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LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)

249. I believe this is analogous to someone who believes firmly in the first amendment, but actively crit

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 02:09 PM

Oct 2013

I think there are many who believe that this is an instance of two competing concepts, both of which are firmly embraced by Democrats: a woman's right to choose, and the responsible stewardship of the planet.

Many people (myself included) believe that, relative to the concept of finite planetary resources available, her choice is irresponsible, and indicative of many other irresponsible choices people make every day (pollution, contamination, etc.). However, that belief is not predicated in any way on her right to choose.

Hence, I don't think the collective criticism about her is that she made a choice, but that she made an objectively irresponsible choice.

I believe this is analogous to someone who believes firmly in the first amendment, but actively criticizes Fox News for what, how and why they choose to air in the manner that they do. And I doubt anyone who criticizes Fox news, calls them out on their methods of both hypocrisy and propaganda are (except for a very small number) calling for Fox news to outlawed or taken off the air (other than through the common method of the market).

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I'm Sick of the Michelle Duggar Posts Trashing a Woman for the Children she Produces! [View all] KoKo Oct 2013 OP

IMHO, I don't care about the number of kids, its the commercialization and tv show producing benld74 Oct 2013 #1

I like that you are suggesting we shouldn't judge her family for its size, ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #2

I think people are pissed she exploit$ the kid$ leftstreet Oct 2013 #3

My wife and I got trashed for not wanting to have any children fitman Oct 2013 #4

But they are hurting people, future generations, because the planet cannot sustain this cui bono Oct 2013 #37

bingo - we have some responsibility to the future rurallib Oct 2013 #155

That's how I look at it. LuvNewcastle Oct 2013 #173

I don't buy the "future generations" critique, though. Orrex Oct 2013 #191

Why not? You know we can't all breed like that. LuvNewcastle Oct 2013 #232

It is, to use a phrase from Carl Sagan, a brick-in-the-toilet mode of thinking. Orrex Oct 2013 #233

They promote it as a way of life though...and on television. nt Sivafae Oct 2013 #250

I just don't get your reasoning here. LuvNewcastle Oct 2013 #291

What is the acceptable number of offspring? And what about people who have more? Orrex Oct 2013 #293

Bingo! avebury Oct 2013 #223

The planet can't sustain 20 people? What the fuck? that is closeupready Oct 2013 #254

Yeah, I don't think people like extremes. Left2Tackle Oct 2013 #181

She's a crazy cult member XemaSab Oct 2013 #5

Yep. And she, with her crazy husband, are creating more like just like them. progressoid Oct 2013 #277

What bugs me about her family structure is that none of those children dflprincess Oct 2013 #6

Until I see kids from that family get on CNN or MSNBC and Say they were ABUSED KoKo Oct 2013 #13

Having more children than you can care for is abuse dflprincess Oct 2013 #20

If a couple adopted 19 kids over 25 years, would you say they are abusive? uppityperson Oct 2013 #23

I would seriously question any adoption agency dflprincess Oct 2013 #31

Are they all living in one home? Even the married one? Even the ones in their 20's? uppityperson Oct 2013 #46

Their eldest is now working in DC for the Family Research Council, an anti gay Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #166

What a fine family. ewwwwww, May he and his siblings learn more about the real world uppityperson Oct 2013 #248

THIS is what I object to... Rainngirl Oct 2013 #258

Not Abusive RobinA Oct 2013 #158

bingo. thanxs eom catrose Oct 2013 #230

All the girls seem to be happy fitman Oct 2013 #174

Have you ever seen a family of even four where someone isn't unhappy at least part of the time? hamsterjill Oct 2013 #256

Agree 100% fitman Oct 2013 #257

Interesting article by a woman who grew up in a similar family dflprincess Oct 2013 #270

I think the only 'abuse' is the screwed up belief system they force on their kids. SammyWinstonJack Oct 2013 #211

that is bound to happen treestar Oct 2013 #216

LOL, really, this is what you choose to be outraged about? n-t Logical Oct 2013 #7

The problem people have is that they're religious. Dreamer Tatum Oct 2013 #8

Well that's disgusting for Dems to deny folks Relgious Opinion... KoKo Oct 2013 #17

No one is denying them anything, but no one has to refrain from criticism of Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #167

So why is it okay to judge people politically but not religiously? Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #199

We absolutely get to judge. Daemonaquila Oct 2013 #285

Succinct, to the point, and Seeking Serenity Oct 2013 #33

B-I-N-G-O. Common Sense Party Oct 2013 #118

Who is saying they don't have the right to live like that? Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #206

I think we DO understand the difference, actually. I realize that you don't take action Common Sense Party Oct 2013 #217

That second comment certainly isn't pro-choice. Mariana Oct 2013 #246

Very wrong. jeff47 Oct 2013 #242

Oh horseshit nt Dreamer Tatum Oct 2013 #245

My, what a fact-full response. jeff47 Oct 2013 #247

He's right. bunnies Oct 2013 #261

Holy fuck! I googled it. bunnies Oct 2013 #260

I don't trash her, but I think any woman is crazy RebelOne Oct 2013 #9

I don't like their whole spiel. Responsible people who care about the earth and it's... BlueJazz Oct 2013 #10

Thank you. Overpopulation is a real problem. OnionPatch Oct 2013 #224

On premise I agree with you but with the population explosion and resultant Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #11

Her childen could die in a Flood, Tornado...Disaster. Why are our KoKo Oct 2013 #18

The Duggers can choose whatever they want, I'm have no right to deny them that, but Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #26

U.S. population growth this decade Union Scribe Oct 2013 #82

As the last paragraph in my first post on this thread points out Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #99

And yet people choose not to Union Scribe Oct 2013 #104

The stats that I just posted should show you that it is an issue. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #113

Wow. No, that post makes no sense what so ever. cui bono Oct 2013 #41

"Preferably only 2 at the most" Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #49

I didn't say anything about a woman's right to choose. cui bono Oct 2013 #54

Interesting. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #58

Nope. That's not right at all. You brought up the word monster. cui bono Oct 2013 #69

I felt monster was appropriate... Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #81

We are not nearing a shortage of people. cui bono Oct 2013 #123

But that rate of growth is slowing. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #132

Well I'm glad we can agree that it would be good to not continue the population growth. cui bono Oct 2013 #141

Problem is, we have people in our government... awoke_in_2003 Oct 2013 #271

Did you read Michelle's lectures on the web after her own miscarriage polly7 Oct 2013 #79

To be fair, she seems to be being demonized for her choices as well. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #96

People have a right to criticize anything they think is wrong. polly7 Oct 2013 #202

Really? I never heard about that. cui bono Oct 2013 #143

you really love that show.. don't you? nt dionysus Oct 2013 #48

My only beef with women (or couples) who avebury Oct 2013 #12

I understand what you say...but the Duggars don't seem to NOT be able KoKo Oct 2013 #21

Are you sure you want to start down that path? Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #29

I am not interested in defunding all aid to families avebury Oct 2013 #40

So you'd cut off aid to a single mother with say, five children? Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #52

Once a woman (or couple) are forced to sign up for avebury Oct 2013 #70

So reproductive rights should only belong to the wealthy? Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #91

So do you believe that people should be able to avebury Oct 2013 #146

That was Newt Gingrich's position, btw (nt) Recursion Oct 2013 #125

So in other words, if a kid is born to irresponsible parents, TOUGH LUCK! nt alp227 Oct 2013 #274

No. If a parent is (or parents are) unable to properly avebury Oct 2013 #275

I get your idea, but would you apply that to mothers on pub asst when a kid is born? alp227 Oct 2013 #276

As far as I am concerned, the welfare of the avebury Oct 2013 #279

Wow, the welfare mother bit. Union Scribe Oct 2013 #105

No kidding. It's literally what Newt was saying 20 years ago Recursion Oct 2013 #126

If a person is on public assistance avebury Oct 2013 #228

I don't care about the monetary part treestar Oct 2013 #218

My beef, if you will, is the quiverful movement that the program promotes nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #14

Look...Maybe some of us made choices for 1 child for Us or No Kids. KoKo Oct 2013 #34

There's nothing wrong with pointing out what these people really stand for kcr Oct 2013 #43

You should read into the Quiverful movement nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #47

Exactly, Nadin. kcr Oct 2013 #53

All it takes is one, or two episodes nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #59

Yes. Exactly. kcr Oct 2013 #62

Very, very few evangelicals pay attention to the Quiverful movement. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #203

Criticizing her choices is not the same Mariana Oct 2013 #15

But, why is this Woman and her Family singled Out? If one doesn't KoKo Oct 2013 #42

There's no abuse? XemaSab Oct 2013 #45

You are aware of their reality TV show, correct? Beaverhausen Oct 2013 #50

I don't watch MSM..so not aware of a Duggar Reality Show...never heard KoKo Oct 2013 #64

Here, from The Learning Channel nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #71

Oldest now works for Family Research Council Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #170

99.99998% of people fitman Oct 2013 #179

I would rather see a reality show about a family of adopted kids Beaverhausen Oct 2013 #75

you had no idea? she treats her daughters like servants, and the boys like princes.... bettyellen Oct 2013 #131

Yes, the daughters take care of the younger children and babies. They change the diapers, etc. anneboleyn Oct 2013 #267

I only watched one show and bits and pieces of others while switching through the channels, polly7 Oct 2013 #268

So it is ok to attack Cyrus for her art and sexuality as an adult woman but not Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #169

The Discovery Network helped build their 7,000 sq. ft. house. City Lights Oct 2013 #189

You honestly did not know they have a reality tv series? "19 kids and counting" etc.?! anneboleyn Oct 2013 #266

Because this woman and her family Mariana Oct 2013 #63

Gee do you think putting yourself on a TV series about you might single you out? Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #165

They are singled out because they have a teevee show. City Lights Oct 2013 #186

It's us usual treestar Oct 2013 #219

Because she chooses to publicize her lifestyle on national TV tabbycat31 Oct 2013 #236

Criticizing the decision is not necessarily criticizing the right to make said decision. Gravitycollapse Oct 2013 #16

+1 Silent3 Oct 2013 #51

It's always disappointing, especially here on DU... Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #19

This presumes that a Quiverfull wife has a choice. longship Oct 2013 #102

All of her choices? Every single thing she chooses to do? TreasonousBastard Oct 2013 #135

No, of course not. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #136

Ah, just her reproductive choices... TreasonousBastard Oct 2013 #144

Sure why not, I mean, there's plenty of resources to go around, right? Lex Oct 2013 #22

I don't have to endorse others' choices jberryhill Oct 2013 #24

Really. What is so hard about that? kcr Oct 2013 #30

+1 JNelson6563 Oct 2013 #32

Actually, in this case you kinda do. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #39

Bullshit jberryhill Oct 2013 #60

You're certainly free to believe whatever you want jberryhill. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #67

Do you like White Power racist literature? jberryhill Oct 2013 #77

It's your choice! joshcryer Oct 2013 #92

We do an ultrasound each time jberryhill Oct 2013 #94

One of these things is not like the others... Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #95

"Apparently you disagree." jberryhill Oct 2013 #101

Wow. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #110

"I cut myself because I like getting stitches" jberryhill Oct 2013 #115

Would you recommend the same... Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #117

Or, say, Michael Jackson? jberryhill Oct 2013 #121

Oh geez. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #127

Anyone who would get pregnant for the sole purpose of getting an abortion... bunnies Oct 2013 #264

Absolutely Beringia Oct 2013 #286

Actually, I do stay silent when someone simply condemns a woman for abortion. sir pball Oct 2013 #237

Their choice. They don't deserve any special coverage though. nt uppityperson Oct 2013 #25

Yeah,That 20th kid will ensure a tv series renewal so free market and all that TeamPooka Oct 2013 #27

Thanks, I agree. elleng Oct 2013 #28

The fact of the matter is this is not simply a case of a woman's choice. cui bono Oct 2013 #35

Well said. nt. polly7 Oct 2013 #38

May I add an Amen to that! theHandpuppet Oct 2013 #65

well put. Matariki Oct 2013 #72

+1000 nt Duppers Oct 2013 #172

Then you need to learn more about Quiverfull. longship Oct 2013 #36

I don't care how many kids they have, it's none of my business. I just would like the same Raine Oct 2013 #44

I would like to think it is sarcasm because they are so vocally anti-choice... ScreamingMeemie Oct 2013 #55

The disdain and vitriol by some is revealing Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #292

boring NoOneMan Oct 2013 #56

My problem is that the children are raising their siblings. bravenak Oct 2013 #57

Because this: Matariki Oct 2013 #61

Do you hear yourself in what you say? Are YOU the DECIDER? KoKo Oct 2013 #76

No, that person is not making decisions for anyone else jberryhill Oct 2013 #83

Ah, if only I WAS the DECIDER! Mr. & Mrs. Duggar would have been forcibly sterilized ages ago Matariki Oct 2013 #85

You are trying to compare airplanes to oranges Matariki Oct 2013 #66

Exactly. cui bono Oct 2013 #73

criticizing a choice and denying a choice are two very separate things La Lioness Priyanka Oct 2013 #68

Bingo. This is the critical distinction here. Butterbean Oct 2013 #97

You would think more people on this board would understand this very basic concept. Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #208

I agree. I trash all the threads that trash a woman's right to chose the size of her family. liberal_at_heart Oct 2013 #74

There you said it ...Simple Statement and what CHOICE of Body is About! KoKo Oct 2013 #80

It's not her choice. It's Quiverfull, a male dominated cult. longship Oct 2013 #108

Pardon me for saying so, but... pipi_k Oct 2013 #244

Or the sex of her offspring jberryhill Oct 2013 #84

You keep posting this like it's some kind of winning argument. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #107

You have this odd habit jberryhill Oct 2013 #109

I think you might be on to something kcr Oct 2013 #120

Maybe we're arguing about different things? Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #122

Being "pro choice" means... jberryhill Oct 2013 #124

Okay, I see it now. Llewlladdwr Oct 2013 #134

Just because someone has the right to be a dumbass doesn't mean I don't get to call them a dumbass. msanthrope Oct 2013 #269

Quiverfull movement Shivering Jemmy Oct 2013 #78

It's an irresponsible and selfish choice. Spider Jerusalem Oct 2013 #86

Quiverfull of crap! agentS Oct 2013 #87

Well, they're going to get away with it kcr Oct 2013 #90

True, my brother says you can't unscrew a light bulb. agentS Oct 2013 #93

Boy between the tattoo threads and the Duggar threads I am just sick to death of prejudice liberal_at_heart Oct 2013 #88

What? No one should express their opinions here? Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #214

No one should have more than 3 kids -- the world is way overpopulated as it is FarCenter Oct 2013 #89

Do you happen to have 3 kids yourself? FedUpWithIt All Oct 2013 #138

For the US, 3 is OK; for some parts of the world, 1 is the right number. FarCenter Oct 2013 #157

It's possible you miss the point of "choosing" to have so many kids you need to "meaningfully" ... Hekate Oct 2013 #98

Who needs butter? I've got plenty! Initech Oct 2013 #100

+1 Nevernose Oct 2013 #114

Sure! I've also got the beer. Initech Oct 2013 #238

Post removed Post removed Oct 2013 #103

I'm sick of DU'ers who think voicing an opinion is telling someone how many children they may have. KittyWampus Oct 2013 #106

Maybe because they're doing it for publicity? xfundy Oct 2013 #111

No one here is denying her a choice in the matter. THAT would be her kestrel91316 Oct 2013 #112

Well, as someone who is vocally ZPG. Chan790 Oct 2013 #116

Maybe her husband's penis could fall off instead. cyberswede Oct 2013 #139

Penises falling off is a medical anomaly outside of frostbite or gangrenous injury. Chan790 Oct 2013 #164

Here's what bugs me: wickerwoman Oct 2013 #119

5 and 6 Sivafae Oct 2013 #259

it is her choice Niceguy1 Oct 2013 #128

but what if all those kids go on to twerk to Miley Cyrus, and then get tattoos? Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #129

butbutbutbut what bugs me about her life and her decision to do these things is.... Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #130

Mostly I think this isn't my business unless the children aren't well cared for. DevonRex Oct 2013 #133

Let a newbie take a swipe IkeRepublican Oct 2013 #137

Hell. Have a hundred children if you can afford them. Lint Head Oct 2013 #140

Her vagina is like a clown car" Yuk Yuk Yuk. FedUpWithIt All Oct 2013 #142

The crude jokes are inappropriate Nevernose Oct 2013 #148

And the discussions go far beyond what she has chosen to publically share. n/t FedUpWithIt All Oct 2013 #235

If she loved this planet she'd stop having little consumers. OregonBlue Oct 2013 #145

Also, if she loved pipi_k Oct 2013 #184

Goog luck in taking this issue on on DU Le Taz Hot Oct 2013 #147

You are so very, very wrong. cali Oct 2013 #149

You need to calm down. Seriously. Sheldon Cooper Oct 2013 #150

Your logic is flawed on this, KoKo Tanuki Oct 2013 #151

As someone that spent time in the NICU MelissainKC Oct 2013 #152

I don't care one way or the other davidpdx Oct 2013 #153

I despise the Duggars get the red out Oct 2013 #154

If they were cats, we'd call her a hoarder. WCLinolVir Oct 2013 #156

I'm not in favor of physically stopping her from having children Arkana Oct 2013 #159

If she continues to try to pump out avebury Oct 2013 #278

Well, take away pipi_k Oct 2013 #288

A planet with limited and diminishing resources... 99Forever Oct 2013 #160

They campaigned for Rick Santorum HockeyMom Oct 2013 #161

^This^ PasadenaTrudy Oct 2013 #182

To me that is more disturbing than the fact they have 19 kids. Initech Oct 2013 #240

When I see a reality show celebrating a woman's 20 abortions, I'll agree with you Orrex Oct 2013 #162

Definitely the best comment! get the red out Oct 2013 #185

Well said! City Lights Oct 2013 #194

Breeders are people too Capt. Obvious Oct 2013 #163

At what point does a drinker appear to have a problem? Orsino Oct 2013 #168

MIT: "Growing population will increase global climate challenges" Duppers Oct 2013 #171

Who is trying to deny her right to reproduce? City Lights Oct 2013 #175

No one is. The OP doesn't want us to criticize her Mariana Oct 2013 #178

But ... But ... What if Jimbob reads this and then he can't ... you know ... Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #198

So, in reference to this... pipi_k Oct 2013 #176

I noticed, when doing my family tree Mariana Oct 2013 #180

Exactly! pipi_k Oct 2013 #187

read up on the Quiverfull movement, then decide if you think she has a "choice". nt Javaman Oct 2013 #177

It's not the norm. So someone is going to judge it wrong. Left2Tackle Oct 2013 #183

I think of the Duggar family exactly never. MineralMan Oct 2013 #188

Oh, bullshit. enki23 Oct 2013 #190

You're making a massive false equivalence. JoeyT Oct 2013 #192

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Raster Oct 2013 #197

Thread winner! City Lights Oct 2013 #200

This. theKed Oct 2013 #201

Great post, JoeyT. Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #209

+1000! theHandpuppet Oct 2013 #221

Good post. And the assumption that the many they produce treestar Oct 2013 #222

Best post pipi_k Oct 2013 #239

These type families have no impact on public thought or policy fitman Oct 2013 #251

+1000 WCLinolVir Oct 2013 #287

Boom. Thank you for this response Hong Kong Cavalier Oct 2013 #294

FFS...show me a post where someone actually said they wanted to deny her that right... joeybee12 Oct 2013 #193

They MADE the choice - the DUGGARS Glitterati Oct 2013 #195

Right! DUers had better stop storming the Duggar bedroom to demand Jimbob wear a condom! Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #196

Seven billion miracles is enough. CrispyQ Oct 2013 #204

Claiming that criticism of the Duggars means you are not pro-choice is the No True Scotsman fallacy. Shrike47 Oct 2013 #205

They can DO anything they want to do. Puglover Oct 2013 #207

Uh, I don't even know who she is but anyone *birthing* more than 20 kids (as indicated in your post) valerief Oct 2013 #210

I'm sick of the way this family uses their fame to support anti-choice hate groups BuddhaGirl Oct 2013 #212

What makes you think she's "choosing" this? SomethingFishy Oct 2013 #213

No one is saying it should be illegal treestar Oct 2013 #215

Interesting paradigm CountAllVotes Oct 2013 #220

Thanks...it's on Netflix too! KoKo Oct 2013 #252

She can have as many babies as she wants to Bettie Oct 2013 #225

interesting that you used the word "produces" rather than gives birth to... Scout Oct 2013 #226

If you can afford to take care of kids, fine, have them. But to exploit your kids to gain money and appleannie1 Oct 2013 #227

For some, it's not about choice, it's about the "right" choice. hughee99 Oct 2013 #229

If it were just an issue of choice I would agree but she uses this situation as a political ploy. jwirr Oct 2013 #231

I am sick of people having so little regard for the planet/environment/resources that they choose to livetohike Oct 2013 #234

Christian Fundamentalists Cult Quiverfull otohara Oct 2013 #241

"Pro choice" is not "can never criticize". jeff47 Oct 2013 #243

I believe this is analogous to someone who believes firmly in the first amendment, but actively crit LanternWaste Oct 2013 #249

Filling up the planet with children to make a buck or two is pretty fucked up Vinnie From Indy Oct 2013 #253

"Right to choose", on this site, = "MY right to choose for me and you". closeupready Oct 2013 #255

I'd probably never have known how bizarre and twisted they really are without your post. bunnies Oct 2013 #262

Not when they selfishly use more resources Taverner Oct 2013 #263

People share their opinions, often quite vehemently, IronLionZion Oct 2013 #265

Thanks...It's been interesting reading the replies... KoKo Oct 2013 #282

I'll tell ya what's wrong with it. It's a HORRIBLE choice for her and for society. alp227 Oct 2013 #272

The Duggars can go to HELL!! Their selfishness is beyond belief. Your reasoning that madinmaryland Oct 2013 #273

+1 million darkangel218 Oct 2013 #280

Infant mortality and... pipi_k Oct 2013 #290

I don't care what she does until it kills her... tnlefty Oct 2013 #281

I'm sick of people mischaracterizing women's rights. Daemonaquila Oct 2013 #283

And that's it pipi_k Oct 2013 #289

Fuck her and her clown car mwrguy Oct 2013 #284

If a woman had had that many abortions, and someone here complained about it The Straight Story Oct 2013 #295