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napoleon_in_rags

(3,992 posts)

141. I wonder about alternative histories...

Mon Mar 5, 2012, 03:42 AM

Mar 2012

For instance, if the US took a stance more neutral... or more importantly, more hateful of Jews: Would this letter have been written?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-ein39/
Or more specifically, would the "relativity jew" (as the Nazis derisively called Einstein) decided to go the Soviet union instead and write the letter to Stalin? If so, would Stalin have been able to keep the war effort going long enough for his own "Manhattan project", and what would have been the effect on the world when Stalin emerged victorious as the world's only nuclear power? My bet is he wouldn't have gone the gentle US way, setting up the UN to create world peace. And I'd probably be watching my language, as well as calling you "comrade" in this very post.

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Enough about the bad, what was GOOD abot the Soviet Union? [View all] Taverner Mar 2012 OP

They made a great enemy slackmaster Mar 2012 #1

Aye. Boogeyman Supreme. Taverner Mar 2012 #8

There was nothing good. mick063 Mar 2012 #2

BS. I've spoken to many who, despite being Anti-Communist, admitted the system treated them well Taverner Mar 2012 #7

As long as you could join the party sharp_stick Mar 2012 #26

Did you ask anyone from the Gulags? Zalatix Mar 2012 #114

i know. this thread is cracking me up... dionysus Mar 2012 #178

Is that what they told you in school? Fool Count Mar 2012 #28

One thing that doesn't make sense Shankapotomus Mar 2012 #3

It was efficient at exploiting natural resources bhikkhu Mar 2012 #35

"do you level off, or do you nosedive?"... You mean like in 2008 here in the US? LooseWilly Mar 2012 #123

if you're honestly comparing that to the way the USSR fell, well... can't help ya... dionysus Mar 2012 #176

True but even better than that was malaise Mar 2012 #4

+100 Taverner Mar 2012 #9

Somehow I don't think that made having such a brutal, oppresive system valid. YMMV. n/t PavePusher Mar 2012 #159

Brutal and oppressive compared to what? malaise Mar 2012 #161

The Soviets never had laws against drugs? PavePusher Mar 2012 #163

might want to crack a history book and look up gulags.... dionysus Mar 2012 #177

It was only good in comparison to the previous regime. A theocratic dictatorship, dimbear Mar 2012 #5

The women and the vodka imo. Not much else FarLeftFist Mar 2012 #6

Beat me to it. nt Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #12

Those Ukraine girls really knocked me out Art_from_Ark Mar 2012 #167

Other worldly graphic design and style. onehandle Mar 2012 #10

I highly rec this coffee table book Taverner Mar 2012 #16

A smiley broke your link obxhead Mar 2012 #23

Here ya go! Taverner Mar 2012 #83

much of their sports medicine/ sports science (not sure of the term) was ahead of its time eShirl Mar 2012 #11

Uh, taking out Hitler? napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #13

YES! There is that!!! Taverner Mar 2012 #14

Not very economical on the Infantry or the Civilians BOHICA12 Mar 2012 #44

You're right, they did ruin Hitler. bigmonkey Mar 2012 #101

I wonder about alternative histories... napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #141

1200 miles of fire and flying steel. ronnie624 Mar 2012 #115

A quote that made the rounds Dyedinthewoolliberal Mar 2012 #15

What was good about Hitler's Germany? Frances Mar 2012 #17

Nazi Germany =/= Soviet Union Taverner Mar 2012 #62

Nazi Germany < Soviet Union Zalatix Mar 2012 #104

Tell that to the Native Americans & the slaves. baldguy Mar 2012 #109

Umm, the USSR was every bit as evil as we said. Ask the Soviet Jews sometime. Zalatix Mar 2012 #112

The USSR was around much longer than Nazi Germany, too. baldguy Mar 2012 #117

Let me repeat. Saying that the USA was worst of all does NOT invalidate the fact that Zalatix Mar 2012 #118

You <3 Hitler for killing Soviets? Am I getting it? LooseWilly Mar 2012 #133

Its amazing... This person wishes Hitler took Stalingrad and won the eastern front. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #142

The best part is that, since defending Stalin is bannable, cheerleading Hitler can't be challenged! LooseWilly Mar 2012 #146

Absolutely disgusting. I want there to be no illusions about where my sentiments lie: napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #150

The U.S. likely killed more Native Americans than either of those regimes killed Jews. white_wolf Mar 2012 #119

Now you are changing the subject. The subject was the USSR vs Nazi Germany. Zalatix Mar 2012 #121

I was actually agreeing with the above poster who pointed out the U.S. issue. white_wolf Mar 2012 #124

I already condemned the US in my response to him. Next? Zalatix Mar 2012 #126

The subject was NOT the USSR vs Nazi Germany... that's just what you seem to want the subject to be LooseWilly Mar 2012 #148

What an idiotic argument, going on about PERCENTAGES. Zalatix Mar 2012 #154

If percentages aren't relevant... then please communicate that fact to all of corporate America... LooseWilly Mar 2012 #182

Wait, now you're comparing economics to mass slaughter? Zalatix Mar 2012 #184

Technological and scientific advancement? dmallind Mar 2012 #66

They forced America's hand at civil rights reforms and support for the arts and sciences Tom Ripley Mar 2012 #18

Oh, I've got a long list of goodies... cynatnite Mar 2012 #19

You want some indirect benefits of the USSR? white_wolf Mar 2012 #20

Everyone had a place to live izquierdista Mar 2012 #21

All the things you laud about the Soviet Union Cirque du So-What Mar 2012 #22

You stated that very well etherealtruth Mar 2012 #25

Those reforms probably wouldn't have been implemented without the USSR. white_wolf Mar 2012 #30

I highly doubt that. The USSR delayed the implementation of those reforms... joshcryer Mar 2012 #51

The entire NEW LEFT in America and Britain was formed in opposition to the USSR. Zalatix Mar 2012 #125

So,what is your point? white_wolf Mar 2012 #129

You said Zalatix Mar 2012 #155

Very good point Taverner Mar 2012 #158

. dionysus Mar 2012 #173

Oh, please do you really think the capitalists granted those reforms out of kindness? white_wolf Mar 2012 #174

i'll tell you one thing; cardboard cutout comrades crack me up. dionysus Mar 2012 #180

Apologists for capitalism crack me up. white_wolf Mar 2012 #181

how bout this; i'll take a nice socialist country like sweden, and you have have your failed death dionysus Mar 2012 #185

Note: in the beginning the Soviet Union was to be implemented democratically. joshcryer Mar 2012 #50

The Mensheviks Octafish Mar 2012 #71

Yep, Socialist Revolutionaries, Left Socialist Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, and anarchists. joshcryer Mar 2012 #78

Bingo!!! Zalatix Mar 2012 #113

Greater equality of the sexes. geek tragedy Mar 2012 #24

YES. Half the Politburo were women, if I remember correctly (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #41

Seriously? muriel_volestrangler Mar 2012 #153

Well, I know people who came from there and people who studied there as grad students Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2012 #27

In addition to other positives mentioned upthread... Starry Messenger Mar 2012 #29

Jobs for all who were willing to become slaves to the system. boppers Mar 2012 #31

If not for the Soviet Union, we many never have experienced Eduard Khil !!! Joe Shlabotnik Mar 2012 #32

and Yakov Smirnoff IDemo Mar 2012 #79

motivated America to do a lot of good things , helped defeat NAzi Germany JI7 Mar 2012 #33

The best thing about Soviet Union was a complete absence of profit motive Fool Count Mar 2012 #34

It would have been more valuable had it not failed so spectacularly bhikkhu Mar 2012 #37

But besides that... kudos... JSnuffy Mar 2012 #42

That "ruined environments, ruined economy and shattered society" will look Fool Count Mar 2012 #45

Agree with that completely. nt TBF Mar 2012 #89

True, they did collapse while there were still resources left to burn through bhikkhu Mar 2012 #98

The Soviet Union was certainly an invaluable showcase for a system without any profit motive (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #43

Are you kidding me? joshcryer Mar 2012 #54

I am not kidding you, I lived there. And I don't see how anything you say here about cronyism Fool Count Mar 2012 #103

What point was I trying to invalidate? You were just suggesting one side of the coin. joshcryer Mar 2012 #106

Cronyism (and nepotism) run deep in every country around the world, including the US. LooseWilly Mar 2012 #145

Cronyism is more apparent in these so called "socialist" systems, and easier to hide. joshcryer Mar 2012 #149

No, it wasn't. Everything you have said is false. Assertions without substantiation are easy. LooseWilly Mar 2012 #183

Soviets invented (modern) cinema...often forgotten in the Hollywood myth alcibiades_mystery Mar 2012 #36

Ivan Drago from "Rocky 4". Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #38

No annoying political commercials on TV. Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #39

Defeating the Third Reich .... BOHICA12 Mar 2012 #40

Also,there are several polls that show that the Russian people think they were better off under the- white_wolf Mar 2012 #46

+100 Taverner Mar 2012 #82

Are you going to do obliviously Mar 2012 #47

Bullshit comparison and you know it. white_wolf Mar 2012 #49

61,911,000 Victims obliviously Mar 2012 #53

The Holocaust was deliberate murder. white_wolf Mar 2012 #55

Post removed Post removed Mar 2012 #57

Jesus FUCK - what kind of retort is that??? Taverner Mar 2012 #59

Read the links obliviously Mar 2012 #65

Bullshit! I clearly said I don't support the USSR. white_wolf Mar 2012 #61

Who is that guy in your avatar? boppers Mar 2012 #67

Karl Marx... white_wolf Mar 2012 #70

Marx was a philosopher, not a politician. boppers Mar 2012 #85

Marx =/= USSR Taverner Mar 2012 #72

Oh it was Marxist-Lennist for sure. white_wolf Mar 2012 #81

I don't know about that RZM Mar 2012 #96

Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust obliviously Mar 2012 #60

Erm, the Red Terror was certainly deliberate as were many mass atrocities in the Soviet Union. joshcryer Mar 2012 #64

Stalin's regime was monstrous. There is no denying that. white_wolf Mar 2012 #68

The poster made a shitty quip but Stalin did mass murder people, it's unquestionable. joshcryer Mar 2012 #76

I said Stalin's reign was monstrous. white_wolf Mar 2012 #80

"A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia" puts it at a minimum of 25 million massacred. Zalatix Mar 2012 #156

61.911,000? Really? You don't say. Why not 61,911,457? Fool Count Mar 2012 #105

It was 160 million before the October Revolution, 8 years later? 130 million. joshcryer Mar 2012 #107

Thank you. nt. Starry Messenger Mar 2012 #122

I'm sure you have similar criticisms of the genocide of Native Americans baldguy Mar 2012 #111

They put a robot on the moon. Other than that, the political system was murderous. joshcryer Mar 2012 #48

No it wasn't. And no, it didn't. The very statement that Fool Count Mar 2012 #127

I have not encountered any undeserved criticism of the USSR. joshcryer Mar 2012 #131

Like you have not encountered a war you didn't like? Fool Count Mar 2012 #132

Oh, so you don't think Russia's imperialist forays into Afghanistan deserved criticism? joshcryer Mar 2012 #134

Post removed Post removed Mar 2012 #136

Post removed Post removed Mar 2012 #139

Enlighten yourself obliviously Mar 2012 #52

they produced awesome chess players Enrique Mar 2012 #56

They scared rich people elsewhere into playing nice for a while JHB Mar 2012 #58

+100 Taverner Mar 2012 #75

The rich people were the senior members of the Communist Party. Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #88

I think you missed the key word "elsewhere". n/t JHB Mar 2012 #147

Agree. nt TBF Mar 2012 #91

They had some truly great musicians dmallind Mar 2012 #62

Oooh, they had great mustaches and beards, too! boppers Mar 2012 #69

...um... Taverner Mar 2012 #73

Hey, when I saw "musicians" I read it as "mustaches". boppers Mar 2012 #86

I'm unsure a rigid central authority is needed or even beneficial for beard growth, but if you like. dmallind Mar 2012 #160

Vodka technology advanced by DECADES Canuckistanian Mar 2012 #74

In only 70 years, no less! eom boppers Mar 2012 #87

Yuri Gagarin Octafish Mar 2012 #77

This thread made me think about Shankapotomus Mar 2012 #84

Dunno - there's quite a lot of red-baiting in this thread. TBF Mar 2012 #93

There are several things I'd like to post countering comments in the thread. Starry Messenger Mar 2012 #94

My views are left of yours and I have been posting them repeatedly throughout this thread. joshcryer Mar 2012 #108

How brave of you, saying that USSR was a totalitarian dictatorship oppressing its people. Fool Count Mar 2012 #130

Nope, some on the left avoid touching on the issue of totalitarian Russia. joshcryer Mar 2012 #135

Really? Shankapotomus Mar 2012 #151

Read the TOS very closely TBF Mar 2012 #186

would make a GREAT movie. "The Softer Side of Stalin" nt Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #90

"...\.what was GOOD about the Soviet Union?" unkachuck Mar 2012 #92

+1 When The Soviets fell, "Greed is Good" became the mantra. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #143

re: "no one starves" cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #95

significant increase in literacy in 11 years. provis99 Mar 2012 #97

And do you know what was going on there during the time of the Great Depression? RZM Mar 2012 #144

non-sequitur. provis99 Mar 2012 #169

Nope. America would never do something like that to our own people.... Taverner Mar 2012 #170

Your examples took place many generations before the terror famine RZM Mar 2012 #171

Stalin was a few generations ago too... Taverner Mar 2012 #172

But not nearly as many as the trail of tears or slavery RZM Mar 2012 #175

There was a lot of social mobility in the early years, notably during the Five Year Plans RZM Mar 2012 #99

The olympics didn't suck Tabasco_Dave Mar 2012 #100

It's just a distraction from the stupidity of Republicanism gulliver Mar 2012 #102

This message was self-deleted by its author Boojatta Apr 2012 #189

I will answer that! The US had to silence the Soviet Union because it did not want any competition ! akbacchus_BC Mar 2012 #110

The USSR wasn't as different from the US as we think. backscatter712 Mar 2012 #116

Soviet technology built the world's largest transistor. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2012 #120

But everyone had to join the union. Kablooie Mar 2012 #128

If they were more democratic, in the real sense of the term, it could have worked better. JNathanK Mar 2012 #137

Nearly universal higher education Kwarg Mar 2012 #138

Fodder for Republican scare tactics against ANYTHING approaching the idea of common resources. alp227 Mar 2012 #140

More of a solidarity feeling with others steve2470 Mar 2012 #152

I think they had a low crime rate. aikoaiko Mar 2012 #157

They had a cool national anthem. Swede Mar 2012 #162

Their national team was kinda-sorta good at hockey, too... Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #164

The Russian Federation still has the same anthem, but with different lyrics RZM Mar 2012 #166

Their 1972 Olympic Basketball team. cherokeeprogressive Mar 2012 #165

Uh..... Gruntled Old Man Mar 2012 #168

in soviet russia, the thread locks you.... dionysus Mar 2012 #179

They pulled Russia out of feudalism KamaAina Mar 2012 #187

I wish I could find the appropriate scene from Dr.Zhivago, but this'll have to do Leopolds Ghost Mar 2012 #188