuck our kids and grand kids joeglow3 Sep 2013 #210
Sure, that's what I've been saying when asking to protect future generations from the theft sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #211
Where did I say that was the solution? joeglow3 Sep 2013 #212
Because this cannot be said often enough... me b zola Sep 2013 #68
Thanks, I agree! sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #70
Even if SS was a part of the Federal budget, Maedhros Sep 2013 #71
it's not empty--it's full and they want to bleed it dry yurbud Sep 2013 #75
They want to privatize it and gamble it away on Wall St. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #77
Washington seems to run on two rules: first, do no harm (to the wealthy) and second the only reforms yurbud Sep 2013 #80
SS is a political club DustyJoe Sep 2013 #81
Interesting. I missed that last time. And would agree it was being sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #83
Thanks for bringing this up again Sabrina. K&R! nt adirondacker Sep 2013 #85
You're still mixing up deficit and debt. All cash flow whatsoever affects the deficit Recursion Sep 2013 #97
You are correct. Kaleva Sep 2013 #99
If when FDR had set up Social Security, he had specified that the Trust Fund be invested in gold, Nye Bevan Sep 2013 #107
The lock box was Gore's worst idea, and the name makes no sense Recursion Sep 2013 #108
Well, I was sure wrong on what I thought he meant! 7962 Sep 2013 #134
All cash flow? pa28 Sep 2013 #116
They're hardly worthless. They're worth 2.5 trillion Recursion Sep 2013 #118
Agreed. I've heard that argument used here and I'm glad you aren't joining in. pa28 Sep 2013 #119
Easing raises interest rates Recursion Sep 2013 #120
Yes, according to the pre-zero bound theories you learned in one level economics. pa28 Sep 2013 #121
Let me be clear, that is not my theory. I'm specifically agnostic on easing. Recursion Sep 2013 #122
No I am not mixing up 'debt' and 'deficit'. I am saying that the lie being told that SS is in any sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #163
So, you agree, SS does increase the annual deficit? Recursion Sep 2013 #164
The Fed Govt is responsible for the Deficit. What is so hard for you to understand about that? sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #167
True, but as Obama's former chief of staff said: "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2013 #125
K&R nt raouldukelives Sep 2013 #126
DURec leftstreet Sep 2013 #130
That is a true statement...... BlueJac Sep 2013 #136
This thread is hilarious... SomethingFishy Sep 2013 #146
You got it right. The convoluted attempts to try to tie SS to the sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #147
How can a portion of government spending "not be part of the deficit"? dairydog91 Sep 2013 #150
That's correct. Conversely, when SS revenue exceeds SS payouts the effect is to reduce the deficit. PoliticAverse Sep 2013 #153
What portion of SS has come from the Fed Govt, how does a fund that has sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #159
The attempts to cut SS have nothing to do with the deficit, either. Orsino Sep 2013 #148
k & R! n/t wildbilln864 Sep 2013 #154
apparently a few posters disagree with this premise steve2470 Sep 2013 #160
President Johnson One_Life_To_Give Sep 2013 #174
Happy to keep this kicked to the top n/t Oilwellian Sep 2013 #181
Recommend! Amazing how we still see this SS=DEFICIT CRAP KoKo Sep 2013 #206
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Social Security has ZERO ...»Reply #150