General Discussion

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)

92. Nope

Sat Oct 26, 2013, 06:24 PM

Oct 2013

not a successful socialist party at the national level, never. Unlike France, Germany, the UK, Sweden, Italy, pretty much evey European country. There've been some vague social-democratic tendencies (Social Security, Medicare), but not recently, not in a very long time, and the USA is economically very right-wing (the worst worker protections of any Western country), socially very right-wing (largest prison population and one of only two G8 countries to retain the death penalty...in the other, Japan, it's rarely carried out); and there's no disagreement whatever between the major parties on broad economic issues (see: NAFTA, which Clinton gets the credit/blame for, negotiations started under a Republican administration; see also TPP, negotiations started under Bush, but Obama's fast-tracking it).

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The opposite of libertarian political ideology is not left or liberal, it's authoritarian. [View all] Uncle Joe Oct 2013 OP

That's world wide... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #1

That's universal and the Libertarian Party in the U.S. is in the far right quadrant. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #3

Politics in America is NOT the same as the rest of the world... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #11

Are you saying we're "Exceptional"? TalkingDog Oct 2013 #25

if you define different exactly the same as "exceptional" VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #29

That's pretty much the crux of it. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #45

+1 leftstreet Oct 2013 #184

Nice example of authoritarianism RobertEarl Oct 2013 #26

Wait I didn't get the memo...Democrats on DU are supposed to be Mavericks... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #31

10 posts on this thread already from you RobertEarl Oct 2013 #44

RobertEarl deciding how many posts one can make on a single thread... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #49

Politics is politics. The US has been dragged to the Right sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #27

and become Anarchist? Or align themselves with the Anarchists...or OUR fringe.. VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #35

Do you support cuts to SS? I believe I asked this before but sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #50

are you an Anarchist or a Far Left fringe...You answer me first! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #54

Are you or have you ever been a member..... NoOneMan Oct 2013 #87

So you cannot deny....that's good to know... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #121

Nice dodge on Sabrinas question.... Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #120

Not a dodge...I am not an Anarchist..Or a Libertarian....are YOU? VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #122

I will ask again, flat out...... Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #124

... Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #127

Thanks Uncle Joe!!!!! Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #129

LOL nt Mojorabbit Oct 2013 #253

And just to make you "flat out" crazy...I refuse to comply with your demand... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #132

It's a simple question, and since so many of us have gone out of our ways to educate you NuclearDem Oct 2013 #137

YOU ain't educating ME! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #140

You were obviously confused on anarchism. I defined it for you. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #143

OH Hell no I AM NoT VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #145

Apparently not the definition of troll. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #146

You sure as hell defend it! I am opposed to Anarchy....and I will continue to say so... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #158

Which form of anarchy do you oppose? Anarcho-syndicalism? Anarcho-communalism? Anarcho-primatism?... NoOneMan Oct 2013 #166

Do you stay up at night fearing the anarchists? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #154

Seriously, reach for the decaf NoOneMan Oct 2013 #150

That was pompous. nt treestar Oct 2013 #218

VR was behaving like a childish troll. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #220

Did not make a "demand" asked a simple question thats all. Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #139

Post removed Post removed Oct 2013 #144

A well liked "FORMER" republican around here if you please, with higher post counts and .... Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #148

Must be a bot! Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #133

ho hum... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #135

Your to cool, i like you, you are fun, please stay around if you can. Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #142

I ain't going no where...Republican Anarchist.... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #149

OK, let me school on this bleeding heart liberal Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #159

Now, you do realize no one around here are afraid of anarchists and socialists anymore? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #163

Or just a troll. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #160

Oh, such a pity. Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #205

Sabrina asked you a question on actual *policy*, and you went back to labels. Marr Oct 2013 #246

Are you seriously dragging your anarchist nonsense into this one too? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #79

its not nonsense...its backed up with facts... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #86

What isn't backed up by anything is you lashing out blindly at this boogeyman NoOneMan Oct 2013 #89

In Spain, leading up to its civil war, which the fascists won, tblue37 Oct 2013 #162

And American soldiers (the Lincoln Brigade) supported the anarchists RainDog Oct 2013 #174

"Left libertarians" always makes me giggle Scootaloo Oct 2013 #91

The problem with liberal is that it's being watered down into irrelevance too. JoeyT Oct 2013 #115

I guess chomsky is run of the mill RedCappedBandit Oct 2013 #134

there is a far left...just like a far right...Far Lefties are the Anarchists... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #138

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about there, VR. n/t Scootaloo Oct 2013 #176

Libertarians occupy the bottom right quadrant. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #7

No it doesn't ....politics are not the same the world over... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #13

Check all the previous times we've taken this test here. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #21

Its not about a test...its about the rules here at DU VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #36

Sorry, is there some rule banning DUers from advocating pushing the Democrats to the actual left? NuclearDem Oct 2013 #47

No but it clearly says "within the system" VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #52

Fixing the system is working within the system. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #61

fixing it is one thing....becoming Anarchist...is not it... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #64

Not all anarchists are hiding in scary caves and plotting the overthrow of the system. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #73

Anarchist means chaos... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #82

No it doesn't. Just because you don't understand anarchism doesn't mean you get to make up shit. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #90

Then Anarchism is just as fucked up as (RW) Libertarianism. MicaelS Oct 2013 #117

You know there's a difference between personal property and private property right? NuclearDem Oct 2013 #119

they do call for the abolition of the American style of govt I know that much! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #155

So what happens to my "personal property" when I die? MicaelS Oct 2013 #161

"None of which relied on the labors of others." Lordquinton Oct 2013 #178

And you haven't answered the important question? MicaelS Oct 2013 #192

I was never asked that question Lordquinton Oct 2013 #194

That's exactly what I think is going to be the answer. MicaelS Oct 2013 #195

Why? Lordquinton Oct 2013 #197

AGREED! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #153

You're welcome. n/t MicaelS Oct 2013 #156

I understand it quite well...Oxford and Websters Agree with me not YOU! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #151

Oh, aren't you a dear. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #157

I think that person was talking about personal political ideology RainDog Oct 2013 #147

That's a perfect sentence which sums it up for me as well. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #222

I occupy the top left. n/t Chan790 Oct 2013 #53

And yet your signature says "Civil Libertarian" muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #173

No. Every time I take the quiz that the graph is based off... Chan790 Oct 2013 #199

Leser is wrong - it's a British website that originated it, not Nolan muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #216

Leser is 100% correct. It's called a Nolan chart after RWNJ David Nolan ucrdem Oct 2013 #256

And this is a different chart, and different questions muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #258

Same chart, same purpose. nt ucrdem Oct 2013 #259

Are you unable to see the picture you posted yourself? Or the one in the OP? muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #260

The artwork is different, the charts are the same. ucrdem Oct 2013 #261

Your blinkered view of reality makes your posts not worth reading muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #262

The chart is a Nolan chart, sorry. More here: ucrdem Oct 2013 #264

It's from Political Compass muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #266

Yes, the mystery site. Mystery solved. ucrdem Oct 2013 #267

We changed the definition. That doesn't make the original meaning change. TalkingDog Oct 2013 #32

Bingo! The opposite of authoritarian is egalitarian. n/t Egalitarian Thug Oct 2013 #76

I guess that makes me a European then. Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #104

The constant grade school logic in the propaganda is so insulting. woo me with science Oct 2013 #2

I agree it's simplistic, lazy and totally partisan thinking and I mean partisan to extent of Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #8

Exactly.n/t sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #38

I believe the point is to stifle discussion. nt Demo_Chris Oct 2013 #59

Of course you are correct. woo me with science Oct 2013 #75

+666. nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #238

Obama's also in that top right quadrant. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #4

So was Clinton in large part because the corporate media has dragged the nation's politics Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #12

Also important to see how much we need to drag our politics down and leftwards. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #23

Fuck Ron Paul. nt msanthrope Oct 2013 #5

There are no right wing liberals, despite several attempts Rex Oct 2013 #6

that's EXACTLY why you cannot compare American Politics with this graph! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #15

True! American politics is all over the place, that graph is neat and tidy. Rex Oct 2013 #19

Sure you can Spider Jerusalem Oct 2013 #74

Your opinion is showing... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #80

Nope Spider Jerusalem Oct 2013 #92

Good post, Spider Jerusalem. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #164

I agree there is no right wing liberal, but in regards to our nation's current political Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #20

Well we need to op-out of purity tests of all forms and kinds. Rex Oct 2013 #37

and there is also a Leftwing fringe.... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #40

There is a fringe on everything but our nation has been dominated by the right wing authoritarian Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #56

So we need Anarchy to solve it? VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #62

We need a shift to the left wing libertarian quadrant of the political spectrum, that's not anarchy Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #99

that "quadrant" doesn't work in this situation sorry.... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #106

The authoritarian controlled corporate media will do their best to prove you correct but I believe Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #110

just what I thought....another Anarchist... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #111

Well if that's what you thought, here's another Deep Thought from Jack Handey. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #116

and? You know that world...if there are humans in it...doesn't and couldn't exist right? VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #118

That's were you and I disagree in regards to our belief of human societies' capacity to evolve. n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #123

That poster's mind is closed/blind to what you are saying. ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #240

I believe people can change their point of view whether said poster does or not Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #241

True. ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #243

That's because you're the walking dead Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #247

So true. nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #249

Where are people saying there are right-wing liberals? nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #251

The main difference is motivation (greed) Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #9

I'm speaking of political ideology not political party, lefties and libertarians can be Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #33

No where in my post did I reference party Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #84

You capitialized the word "Libertarians" so I assumed you were talking of the party Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #95

I have a bad habit of randomly Capitalizing things out of Place. Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #101

Ha! nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #242

The opposite of libertarian economic philosophy is communism. n/t pnwmom Oct 2013 #10

It can also be fascism, Hitler or Mussolini would be in the far right authoritarian quandrant. n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #39

Not in economic philosophy. The opposite of libertarianism's pnwmom Oct 2013 #60

Most definitely in government authoritarian policies toward the citizens. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #71

But that's the point, including your OP - those policies put them at the top of the graph muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #177

Hitler was to the right and Stalin was to the left but they were both authoritarians. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #179

I always show up as very left, very libertarian Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #14

Yes in regards to the world.... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #17

I'm pushing Gandhi territory... WorseBeforeBetter Oct 2013 #24

Why are so many people here promoting libertarianism pnwmom Oct 2013 #16

because they want to be accepted as mainstream on DU... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #18

The difference between capital L Libertarians Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #22

There is virtually no difference in the economic philosophy. pnwmom Oct 2013 #34

My guess, though, is that she would have fallen to the right Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #65

Your definition leaves out any concern for other people's welfare, pnwmom Oct 2013 #72

I am concerned for other people's welfare to a point, Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #85

There is a difference between right wing and left wing libertarianism as Raindog posted upthread. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #223

I agree gollygee Oct 2013 #28

+1 freshwest Oct 2013 #204

Libertarians do, but libertarians do not. ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #245

Because they are afraid of meeting the same fate as dkf? BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #30

BINGO! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #46

The idea of letting corporations control everything and a free market Rex Oct 2013 #48

Just to be clear, ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #248

Of course just to be clear. Rex Oct 2013 #255

Because authoritarianism has become a disaster for our nation and if anything has been holding back Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #51

How would any form of libertarianism curb corporate abuse and power, pnwmom Oct 2013 #55

Civil libertarianism. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #66

Then support civil liberties. Drop the "ism" -- which is what connects pnwmom Oct 2013 #69

No, it doesn't. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #78

It does not connect anyone to RW libertarianism LostOne4Ever Oct 2013 #209

NuclearDem is using the correct term. nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #250

True there is a difference between civil libertarians and political libertarians. Rex Oct 2013 #70

Yes -- and most civil libertarians don't believe in libertarianISM, pnwmom Oct 2013 #170

True in the real world, civil libertarians would be fighting against Rex Oct 2013 #186

How do you "tightly regulate" an economy without massive authority? bhikkhu Oct 2013 #126

Authoritarianism != pure authority. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #130

Left wing libertarianism does not believe in corporate supremacy over the state. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #68

You can't have a society without authority. BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #67

No one said you can, all quadrants on the political compass have extremes but the idea of demonizing Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #83

Because they are horning on on the failed wars on drugs and random countries Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #88

Is US Senator Wyden a right winger? nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #113

I think you may benefit from asking ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #244

I agree with your concept. But in practice, Teabaggers are liberty-talkin' authoritarians BlueStreak Oct 2013 #41

I totally agree, BlueStreak but the TeaBaggers are more an example of politics, not philosophy. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #93

Other than teabaggers (ifaux-libertarians), there isn't any significant libertarian movement BlueStreak Oct 2013 #202

There are libertarians on the left but they also believe in "collective compassion" that's what Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #224

Well, tell me which of these people BlueStreak Oct 2013 #225

You're conflating political party with philosophy, none of those people you cited are on the left. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #228

Perhaps, but Cruz identifies himself as a libertarian. Does Grayson? BlueStreak Oct 2013 #231

I believe Grayson's political positions and speeches would put him in the left libertarian quadrant. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #232

The 2 dimensions in your chart are BlueStreak Oct 2013 #233

Two dimensions would be left/right only, there are 4 dimensions in my OP Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #234

I don't mean to be pedantic, but your chart is 2 dimensions. BlueStreak Oct 2013 #235

Then as my P.S. pointed out two dimensional thinking is still better than one. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #236

in the US arely staircase Oct 2013 #42

One issue with this chart is that it is designed by a Rightwing Libertarian named David Nolan stevenleser Oct 2013 #43

So are you saying Pol Pot wasn't a Lefty Authortarian? Rex Oct 2013 #57

I think the particular economic model is completely incidental to most dictators. stevenleser Oct 2013 #77

I agree, they should fall right under the word 'authoritarian' imo. Rex Oct 2013 #81

Libertarians have always struck me as closet Feudalists. MicaelS Oct 2013 #196

You too, huh? Prophet 451 Oct 2013 #208

More like without the balls to admit it. MicaelS Oct 2013 #211

That specific chart, maybe. But the original test and Political Compass dot Org: TalkingDog Oct 2013 #63

Just glanced over their write-up of the 2012 election sagat Oct 2013 #169

imo, President Obama will be remembered as a great president RainDog Oct 2013 #188

That may be true, but every time I take it - I find it accurate Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #96

You understand that according to that chart, you are about as authoritarian as Margaret Thatcher stevenleser Oct 2013 #98

Oh -- I see what you are saying Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #103

Sorry im not seeing it. LostOne4Ever Oct 2013 #212

The person to whom I responded was a -2 as is Mandela and Thatcher according to that chart nt stevenleser Oct 2013 #217

Where does it show Thatcher as a -2 LostOne4Ever Oct 2013 #257

Only if you look at their feet, which is clearly wrong muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #263

There are a multitude of quadrant charts but the point being that libertarian and authoritarian Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #102

Follow the money. Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #105

I disagree. This is a construct of those attempting to promote Rightwing Libertarianism. stevenleser Oct 2013 #109

Taking aside the personalities in the quadrant graph, why do you disagree with the concept Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #114

Agree, I first ran into this chart when looking treestar Oct 2013 #221

Having a political ideology seems beyond George W Bush's capability. FarCenter Oct 2013 #58

Fuck Ron Paul...nt SidDithers Oct 2013 #94

If you really want to have at it, I'm not opposed to homosexuality, to each his or her own. n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #100

That's funny. I thought Libertarians were just republicans who smoked pot and... Walk away Oct 2013 #97

Wyden is a libertarian nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #107

There is a difference between "Libertarian Party" and libertarian philosophy. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #108

That's the way I see it, too. Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #112

Me and Mr. Paine RainDog Oct 2013 #125

One of my favorite tunes by Billy Paul Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #131

that's the one... RainDog Oct 2013 #167

That left/libertarian had a most powerful presence and sense of self. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #172

hello dalai RainDog Oct 2013 #181

Thanks, RainDog, that's a pretty song. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #185

Maybe in some abstract academic sense, but the strains of libertarianism cheapdate Oct 2013 #128

You speak of the "right wing" party not the philosophy. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #141

Where is that political model of a circle applegrove Oct 2013 #136

If you find it let me know but I believe Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #152

I think Libertarianism means anarchy, and anarchy results in strongmen, which applegrove Oct 2013 #189

There should be balance between libertarianism and authoritarianism but there hasn't been. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #190

IMO, because being a genuine liberal means being tolerant, all real liberals are libertarian Zorra Oct 2013 #165

I totally agree with your take on it Zorra. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #168

Sure, insofar as other people's rights aren't infringed NoOneMan Oct 2013 #171

You're mixing political party and philosophy Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #175

I would debate this to some extent... Chan790 Oct 2013 #200

Well, nothing I wrote indicated that liberals were not, and could not, be statists, and Zorra Oct 2013 #203

Who defines "within reason"? Chan790 Oct 2013 #206

Well, that's what liberal law and democracy is all about. Using reason and Zorra Oct 2013 #207

The cries of "libertarian" have nothing to do with actual political leanings. last1standing Oct 2013 #180

That may be the case, last1standing, Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #182

Actually Libertarians love free trade. SolutionisSolidarity Oct 2013 #183

1. You conflate the Libertarian Party with libertarian philosophy, the OP is about the philosophy. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #187

The thing is that American-style libertarianism leads to fascism. backscatter712 Oct 2013 #191

Authoritarians have brought us that, not libertarians as I posted upthread. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #193

Thanks For The Thread, Uncle Joe !!! WillyT Oct 2013 #198

Thanks for the thanks, WillyT. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #227

yep, liberals and libertarians have several key issues in common quinnox Oct 2013 #201

Love it, thanks for the vindication in a pic:) Miranda4peace Oct 2013 #210

According to Libertarians AgingAmerican Oct 2013 #213

The issue here really is... LeftishBrit Oct 2013 #214

Libertarianism in the U.S. is characterized by two principles: LuvNewcastle Oct 2013 #215

Freedom to conduct white collar crime and pollute is different from freedom to own guns BlueStreak Oct 2013 #252

When you cede words you cede power. Here in the U.S. the word "liberal" has been demonized Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #226

What I meant here... LeftishBrit Oct 2013 #229

We are in agreement in regards to the devastating effects of "economic libertarianism," where we Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #230

Listen to Leser. Fran�ois Hollande is no "libertarian" by any stretch of the imagination ucrdem Oct 2013 #219

I disagree with the quadrant model, but I still find it better than the left/right model. ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #237

I believe it's an improvement as well, ZombieHorde and I agree that behavior is paramount. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #239

There is no such thing as a leftwing Libertarian. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #254

Big "L" Libertarians in US vernacular refers to the Libertarian Party. joshcryer Oct 2013 #265

A person may be liberal from an economic standpoint and not of a civil or social point of view and Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #268

Except for when libertarianism overlaps with authoritarianism. Orsino Oct 2013 #269

I agree, but that combination is in the right wing quadrant. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #270

P.S. The polar opposite of neutral based libertarianism between Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #271