General Discussion

Vox Moi

(546 posts)

127. An opportunity lost

Sat Sep 28, 2013, 12:04 PM

Sep 2013

Bin Laden: unarmed, old, alone in the room.
The single most important intelligence resource on terrorism in the world ...
A chance to bring the man to trial and show the world what a despicable miscreant he truly is ...
A chance to show the world that we stand for a rule of law and are not afraid to bringing truth to light ...

And we kill him and dump his body in the ocean like some mafia hit.

... leaving those with doubts still in doubt
... leaving conspiracy buss with plenty to chew on

Even Saddam got a trial. Even top Nazis.

Let me also say this:
In a war, intelligence is of great value and many lives are lost in order get it ... spies, patrols who are ordered to bring back prisoners, recon missions... the cold calculus of war is this: you take risks and accept casualties to get intelligence because it can help you win the war.

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Seymour Hersh: Story About Killing Osama Bin Laden is One Big Lie [View all] babsbunny Sep 2013 OP

OBL was likely *executed* in cold blood. The story about a shoot out is obviously bogus. Romulox Sep 2013 #1

Why is anything 'likely' or 'obvious'? randome Sep 2013 #3

What story about a "shoot out"? AlbertCat Sep 2013 #128

I believe the WH itself said things happened differently from first reported. randome Sep 2013 #199

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I'm trying to imagine Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #4

Summary execution is a war crime. If you are arguing "Might makes right", well, there is no need Romulox Sep 2013 #6

I'm not saying might makes right. I'm saying nobody cares; including UBL Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #8

That's an obviously false statement, as you and I (and Mr. Hersh) are discussing it. Romulox Sep 2013 #11

Nail, meet hammer Hydra Sep 2013 #33

Obviously? You keep using that word... demwing Sep 2013 #68

We are all here, discussing. So "nobody cares" is just a silly non-starter. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #73

"The story about a shoot out is obviously bogus" demwing Sep 2013 #77

Ahem..."White House changes story: Bin Laden unarmed" Romulox Sep 2013 #82

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They knew he was incapacitated on the ground when he was shot in the chest, and killed. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #90

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You were there? How do you know these details? n/t pnwmom Sep 2013 #110

Jay Carney is a spokesman for the White House. The story covers his remarks. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #112

Sounds like a summary execution to me. But why the surprise? Th1onein Sep 2013 #258

Which proves your earlier statement wrong. Having access to his body wouldn't have pnwmom Sep 2013 #106

First, you have zero evidence there was an execution, summary or otherwise. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #84

The accounts of the SEALs, posted below, are evidence. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #87

Nope Shivering Jemmy Sep 2013 #104

Touch�. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #113

Are we less civilized than Israel or France? nt kelliekat44 Sep 2013 #94

Due process is for crimes creeksneakers2 Sep 2013 #142

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Summary execution of pirates is and always has been legal Recursion Sep 2013 #48

LOL. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #55

What? Recursion Sep 2013 #124

Well apparently, it would not have been OK for treestar Sep 2013 #171

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It's a crime only if someone treats it as such. Nobody ever will in this case. leveymg Sep 2013 #57

Too true. And the whole truth about 9/11? Down to the bottom of the sea. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #65

Quick question - You believe the story of OBLs death is a lie demwing Sep 2013 #74

It probably happened as the SEALs who I quote, below, said it did. There was no shootout with OBL. Romulox Sep 2013 #76

Even if there was a shootout, they could have captured him - if that was their mission. leveymg Sep 2013 #96

Because there's no history of terrorists blowing themselves up? mythology Sep 2013 #269

High-risk is part of that job. If they wanted to capture him alive, he'd be in a cell right now. leveymg Sep 2013 #270

Hersh didn't say the official story is "almost all a lie." onenote Sep 2013 #297

You're getting into petty semantics and ascribing your own conclusion to me. leveymg Sep 2013 #298

You are saying the truth about 911 would have been with OBL treestar Sep 2013 #193

This whole thing put the kibosh on Bin Laden killed in Dec 2001 reports 2banon Sep 2013 #240

And where do the lies end? demwing Sep 2013 #242

Did he raise his hands and cry out "I surrender!"? EX500rider Sep 2013 #216

Summary execution happens after you surrender... EX500rider Sep 2013 #260

Flying airplanes into skyscrapers is probably a war crime, too. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #266

Like that matters to the "blame America first" crowd. zappaman Sep 2013 #272

The threads at the time of OBL's killing were something else, indeed. Warren DeMontague Sep 2013 #274

I remember being quite embaressed that I shared a party affiliation with those zappaman Sep 2013 #276

yet, those in the same party calling Obama a war criminal Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #291

Wow 2banon Sep 2013 #282

Also, why lie if it doesn't matter? Romulox Sep 2013 #7

"They lied cuz it's illegal, we know it's illegal cuz they lied" is a circular argument. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #9

When you can't argue the points an opponent has made, simply argue against one of your own creation. Romulox Sep 2013 #12

No, I think he's got you there. DireStrike Sep 2013 #32

It's called a strawman argument when you attribute something to your opponent only Romulox Sep 2013 #41

"the same poster has ignored the far more substantive response to him, above" Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #64

You had time to put quotation marks around something I hadn't said. That takes a second or two! nt Romulox Sep 2013 #66

Whatever, dude. If you're that hungry for a win... Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2013 #86

That's just how quotes work. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #88

The NSA proves you incorrect. Hydra Sep 2013 #37

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You're seriously misinterpreting that story. He was not executed. DevonRex Sep 2013 #215

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The firsthand accounts of the soldiers who participated... Romulox Sep 2013 #16

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They should have called an ambulance, first. randome Sep 2013 #20

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Oh, I understand the concept of treating our enemes as well as ourselves. randome Sep 2013 #24

To shoot and kill a wounded, unarmed man, you mean? nt Romulox Sep 2013 #23

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That's a War Crime, irrespective of whether you think "he had it coming". nt Romulox Sep 2013 #27

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Again, if facts don't matter, it's all just "might makes right", and no discussion is needed. Romulox Sep 2013 #34

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If you "don't care", why are you here, arguing? nt Romulox Sep 2013 #43

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It's a dumb question, as SEALs are not lawyers or judges. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #47

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Neither are most of us, but we are all bound by the rules of law. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #52

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We are signatories to the Geneva Conventions, as well as bound by the general laws of war. Those Romulox Sep 2013 #71

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This is why I mentioned your low post count: discussion forums don't work this way. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #85

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No. I mean discussions are back and forths. You can't ignore points I've made, and questions I've Romulox Sep 2013 #109

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This isn't a court of law. The standards of evidence for discussion are much lower. Again, Romulox Sep 2013 #116

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There is "evidence" of a War Crime. "Proof" is determined in a Court of Law. This is tedious. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #131

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Members with low post counts can't question Dr Hobbitstein Sep 2013 #121

If you want to take that route... I've been here years longer than you... Buddyblazon Sep 2013 #175

US criminal law does not apply out side of the US treestar Sep 2013 #134

You are simply wrong on this point. US criminal law absolutely applies to US citizens acting Romulox Sep 2013 #136

No you are wrong treestar Sep 2013 #138

The PROTECT Act of 2003 (Sex Tourism) is a small example of overseas behavior criminalized Romulox Sep 2013 #145

Oh really so we are going to go into say Uganda treestar Sep 2013 #149

The overseas behavior is prosecuted in the US. Really...why argue points if you don't know Romulox Sep 2013 #150

Has anyone been forced from another country to the US treestar Sep 2013 #151

That's called "extradition". This is basic stuff, getting outside the scope of this discussion. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #152

What countries will voluntarily extradite their citizens to the US treestar Sep 2013 #155

If you don't read what I'm posting, I don't see how we can discuss anything. Romulox Sep 2013 #160

But not non-US citizens treestar Sep 2013 #162

Are you really unfamiliar with the Geneva Conventions? The Trials at Nuremberg??? Romulox Sep 2013 #165

International law is a different thing from a US statute treestar Sep 2013 #169

You should read the actual text of the statute, instead of a summary jberryhill Sep 2013 #255

I don't recall U.S. declaring war on Pakistan... when did that happen? 2banon Sep 2013 #249

It didn't. treestar Sep 2013 #251

Indeed. Thank You Romulox! 2banon Sep 2013 #283

Not in war. treestar Sep 2013 #132

We weren't at war with Pakistan. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #137

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Pakistan did not see it as an attack against their nation treestar Sep 2013 #154

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Then it doesn't sound like "war" at all. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #161

There are allies in wars treestar Sep 2013 #163

actually this is not how I remembered Pakistan's reactions. 2banon Sep 2013 #281

Well treestar Sep 2013 #303

That's an untrue statement. DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2013 #302

No, but the 2001 AUMF gave the president clear authority to act. This is silly. tritsofme Sep 2013 #195

Didn't have to be at war with Pakistan.... EX500rider Sep 2013 #222

A "war crime" is determined by international consensus demwing Sep 2013 #92

"Might makes right" is what we've had for most of human history. My real concern is for the truth Romulox Sep 2013 #93

So you're saying that you don't believe bin Laden was responsible? demwing Sep 2013 #99

I'm saying what's in my posts. I'm not going to refute arguments I haven't made. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #117

Then maybe just answer the question demwing Sep 2013 #184

Romulox, I know you can't reply...but at least consider the following demwing Sep 2013 #231

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Ahh...thanks, will edit my post /nt. demwing Sep 2013 #238

Might includes taking controls of a plane by force treestar Sep 2013 #139

Actually I don't think it is.. EX500rider Sep 2013 #220

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The facts that OBL knew dotymed Sep 2013 #98

Well if they are trained to commit war crimes zeemike Sep 2013 #101

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I said if. zeemike Sep 2013 #120

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That's what you do on a raid into a enemy compound.. EX500rider Sep 2013 #224

You mean like the SS? zeemike Sep 2013 #241

"You mean like the SS?" EX500rider Sep 2013 #246

And also killed them before they had the chance to surrender. zeemike Sep 2013 #250

So I guess you don't see the difference... EX500rider Sep 2013 #256

No I see the difference. zeemike Sep 2013 #259

Killing enemies who haven't surrendered... EX500rider Sep 2013 #261

And they are enemies whether armed or not? zeemike Sep 2013 #271

yes, members of AQ are self-described enemies of the US... EX500rider Sep 2013 #275

All of this makes me sad. zeemike Sep 2013 #277

You aren't interested in proof at all but rather shutting down the whole discussion. TheKentuckian Sep 2013 #166

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If that SEAL gathered the women in his arms to absorb a tblue37 Sep 2013 #28

Read the accounts--OBL was the last male "accounted for". He was killed in cold blood Romulox Sep 2013 #30

It certainly silences the issue of questioning Bushco about what happened on 9/11 Hydra Sep 2013 #38

OBL would not have much credibility treestar Sep 2013 #157

Why wouldn't he have credibility? Hydra Sep 2013 #168

Really? A person who admitted he was behind a plot treestar Sep 2013 #170

WTH? Hydra Sep 2013 #173

Like OBL would have told the truth? treestar Sep 2013 #194

Like further upthread, you are missing the point Hydra Sep 2013 #208

Alive he would not have told us a blasted thing treestar Sep 2013 #252

Well, I don't assume that, because as I said, I am not convinced tblue37 Sep 2013 #46

We dont know other than what we've been told. It would be nice if we could rhett o rick Sep 2013 #179

"We dont know other than what we've been told." Enthusiast Sep 2013 #293

Authoritarians think they know what's best for us and treat us accordingly. rhett o rick Sep 2013 #295

Hersch has a checkered past? Really? 2banon Sep 2013 #244

i'm not sure you can say killed in cold blood about obl samsingh Sep 2013 #15

I have not an ounce of pity. But this is how myths and propaganda is made. nt Romulox Sep 2013 #18

I think Hersh is saying the WHOLE story is a steaming pile.... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #17

We won't know that until someone . . . brush Sep 2013 #102

People outside the compound... solarhydrocan Sep 2013 #187

The story is not "obviously bogus." Bin Laden's body wouldn't have proved anything. pnwmom Sep 2013 #103

Also, no country would accept his body. delta17 Sep 2013 #207

given that Saddam was placed in a spider hole for American soldiers roguevalley Sep 2013 #147

obviously bogus.... links please. spanone Sep 2013 #182

You say based on nothing but feelings. nt geek tragedy Sep 2013 #188

But we have proof: We buried him at sea. Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #2

Yep G_j Sep 2013 #5

He's obviously a Rand Paul/Putin supporter..... go west young man Sep 2013 #49

More like an Alex Jones type at this point in his career. nt geek tragedy Sep 2013 #192

He read it on the internet, so it must be true. Lasher Sep 2013 #10

et tu seymour warrior1 Sep 2013 #13

hersch shoudl back up his talk elehhhhna Sep 2013 #53

hersch rso Sep 2013 #69

He's making an ass of himself BeyondGeography Sep 2013 #22

Didn't he run with that story of "hundreds of US soldiers killed" in that airfield attack? Recursion Sep 2013 #26

Hersh is correct about journalism in the U.S.. nt LWolf Sep 2013 #31

No argument there. randome Sep 2013 #35

I don't care much about how OBL was killed. Shrike47 Sep 2013 #36

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Why would you suspect that? leftstreet Sep 2013 #80

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No, you said they were glad he's dead leftstreet Sep 2013 #91

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Good Americans are scared of official boogeymen, dontchaknow? bobduca Sep 2013 #217

I don't care either. Kaleva Sep 2013 #45

LOL, yes, lets be ok with executions for ones we deem really really bad. n-t Logical Sep 2013 #300

Amusing responses in this thread Hydra Sep 2013 #40

I'll say. Tremendous redirection. One Big Lie = Killed in Cold Blood???? Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #56

Hersh didn't say specifically what they lied about Hydra Sep 2013 #63

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Indeed. Posters with a few dozen posts strutting about in a "Mission Accomplished" pose... nt Romulox Sep 2013 #58

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No, see as your post count increases so does your wisdom!! lol n/t EX500rider Sep 2013 #226

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Thanks for posting the info from the troops further up Hydra Sep 2013 #72

Now you've resorted to ad hominem treestar Sep 2013 #164

Your response is amusing themaguffin Sep 2013 #78

They never bothered to bring a legal case against him Hydra Sep 2013 #118

This is a case where military action was needed, not a trial, for reasons I already stated themaguffin Sep 2013 #125

*lol* Hydra Sep 2013 #130

due process for whom? LOL indeed. themaguffin Sep 2013 #141

Exaggerate much? Doc Holliday Sep 2013 #114

The rule of law applies to the innocent and the guilty equally. Romulox Sep 2013 #119

Looks like I got my answer Hydra Sep 2013 #133

In a civil society treestar Sep 2013 #167

Except on a raid into a enemy compound... EX500rider Sep 2013 #233

Thanks for proving my point Hydra Sep 2013 #126

What law do you think protects OBL while in Pakistan? EX500rider Sep 2013 #234

So if Putin declares you an enemy of his state Hydra Sep 2013 #265

Well if i mastermind 4,000 dead Russian civilians... EX500rider Sep 2013 #268

No, it's just funny how people whine about it geek tragedy Sep 2013 #189

as long as a D does it, it is fine noiretextatique Sep 2013 #225

I didn't realize Hersh was with the seal team Politicub Sep 2013 #50

He was also there when we decided to invade Iran BeyondGeography Sep 2013 #62

I'm grateful we didn't take the bastard prisoner and Ilsa Sep 2013 #54

It was a kill mission from the start Botany Sep 2013 #70

ITA on all comments. Ilsa Sep 2013 #97

that pretty much sums up what happened in two sentences..... madrchsod Sep 2013 #111

Meanwhile back on the Farm,,, Cryptoad Sep 2013 #59

completely aside from anything Hersh has said, G_j Sep 2013 #60

He's dead. 99Forever Sep 2013 #81

I am glad the CT posse hasnt decided to try to censor this OP. rhett o rick Sep 2013 #107

I'm a proponent of giving sunlight to CT nuts like this. tritsofme Sep 2013 #197

I think people that are "politically liberal" welcome all points of view. They feel they rhett o rick Sep 2013 #203

bull chit! stonecutter357 Sep 2013 #122

An opportunity lost Vox Moi Sep 2013 #127

Yes, a monumental opportunity whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #176

I'm guessing you don't know whether he was unarmed or alone unless you were there. cherokeeprogressive Sep 2013 #181

The account I read says he was unarmed but that isn't the point Vox Moi Sep 2013 #209

"The account I read..." cherokeeprogressive Sep 2013 #278

Well put post. go west young man Sep 2013 #292

Right... EX500rider Sep 2013 #229

I'm still running into Morans on YouTube claiming Iraq had WMDs. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #135

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Welcome to DU!!! gopiscrap Sep 2013 #180

Was a star put on the wall when OBL got stiffed? HoosierCowboy Sep 2013 #143

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"official story" G_j Sep 2013 #158

Tend to agree. TheKentuckian Sep 2013 #174

Not a misadventure Hydra Sep 2013 #178

+ 1! welcome to the DU! n/t wildbilln864 Sep 2013 #296

OBL's last words whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #159

Yup Hydra Sep 2013 #177

No, we just don't get our news from Alex geek tragedy Sep 2013 #191

It's interesting you assume all doubts about the official story originated whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #198

Sure, you're claiming there's a great big conspiracy surrounding bin Laden's death geek tragedy Sep 2013 #201

What? whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #202

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Oh, oops, well then whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #206

Okay, what impeccable source provides your view that Hillary Clinton's State Department geek tragedy Sep 2013 #218

*lol* Hydra Sep 2013 #210

So, you think Obama's in on the cover up of the fact that the US government intentionally geek tragedy Sep 2013 #219

What cover up? Hydra Sep 2013 #223

the subject is 9/11 . n t geek tragedy Sep 2013 #230

Yes, and this happened: Hydra Sep 2013 #239

That certainly reveals gross incompetence. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #243

Did he have Obama's long form too? geek tragedy Sep 2013 #190

"The whole enchilada has been a lie since decision 2000." Enthusiast Sep 2013 #294

It would help to know in what way it's a lie according to him. stevenleser Sep 2013 #183

He says "not one word is true." nt DevonRex Sep 2013 #248

And with that statement, Seymour is just another person expressing an opinion. nt bluestate10 Sep 2013 #262

Interesting gopiscrap Sep 2013 #185

And Hersh's evidence is? Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Sep 2013 #186

Yes, I thought investigative journalists, you know, investigated treestar Sep 2013 #196

Supposedly 'it' is in his book, so in a way, I understand why he doesnt want to give it away before stevenleser Sep 2013 #213

Just trying to gin up interest in his book. That is all. nt kelliekat44 Sep 2013 #245

I wouldn't have thought an article like this would generate so much interest. randome Sep 2013 #204

Mostly due to knee jerk Hydra Sep 2013 #211

If the book says anything other than OBL is still alive: here's proof, the article is hype. stevenleser Sep 2013 #212

I saw your post on that Hydra Sep 2013 #214

Exactly. Goodness this is on the same level as those treestar Sep 2013 #253

Wow! i've never heard anyone claim that 9/11 never happened. Not ever.. 2banon Sep 2013 #284

go look up the no planes theory treestar Sep 2013 #290

"I wouldn't have thought an article like this would generate so much interest." EX500rider Sep 2013 #237

Well, the "Obama lied about killing bin Laden" geek tragedy Sep 2013 #247

Wow, you are lucky that your post didn't get hidden. Not that I don't agree with your point, bluestate10 Sep 2013 #263

Meh. If the tinfoil beanie fits . . . nt geek tragedy Sep 2013 #264

omg I thought I signed up to be in the company of Leftists! 2banon Sep 2013 #285

Most leftists are quite sane and reject such tinfoil geek tragedy Sep 2013 #286

tinfoil nuttiness? 2banon Sep 2013 #288

. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #289

That isn't Evidence of Tin Hat CT 2banon Sep 2013 #299

Got your flamey. All better now? Cerridwen Sep 2013 #267

Why did the seal team have guns when they went into OBL's compound, eh? zappaman Sep 2013 #273

For all we know OBL had a pollen allergy. name not needed Sep 2013 #279

After the way our troops were greeted in Baghdad? Wilms Sep 2013 #280

Hard to fucking believe Hobo Sep 2013 #287

To get me to believe Osama Bin Laden was that great boogyman at anyrate.......... nolabels Sep 2013 #301