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Igel

(37,282 posts)
86. You're making it simpler than possible.
Sat Mar 3, 2012, 01:16 PM
Mar 2012

It's okay to simplify as long as you and your listeners know the complexity masked by simple statements.
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Some parents can homeschool. 4th graders. Some can't. Odds are most parents could manage the 4th grade curriculum, stripped of trendy buzzwords and reduced to the actual core content. This I say as a parent who focuses on the role schools have to play in imparting knowledge. (Some teachers, esp. in elementary school, really believe that kids won't learn how to make friends or work together unless they're taught this for 12 years in public schools. If you only look at the "proper" kinds of socialization then, no, no parent can homeschool because you really need to be trained in the right way to raise kids, and the kids need to be in groups of 20 or more.)

Some parents can homeschool high school juniors and seniors in AP English and physics. I could do AP physical science, calculus, Russian, and Spanish, and level history, geography; my wife could handle AP English and AP life sciences and level history. I might have trouble with some lab equipment, but we'd manage. We could even manage basic music and art (or perhaps a bit more than basic.) Just don't ask us to teach our kid sports. You do dribble the football across home plate to score a touchdown, don't you? Or is that Australian-rules frisbee?

The point being that some parents are more than qualified. If not, they can often buy and procure knowledge elsewhere. I've known more than a few parents who homeschooled and knew they couldn't do it themselves past a certain grade level. I know one ex-math teacher who has a homeschooling group--a few times a week homeschooling parents bring their kids over for algebra or geometry lessons. Others buy pre-packaged curricula with online support. "Mom, I don't understand the difference between molarity and molality!" "That's okay, just login and ask the online tutor." No different from hiring a violin teacher or logging in for online support in troubleshooting software.


Some parents need to homeschool because when there are 180 kids being seen in the course of a day by 7 teachers some kids can't be managed well. Okay, you make them sit in class and be quiet. They cross their arms and do nothing. Or they write random answers because they don't care. You can't force a kid to learn--and they're the quieter ones. But between parents and teachers, often parents have more leverage. If they're home. Nothing makes these parents think they can homeschool. They just have no better option. They certainly won't do worse. Better to get a D in level history being taught by parents unqualified to teach level history than get an F in level history when taught by a person with a PhD in history. Behavior comes before knowledge. Teachers can manage some bad behavior; but ultimately it has to be the parents' responsibility.

How well the homeschooled kid does depends on the parents' education level, competence, diligence, self-discipline. It depends on the child's learning abilities, discipline, and compliance with parental structure. Often it's not the amount of knowledge the parent has that matters it's the ability to provide structure--structure that is lacking in a lot of classrooms, esp. with the increased class size. (Most teachers are at least competent in their content knowledge.)


A lot of homeschooled parents do it for cultural reasons. Some do it for religious reasons. Everything that I've said still applies. Fundie Xians aren't all idiots. Many have out of control kids. I've known UU homeschoolers and fundie Xian ones, Episcopal and Methodist. And Muslim. And Buddhist. There's a skew to the stats, but there's still no 100% accurate generalization for them.

About 1/2 of homeschoolers (as of the late '90s) weren't doing it for religious reasons. In fact, conservatives are late-comers to homeschooling. Used to be more folks far left of center, but that's when I was a kid, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth.

A few years ago there was a bit of an Afrocentric homeschooling trend.

---------

Usually when you find a failing student you find failing parents. Not always. And the word "failing" can have a bunch of different meanings.

Some kids just go bad because of peers or some horrendous event. By 9th grade you can predict with reasonable certainty a student's final GPA and likelihood of dropping out. In elementary school mid/high SES kids gain months of education over the summer. Leave 2nd grade on-level at 2.0 and return in August at 2.2. Low SES kids that leave 2nd grade on-level at 2.0 return in August at 1.8 or thereabouts. On average. No teachers in July. Sorry, this is pretty much all parent. Uneducated parents can't fill in details that are the basis for later formal education, and they spend many summers not filling in the details. Result? Their kids are behind. Such parents use to be rich in wisdom and manual skills.

Now we have not only uneducated parents but parents who can't do anything--they've not taught their kids to sew or cook, repair engines or build a treehouse. The kids socialize, listen to music, and have virtual experiences that they can ignore because, well, they're virtual. The parents' lives are roughly the same: work, tv, premade dinners (or ethnic cuisines that the kids don't learn to prepare), social networking.

A lot of the attention given kids is also screwed up. One girl in my class is allowed to sleep in. Class starts a bit after 9. She often gets out of bed after 9. Oh, well. "But she's so tired when she gets home, it's hard for her to get out of bed in time for school." Gee. Royalty. I was told about one kid a few years ago who would go to his room at 11 PM and stay up all night playing video games. Parent's solution? Drugs. In the morning they gave him a drug prescribed to keep him alert--hyper, even--all day; it lasted about 9 hours. When he got home it would wear off and he'd crash. Can't keep your kid disciplined and his life structured? Drug him. Woo-hoo. I missed that one in the parenting manuals.

Then there's the opposite. One parent turned to her child in conference and called her names I won't repeat, utterly humiliating her. The kid's expression said it all: "I hear you, bitch, and I'm looking down so you think I'm being obedient but really you can't see my usual smirk. I really don't give a f**k what you have to say, asshole." The kid is still out of control and has utter contempt for everybody but her friends. Good going, mom.

The kids in jr high and high school that are troublemakers or tuned out often have troubled home lives. Often they haven't been taught school culture and how to act in school. Or they don't see enough of a downside to acting out. Their parents don't have them do homework, so the kids figure it doesn't matter. In some cases the parents have actually told their kids that because they're black/Latino/etc. it doesn't matter, society's so stacked against them they'll never get into college or get a job. (It's a nice cop-out for their parents.)

Often the parents don't notice when the kid's in in-school suspension until he's in out-of-school suspension and the parent has to come in for a conference. Hell, I've seen kids in different classes all act out on the same day so they all get suspended and can hang out together. The parents long ago abdicated responsibility.

Low SES is just correlated with this kind of behavior. Some high SES families are just as troubled. Many low SES households have no trouble rearing decent kids. It's just that when high SES parents offer excuses we dismiss them; when low SES parents offer excuses, we gush with sympathy and say, "Yes, little dears, you can't help it. Let us assume responsibility for your life, we know so much better than you."

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

People who don't have a strong education Drale Mar 2012 #1
False. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #4
Being Able To Read Does Not Mean You Are Able to Teach we can do it Mar 2012 #13
Being educated to teach does not mean you are motivated to teach. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #26
So your father understands and can teach everything? Drahthaardogs Mar 2012 #53
Everything of any importance. Yes. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #61
The lesson learned from teachers and school abelenkpe Mar 2012 #70
Two things lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #74
Parroting my mother isn't independent thinking abelenkpe Mar 2012 #82
And that is absolutely the goal... WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #99
sO aRE yOU aN eNGINEER oR a lUMBERJACK? we can do it Mar 2012 #72
I AM a person. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #76
Your dad knows "everything of any importance"? TeamsterDem Mar 2012 #130
He knew the fallacy of the straw man. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #131
Unfortunately he didn't seem able to teach at least one of his kids about bombast TeamsterDem Mar 2012 #139
Which high school teacher taught you open heart surgery? lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #150
Which surgeon was home schooled on the art or surgery? TeamsterDem Mar 2012 #166
Wow thanks, you've hit the nail on the head. we can do it Mar 2012 #134
Are you a P.E.? Drahthaardogs Mar 2012 #153
The piece of paper is very important to you is it? lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #154
Fail. U4ikLefty Mar 2012 #157
You're entitled to your opinion. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #160
Actually, I know what the law usually requires Drahthaardogs Mar 2012 #176
There are lots of PE's who just wield a stamp. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #178
Most specs are REVIEWED and STAMPED by a P.E.! Drahthaardogs Mar 2012 #179
You're just wrong. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #181
No no, I got it. Drahthaardogs Mar 2012 #182
What specific degree would one have to hold ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #183
Engineering is a degree. Drahthaardogs Mar 2012 #187
there is no 'stamp' for a network design ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #200
That is because network engineering is not really engineering in a classical sense. Drahthaardogs Mar 2012 #210
If the piece of paper brings meaning to your life, I'm happy for you. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #225
that's funny about what we did and did not learn ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #230
But you need to know where to look up the information and what to look up. kemah Mar 2012 #218
I learned the quadratic equation in high school XemaSab Mar 2012 #222
Okay. Stop all of you. Broad brush is going to kill us here. roguevalley Mar 2012 #57
Direct your "broad brush" ire at the OP lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #67
Wow You Really Think Teachers Do It Just For the Money we can do it Mar 2012 #71
Of course. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #78
I said "just for the money" we can do it Mar 2012 #81
People choose a career for many reasons. They work for only one reason. Money. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #84
You are ignorant in the extreme. I've been a public school teacher for over 35 years. 11 Bravo Mar 2012 #132
You would find another gig if the paychecks dried up. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #133
You flatly stated that "People work for only one reason. Money." 11 Bravo Mar 2012 #156
Get back to me when you choose to work for zero. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #159
drop down. it was meant for someone else. I never said education. roguevalley Mar 2012 #90
If I didn't take an active role in my kids education, they would fail. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #111
I applaud parents that help. That is key but it doesn't make you 'qualified' to be a teacher roguevalley Mar 2012 #220
LOL. Devil_Fish Mar 2012 #196
Neither does being hired as a teacher. nt Incitatus Mar 2012 #219
Poorly put. Igel Mar 2012 #29
Sure. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #44
Were the homeschoolers pre-selected? tnvoter Mar 2012 #79
"Homeschooling industry"? Is it profitable? lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #83
I know three families that home-schooled... meaculpa2011 Mar 2012 #87
Did your dad homeschool you? 2ndAmForComputers Mar 2012 #94
Yes, my father was a self-educated man who quit school in the 8th grade to help his family farm jwirr Mar 2012 #109
"Education" means different things to different people. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #113
I Agree and They Don't Feel It's Important Either we can do it Mar 2012 #15
I call bs mzteris Mar 2012 #24
But apparently someone in your family found the value of an education. we can do it Mar 2012 #37
I didn't dissuade my homeschooled kid, either. mzteris Mar 2012 #41
Not Bashing, Just Questioning Because Not All Are Good or Competent we can do it Mar 2012 #50
Please enlighten us on your personal experience. mzteris Mar 2012 #149
That depends on why your parents did not go to college malaise Mar 2012 #75
My, what drival Drale Johnson20 Mar 2012 #147
as a person with only a high school education Maine-ah Mar 2012 #205
Sorry, no they sometimes value education more nadine_mn Mar 2012 #231
It's funny how this works lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #2
Parents need to support their kid's classroom at a minimum. EFerrari Mar 2012 #6
Parents who are this uninterested in the issue rarely attempt homeschooling. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #18
And yet, it can be both. nt EFerrari Mar 2012 #33
and you know what? mzteris Mar 2012 #28
Degrees are just "little pieces of paper"? EFerrari Mar 2012 #35
I have a little piece of paper, too. mzteris Mar 2012 #36
some people can earn a degree, but not be able to teach. Bluerthanblue Mar 2012 #97
But denigrating a college education out of hand EFerrari Mar 2012 #104
I can see Bluerthanblue Mar 2012 #114
Actually I wasn't referring to the "degree" mzteris Mar 2012 #213
oh, ok- I got it now. Bluerthanblue Mar 2012 #223
Straw man. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #118
Nope. Not only did the OP not say what you claim EFerrari Mar 2012 #121
I didn't. mzteris Mar 2012 #212
"It's about imparting knowledge to others." This is the Thread Winner. cherokeeprogressive Mar 2012 #138
Absent evidence to the contrary, yes. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #116
A degree is not a measure of intellect. boppers Mar 2012 #193
Helping Kids with Homework and Work Ethic Is One Thing we can do it Mar 2012 #7
As a high school English and communication teacher Goblinmonger Mar 2012 #9
The crucial period in a child's development and therefore education JDPriestly Mar 2012 #22
You're making it simpler than possible. Igel Mar 2012 #86
"Some parents can homeschool. Some can't." lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #88
They have done it for centuries before it became a business where you had to apply The Straight Story Mar 2012 #3
+100 lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #5
Well of Course You Do... we can do it Mar 2012 #10
Besides, people who send kids to public schools are freaks The Straight Story Mar 2012 #12
What Makes People Think Others Are Not Qualified to Teach Their Own Kids? joeglow3 Mar 2012 #8
I Am NOT a Teacher, Just Someone Who Values Education we can do it Mar 2012 #11
Maybe you can explain to us all what YOU think makes someone qualified? (nt) The Straight Story Mar 2012 #14
Apparently You Think Being 46 Years Old Is Good Enough we can do it Mar 2012 #16
Are you a parent? n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #32
Imagine that. You did not answer the question. joeglow3 Mar 2012 #106
This message was self-deleted by its author Tesha Mar 2012 #34
(hehe) we can do it Mar 2012 #42
Did you notice its been changed? we can do it Mar 2012 #58
This message was self-deleted by its author Tesha Mar 2012 #60
Yeah, it was kind of funny :) (nt) The Straight Story Mar 2012 #64
Do you teach your child science? JDPriestly Mar 2012 #43
And you feel public education doing well? ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #47
I am not totally opposed to homeschooling, but generally, I am very happy with JDPriestly Mar 2012 #143
we are hardly elite... ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #161
Your kids go to JFK in the Bronx? nt Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #191
No beginning in second and fourth grades respectively, they went to public JDPriestly Mar 2012 #194
Transfer then to JFK for a few years and get back Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #202
My children are out of college now. JDPriestly Mar 2012 #233
Thanks for expanding on this. Quite a few excellent points. we can do it Mar 2012 #55
No, the points made are from the perspective of someone ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #56
Your situation sounds fantastic. It does not apply to every other situtaion. we can do it Mar 2012 #59
You're right...it IS fantastic and undoubtedly unusual ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #62
That was not my intention with my post. we can do it Mar 2012 #69
I love my parents, and my mother was a teacher, but I would not JDPriestly Mar 2012 #145
Does that mean you are projecting your difficulties ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #162
Do you fight to prevent homeschools from experiencing these things? joeglow3 Mar 2012 #107
That's gonna leave a mark. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #115
Actually, I remember that post and I wrote in favor of allowing homeschooled JDPriestly Mar 2012 #140
Yes, we have chemistry lab supplied by the place we do home schooling through The Straight Story Mar 2012 #120
That last line is why I joined WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #168
Welcome to DU The Straight Story Mar 2012 #170
Thanks nt WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #172
For what its worth I'm not against home school if the parents are qualified, we can do it Mar 2012 #186
There we agree - kids do deserve a good education WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #188
Prussia intruduced compulsory education in 1763; they started teaching to the test in 1788 FarCenter Mar 2012 #163
Teaching is a profession treestar Mar 2012 #177
Guess how many of my college professors had education degrees... joeglow3 Mar 2012 #192
It is a priority WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #216
Professionals keep up with their profession treestar Mar 2012 #224
That's sort of making my point - but through another door WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #227
I seriously doubt that all teacher training is now obsolete treestar Mar 2012 #228
I'll try to address - but I have to bring you back to what we were talking about WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #229
One Word: Anosognosia dynasaw Mar 2012 #17
Best Answer. we can do it Mar 2012 #25
If he thinks it will get him more attention... Yes. SalviaBlue Mar 2012 #19
Because quite frankly mzteris Mar 2012 #20
I know 2 home school families very well ... and they are like night and day. JoePhilly Mar 2012 #21
Thanks For the Great Examples. we can do it Mar 2012 #31
no they're not "great examples" mzteris Mar 2012 #39
Speak for yourself please. we can do it Mar 2012 #63
Your posting in this threads makes it clear you don't have a clue. joeglow3 Mar 2012 #108
Did I say either example was "typical"?? JoePhilly Mar 2012 #73
I can assure you my hs'ing mzteris Mar 2012 #151
That's fine ... but I did not claim your home schooling was ineffective ... JoePhilly Mar 2012 #171
here's the problem - mzteris Mar 2012 #208
One thing I should have mentioned initially - who protects the kids we can do it Mar 2012 #184
I agree, I would not consider it treestar Mar 2012 #23
What if your kid is getting bullied at school? Fumesucker Mar 2012 #52
That would be a good reason to do it, I suppose treestar Mar 2012 #54
And this would be the responsibility of the parents - why? WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #80
Because they're the parents jeff47 Mar 2012 #102
I meant why is it the responsibility of the parent.... WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #103
Because that might be in their kid's best interest jeff47 Mar 2012 #117
I think we are agreeing WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #123
I thought the issue was, are the parents sure they are qualified to teach treestar Mar 2012 #175
Simple Rod Mollise Mar 2012 #27
The student teacher ratio is a lot lower FarCenter Mar 2012 #30
Oh great, more anti-homeschooling BS. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #38
Don't you love how mzteris Mar 2012 #40
our homeschooling experience ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #45
Awesome! Your daughter is SOOOOO lucky! Odin2005 Mar 2012 #49
There are actually three of them ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #51
You are a great parent! I wish I had been homeschooled. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #92
i am just the provider in this equation ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #95
Do you, or will you, homeschool them all the way through high school? Prometheus Bound Mar 2012 #167
That is a decision we will make when we get there ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #174
It's the HSing = Religious Nut-Job assumption. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #48
My nieces and nephew live in my mothers basement abelenkpe Mar 2012 #77
Those nuts are the exception, not the rule. Odin2005 Mar 2012 #93
I figured they were a bad example abelenkpe Mar 2012 #98
So we demonize groups for stereotypes now? nt WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #101
Some do abelenkpe Mar 2012 #105
Couldn't agree more WinniSkipper Mar 2012 #112
Can I blast all public schools because of suicides of gay students joeglow3 Mar 2012 #110
extremist examples mzteris Mar 2012 #142
I hear you. Puzzledtraveller Mar 2012 #85
no one likes to talk about it, but mzteris Mar 2012 #146
I have a homeschooling cousin that claims Gawd tells her they are qualified tridim Mar 2012 #46
I have met a lot of families who are raising their kids cbayer Mar 2012 #65
do you have kids? Voice for Peace Mar 2012 #66
Robert A. Heinlein on education: Johnny Rico Mar 2012 #68
But Kip was a genius TexasBill Mar 2012 #137
before reading all the other comments, let me answer this FirstLight Mar 2012 #89
the person who posted the OP doesn't deserve such a thoughtful response Enrique Mar 2012 #96
thanks... FirstLight Mar 2012 #100
Troll??hahahah Bigot - Um-No we can do it Mar 2012 #125
This message was self-deleted by its author Enrique Mar 2012 #91
Is this why homeschooled kids are usually way behind hughee99 Mar 2012 #119
link please lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #124
Will this do? hughee99 Mar 2012 #127
That helps a great deal. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #135
Is this why hs'd kids are sought by Universities mzteris Mar 2012 #215
My home school college diploma B Calm Mar 2012 #122
What makes you think they are not capable? etherealtruth Mar 2012 #126
I didn't say or imply all are not capable. we can do it Mar 2012 #129
My preference is that my children receive a public education etherealtruth Mar 2012 #136
All good reasons, yet many whose kids have safety issues don't have the resources to home school. we can do it Mar 2012 #141
Now that is a fight that I am willing to participate in! etherealtruth Mar 2012 #144
Yes you did. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #152
I did not say that, try reading for comprehension we can do it Mar 2012 #180
My main objection to it frazzled Mar 2012 #128
arrogance and racism pitohui Mar 2012 #148
what if they want to homeschool because their Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #204
You know, I'm surprised mzteris Mar 2012 #155
It seems you've never met or heard of neglectful or abusive parents? we can do it Mar 2012 #185
As a former foster mom, mzteris Mar 2012 #209
Unfortunately, in my experience there is little correlation between "people with teaching degrees" Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #158
And what makes people think they will have the time working two jobs or glinda Mar 2012 #164
you think homeschoolers get tax breaks??? HAHAHAHAHA! n/t ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2012 #173
they will want them glinda Mar 2012 #195
Homeschooling is probably good for kids who would be the youngest in their class FarCenter Mar 2012 #165
Instinct! samfarkus Mar 2012 #169
Is is not true that "All children are born geniusses." FarCenter Mar 2012 #189
As someone who substitutes in schools and volunteers in both my daughters's classes, Jennicut Mar 2012 #190
OK, I'll bite. What makes people think institutional learning is the best way... joshcryer Mar 2012 #197
After reading this thread, I am so glad I wasn't homeschooled. Withywindle Mar 2012 #198
hs kids are not kept in a closet mzteris Mar 2012 #211
Sometimes homeschooling is the better alternative rebecca_herman Mar 2012 #199
Because we all do it quaker bill Mar 2012 #201
There is more than one good answer, and then there's my sig line saras Mar 2012 #203
I have a friend who is doing it and it's working - TBF Mar 2012 #206
Most of us would do okay with 1 or 2 kids. rucky Mar 2012 #207
Ten thousand years of success? Iggo Mar 2012 #214
Great answer. (nt) NYC_SKP Jun 2013 #236
Maybe looking at the crop some high schools have been producing lately. nt Incitatus Mar 2012 #217
What makes people think they are qualified to HAVE kids? cleanhippie Mar 2012 #221
Knowledge doesn't equal ability to teach. Mendocino Mar 2012 #226
some people are, some people aren't it's no black and white issue. dionysus Mar 2012 #232
Believe it or not, there are homeschool programs out there that offer step-by-step instructions. GoddessOfGuinness Mar 2012 #234
The reason why WovenGems Jun 2013 #235
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»What Makes People Think T...»Reply #86