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In reply to the discussion: This is a constitutional crisis. [View all]Uncle Joe
(64,368 posts)25. Just by threatening to not raise the debt limit, the Republicans have violated the 14th Amendment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_limit#Debt_ceiling
If the debt ceiling is not raised by the time extraordinary measures are exhausted, the government will be unable to pay its financial obligations. The United States has never reached this point. If extraordinary measures are exhausted, the executive branch has the authority to determine which obligations are paid and which are not.[25]
Failure to pay obligations has been characterized as a default; however, some have argued that the executive branch can choose to prioritize interest payments on bonds, which would avoid an immediate, direct default on sovereign debt. During the debt ceiling crisis in 2011, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geitner argued that prioritization of interest payments would not help since government expenditures would have needed to be cut by an unrealistic 40% if the debt ceiling is not raised. Also, a default on non-debt obligations would still undermine American creditworthiness according to at least one rating agency.[26] In 2011, the Treasury suggested that it could not prioritize certain types of expenditures because all expenditures are on equal footing under the law. In this view, when extraordinary measures are exhausted, no payments could be made at all and the United States would be in default on all of its obligations.[27] The CBO notes that prioritization would not avoid the technical definition found in Black's Law Dictionary where default is defined as the failure to make a payment when due.[28]
Controversy[edit]A vote to increase the debt ceiling is usually seen as a formality[by whom?], needed to continue spending that has already been approved previously by Congress and the President. Earlier reports to Congress from experts have repeatedly said that the debt limit is an ineffective means to restrain the growth of debt.[8] James Surowiecki argues that the debt ceiling originally served a useful purpose. When introduced, the President had stronger authority to borrow and spend as he pleased; however, after 1974, Congress began passing comprehensive budget resolutions that specify exactly how much money the government can spend.[9] The apparent redundancy of the debt ceiling has led to suggestions that it should be abolished altogether.[29][30]
A January 2013 poll of a panel of highly regarded economists found that 84% agreed or strongly agreed that, since Congress already approves spending and taxation, "a separate debt ceiling that has to be increased periodically creates unneeded uncertainty and can potentially lead to worse fiscal outcomes." Only one member of the panel, Luigi Zingales, disagreed with the statement.[31]
I agree with that the Supreme Court will need to decide.
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seems to me house members could demand a vote. stand up and demand it until they get it.
robinlynne
Oct 2013
#1
If the House sends over a new version of the CR with the same H. Joint Res. number
onenote
Oct 2013
#12
Political gridlock on major issues is not an invention of the 20th century
Nuclear Unicorn
Oct 2013
#6
I don't think this will destroy the government. It isn't a real 'constitutional crisis'
PoliticAverse
Oct 2013
#9
actually, the "rules of its proceedings" don't assume anything about whether the body will proceed
onenote
Oct 2013
#28
But, is it legal to "filibuster" the budget of the United States for the sole purpose....
kentuck
Oct 2013
#34
Nothing in the constitution precludes one side from seeking the complete capitulation of the other
onenote
Oct 2013
#42
That still doesn't answer the question of what version of a debt ceiling increase becomes law
onenote
Oct 2013
#70
The debt and the debt limit are two different things, the debt limit De Facto violates the 14th
Uncle Joe
Oct 2013
#15
Precisely and only two Constitutional Nations have a debt limit, the U.S. and Denmark
Uncle Joe
Oct 2013
#22
I don't think it necessarily does, as the Government can raise money without borrowing more
PoliticAverse
Oct 2013
#19
Just by threatening to not raise the debt limit, the Republicans have violated the 14th Amendment.
Uncle Joe
Oct 2013
#25
That would mean that by actually vetoing a debt ceiling increase, President Clinton violated the 14h
onenote
Oct 2013
#29
Clinton didn't veto the debt ceiling increase, he vetoed the spending bill, Newt Gingrich threatened
Uncle Joe
Oct 2013
#35
Which is why I would expect the courts to rule that the government must pay the debt.
PoliticAverse
Oct 2013
#30
Paying late is "calling in to question" not to mention the fact that late payments increase interest
Uncle Joe
Oct 2013
#44
I believe they will use the Fourteenth Amendment to establish a case to override
Baitball Blogger
Oct 2013
#4
It is a Constitutional Crises that has cracked the Constitution to its core....
Agnosticsherbet
Oct 2013
#16
The 14th amendment and "emergency powers" gives Obama all the cover he needs.
Renew Deal
Oct 2013
#54
The Obama administation has consistantly stated that would not be Constitutional.
Agnosticsherbet
Oct 2013
#73
The early congresses had rules about when duelling was and wasn't allowed between members
Recursion
Oct 2013
#27
President Clinton vetoed a debt ceiling bill against the wishes of a majority of the two houses
onenote
Oct 2013
#62