General Discussion

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)

115. The problem with liberal is that it's being watered down into irrelevance too.

Sat Oct 26, 2013, 07:04 PM

Oct 2013

All you need to do to see it is go to any thread where someone is spouting the most illiberal drivel imaginable and wait for someone to say they aren't actually a liberal or progressive. They'll explode with outrage. Of COURSE they're a liberal. How DARE you say they aren't. I mean, sure they don't hold a single liberal position, but they're a liberal, goddamnit.

Free trade is not a liberal position. Being for the government spying on all its citizens is not a liberal position. Being pro-drone strikes because Muslim = terrorist is not a liberal position. Insisting people should never ever question anything anyone in authority says is not a liberal position. Thinking that poor people are just kind of icky isn't a liberal position. And yet accusing people that regularly and loudly advocate for one or all of those of not being a liberal can get you a hidden post.

It isn't just on DU, it's everywhere, of course. I just brought it up as on here because you don't even have to go to another website to see it.

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The opposite of libertarian political ideology is not left or liberal, it's authoritarian. [View all] Uncle Joe Oct 2013 OP

That's world wide... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #1

That's universal and the Libertarian Party in the U.S. is in the far right quadrant. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #3

Politics in America is NOT the same as the rest of the world... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #11

Are you saying we're "Exceptional"? TalkingDog Oct 2013 #25

if you define different exactly the same as "exceptional" VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #29

That's pretty much the crux of it. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #45

+1 leftstreet Oct 2013 #184

Nice example of authoritarianism RobertEarl Oct 2013 #26

Wait I didn't get the memo...Democrats on DU are supposed to be Mavericks... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #31

10 posts on this thread already from you RobertEarl Oct 2013 #44

RobertEarl deciding how many posts one can make on a single thread... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #49

Politics is politics. The US has been dragged to the Right sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #27

and become Anarchist? Or align themselves with the Anarchists...or OUR fringe.. VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #35

Do you support cuts to SS? I believe I asked this before but sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #50

are you an Anarchist or a Far Left fringe...You answer me first! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #54

Are you or have you ever been a member..... NoOneMan Oct 2013 #87

So you cannot deny....that's good to know... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #121

Nice dodge on Sabrinas question.... Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #120

Not a dodge...I am not an Anarchist..Or a Libertarian....are YOU? VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #122

I will ask again, flat out...... Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #124

... Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #127

Thanks Uncle Joe!!!!! Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #129

LOL nt Mojorabbit Oct 2013 #253

And just to make you "flat out" crazy...I refuse to comply with your demand... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #132

It's a simple question, and since so many of us have gone out of our ways to educate you NuclearDem Oct 2013 #137

YOU ain't educating ME! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #140

You were obviously confused on anarchism. I defined it for you. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #143

OH Hell no I AM NoT VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #145

Apparently not the definition of troll. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #146

You sure as hell defend it! I am opposed to Anarchy....and I will continue to say so... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #158

Which form of anarchy do you oppose? Anarcho-syndicalism? Anarcho-communalism? Anarcho-primatism?... NoOneMan Oct 2013 #166

Do you stay up at night fearing the anarchists? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #154

Seriously, reach for the decaf NoOneMan Oct 2013 #150

That was pompous. nt treestar Oct 2013 #218

VR was behaving like a childish troll. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #220

Did not make a "demand" asked a simple question thats all. Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #139

Post removed Post removed Oct 2013 #144

A well liked "FORMER" republican around here if you please, with higher post counts and .... Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #148

Must be a bot! Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #133

ho hum... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #135

Your to cool, i like you, you are fun, please stay around if you can. Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #142

I ain't going no where...Republican Anarchist.... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #149

OK, let me school on this bleeding heart liberal Rebellious Republican Oct 2013 #159

Now, you do realize no one around here are afraid of anarchists and socialists anymore? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #163

Or just a troll. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #160

Oh, such a pity. Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #205

Sabrina asked you a question on actual *policy*, and you went back to labels. Marr Oct 2013 #246

Are you seriously dragging your anarchist nonsense into this one too? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #79

its not nonsense...its backed up with facts... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #86

What isn't backed up by anything is you lashing out blindly at this boogeyman NoOneMan Oct 2013 #89

In Spain, leading up to its civil war, which the fascists won, tblue37 Oct 2013 #162

And American soldiers (the Lincoln Brigade) supported the anarchists RainDog Oct 2013 #174

"Left libertarians" always makes me giggle Scootaloo Oct 2013 #91

The problem with liberal is that it's being watered down into irrelevance too. JoeyT Oct 2013 #115

I guess chomsky is run of the mill RedCappedBandit Oct 2013 #134

there is a far left...just like a far right...Far Lefties are the Anarchists... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #138

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about there, VR. n/t Scootaloo Oct 2013 #176

Libertarians occupy the bottom right quadrant. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #7

No it doesn't ....politics are not the same the world over... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #13

Check all the previous times we've taken this test here. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #21

Its not about a test...its about the rules here at DU VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #36

Sorry, is there some rule banning DUers from advocating pushing the Democrats to the actual left? NuclearDem Oct 2013 #47

No but it clearly says "within the system" VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #52

Fixing the system is working within the system. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #61

fixing it is one thing....becoming Anarchist...is not it... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #64

Not all anarchists are hiding in scary caves and plotting the overthrow of the system. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #73

Anarchist means chaos... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #82

No it doesn't. Just because you don't understand anarchism doesn't mean you get to make up shit. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #90

Then Anarchism is just as fucked up as (RW) Libertarianism. MicaelS Oct 2013 #117

You know there's a difference between personal property and private property right? NuclearDem Oct 2013 #119

they do call for the abolition of the American style of govt I know that much! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #155

So what happens to my "personal property" when I die? MicaelS Oct 2013 #161

"None of which relied on the labors of others." Lordquinton Oct 2013 #178

And you haven't answered the important question? MicaelS Oct 2013 #192

I was never asked that question Lordquinton Oct 2013 #194

That's exactly what I think is going to be the answer. MicaelS Oct 2013 #195

Why? Lordquinton Oct 2013 #197

AGREED! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #153

You're welcome. n/t MicaelS Oct 2013 #156

I understand it quite well...Oxford and Websters Agree with me not YOU! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #151

Oh, aren't you a dear. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #157

I think that person was talking about personal political ideology RainDog Oct 2013 #147

That's a perfect sentence which sums it up for me as well. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #222

I occupy the top left. n/t Chan790 Oct 2013 #53

And yet your signature says "Civil Libertarian" muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #173

No. Every time I take the quiz that the graph is based off... Chan790 Oct 2013 #199

Leser is wrong - it's a British website that originated it, not Nolan muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #216

Leser is 100% correct. It's called a Nolan chart after RWNJ David Nolan ucrdem Oct 2013 #256

And this is a different chart, and different questions muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #258

Same chart, same purpose. nt ucrdem Oct 2013 #259

Are you unable to see the picture you posted yourself? Or the one in the OP? muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #260

The artwork is different, the charts are the same. ucrdem Oct 2013 #261

Your blinkered view of reality makes your posts not worth reading muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #262

The chart is a Nolan chart, sorry. More here: ucrdem Oct 2013 #264

It's from Political Compass muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #266

Yes, the mystery site. Mystery solved. ucrdem Oct 2013 #267

We changed the definition. That doesn't make the original meaning change. TalkingDog Oct 2013 #32

Bingo! The opposite of authoritarian is egalitarian. n/t Egalitarian Thug Oct 2013 #76

I guess that makes me a European then. Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #104

The constant grade school logic in the propaganda is so insulting. woo me with science Oct 2013 #2

I agree it's simplistic, lazy and totally partisan thinking and I mean partisan to extent of Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #8

Exactly.n/t sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #38

I believe the point is to stifle discussion. nt Demo_Chris Oct 2013 #59

Of course you are correct. woo me with science Oct 2013 #75

+666. nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #238

Obama's also in that top right quadrant. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #4

So was Clinton in large part because the corporate media has dragged the nation's politics Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #12

Also important to see how much we need to drag our politics down and leftwards. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #23

Fuck Ron Paul. nt msanthrope Oct 2013 #5

There are no right wing liberals, despite several attempts Rex Oct 2013 #6

that's EXACTLY why you cannot compare American Politics with this graph! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #15

True! American politics is all over the place, that graph is neat and tidy. Rex Oct 2013 #19

Sure you can Spider Jerusalem Oct 2013 #74

Your opinion is showing... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #80

Nope Spider Jerusalem Oct 2013 #92

Good post, Spider Jerusalem. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #164

I agree there is no right wing liberal, but in regards to our nation's current political Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #20

Well we need to op-out of purity tests of all forms and kinds. Rex Oct 2013 #37

and there is also a Leftwing fringe.... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #40

There is a fringe on everything but our nation has been dominated by the right wing authoritarian Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #56

So we need Anarchy to solve it? VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #62

We need a shift to the left wing libertarian quadrant of the political spectrum, that's not anarchy Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #99

that "quadrant" doesn't work in this situation sorry.... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #106

The authoritarian controlled corporate media will do their best to prove you correct but I believe Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #110

just what I thought....another Anarchist... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #111

Well if that's what you thought, here's another Deep Thought from Jack Handey. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #116

and? You know that world...if there are humans in it...doesn't and couldn't exist right? VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #118

That's were you and I disagree in regards to our belief of human societies' capacity to evolve. n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #123

That poster's mind is closed/blind to what you are saying. ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #240

I believe people can change their point of view whether said poster does or not Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #241

True. ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #243

That's because you're the walking dead Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #247

So true. nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #249

Where are people saying there are right-wing liberals? nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #251

The main difference is motivation (greed) Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #9

I'm speaking of political ideology not political party, lefties and libertarians can be Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #33

No where in my post did I reference party Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #84

You capitialized the word "Libertarians" so I assumed you were talking of the party Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #95

I have a bad habit of randomly Capitalizing things out of Place. Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #101

Ha! nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #242

The opposite of libertarian economic philosophy is communism. n/t pnwmom Oct 2013 #10

It can also be fascism, Hitler or Mussolini would be in the far right authoritarian quandrant. n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #39

Not in economic philosophy. The opposite of libertarianism's pnwmom Oct 2013 #60

Most definitely in government authoritarian policies toward the citizens. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #71

But that's the point, including your OP - those policies put them at the top of the graph muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #177

Hitler was to the right and Stalin was to the left but they were both authoritarians. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #179

I always show up as very left, very libertarian Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #14

Yes in regards to the world.... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #17

I'm pushing Gandhi territory... WorseBeforeBetter Oct 2013 #24

Why are so many people here promoting libertarianism pnwmom Oct 2013 #16

because they want to be accepted as mainstream on DU... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #18

The difference between capital L Libertarians Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #22

There is virtually no difference in the economic philosophy. pnwmom Oct 2013 #34

My guess, though, is that she would have fallen to the right Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #65

Your definition leaves out any concern for other people's welfare, pnwmom Oct 2013 #72

I am concerned for other people's welfare to a point, Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #85

There is a difference between right wing and left wing libertarianism as Raindog posted upthread. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #223

I agree gollygee Oct 2013 #28

+1 freshwest Oct 2013 #204

Libertarians do, but libertarians do not. ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #245

Because they are afraid of meeting the same fate as dkf? BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #30

BINGO! VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #46

The idea of letting corporations control everything and a free market Rex Oct 2013 #48

Just to be clear, ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #248

Of course just to be clear. Rex Oct 2013 #255

Because authoritarianism has become a disaster for our nation and if anything has been holding back Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #51

How would any form of libertarianism curb corporate abuse and power, pnwmom Oct 2013 #55

Civil libertarianism. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #66

Then support civil liberties. Drop the "ism" -- which is what connects pnwmom Oct 2013 #69

No, it doesn't. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #78

It does not connect anyone to RW libertarianism LostOne4Ever Oct 2013 #209

NuclearDem is using the correct term. nt ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #250

True there is a difference between civil libertarians and political libertarians. Rex Oct 2013 #70

Yes -- and most civil libertarians don't believe in libertarianISM, pnwmom Oct 2013 #170

True in the real world, civil libertarians would be fighting against Rex Oct 2013 #186

How do you "tightly regulate" an economy without massive authority? bhikkhu Oct 2013 #126

Authoritarianism != pure authority. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #130

Left wing libertarianism does not believe in corporate supremacy over the state. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #68

You can't have a society without authority. BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #67

No one said you can, all quadrants on the political compass have extremes but the idea of demonizing Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #83

Because they are horning on on the failed wars on drugs and random countries Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #88

Is US Senator Wyden a right winger? nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #113

I think you may benefit from asking ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #244

I agree with your concept. But in practice, Teabaggers are liberty-talkin' authoritarians BlueStreak Oct 2013 #41

I totally agree, BlueStreak but the TeaBaggers are more an example of politics, not philosophy. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #93

Other than teabaggers (ifaux-libertarians), there isn't any significant libertarian movement BlueStreak Oct 2013 #202

There are libertarians on the left but they also believe in "collective compassion" that's what Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #224

Well, tell me which of these people BlueStreak Oct 2013 #225

You're conflating political party with philosophy, none of those people you cited are on the left. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #228

Perhaps, but Cruz identifies himself as a libertarian. Does Grayson? BlueStreak Oct 2013 #231

I believe Grayson's political positions and speeches would put him in the left libertarian quadrant. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #232

The 2 dimensions in your chart are BlueStreak Oct 2013 #233

Two dimensions would be left/right only, there are 4 dimensions in my OP Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #234

I don't mean to be pedantic, but your chart is 2 dimensions. BlueStreak Oct 2013 #235

Then as my P.S. pointed out two dimensional thinking is still better than one. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #236

in the US arely staircase Oct 2013 #42

One issue with this chart is that it is designed by a Rightwing Libertarian named David Nolan stevenleser Oct 2013 #43

So are you saying Pol Pot wasn't a Lefty Authortarian? Rex Oct 2013 #57

I think the particular economic model is completely incidental to most dictators. stevenleser Oct 2013 #77

I agree, they should fall right under the word 'authoritarian' imo. Rex Oct 2013 #81

Libertarians have always struck me as closet Feudalists. MicaelS Oct 2013 #196

You too, huh? Prophet 451 Oct 2013 #208

More like without the balls to admit it. MicaelS Oct 2013 #211

That specific chart, maybe. But the original test and Political Compass dot Org: TalkingDog Oct 2013 #63

Just glanced over their write-up of the 2012 election sagat Oct 2013 #169

imo, President Obama will be remembered as a great president RainDog Oct 2013 #188

That may be true, but every time I take it - I find it accurate Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #96

You understand that according to that chart, you are about as authoritarian as Margaret Thatcher stevenleser Oct 2013 #98

Oh -- I see what you are saying Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #103

Sorry im not seeing it. LostOne4Ever Oct 2013 #212

The person to whom I responded was a -2 as is Mandela and Thatcher according to that chart nt stevenleser Oct 2013 #217

Where does it show Thatcher as a -2 LostOne4Ever Oct 2013 #257

Only if you look at their feet, which is clearly wrong muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #263

There are a multitude of quadrant charts but the point being that libertarian and authoritarian Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #102

Follow the money. Ruby the Liberal Oct 2013 #105

I disagree. This is a construct of those attempting to promote Rightwing Libertarianism. stevenleser Oct 2013 #109

Taking aside the personalities in the quadrant graph, why do you disagree with the concept Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #114

Agree, I first ran into this chart when looking treestar Oct 2013 #221

Having a political ideology seems beyond George W Bush's capability. FarCenter Oct 2013 #58

Fuck Ron Paul...nt SidDithers Oct 2013 #94

If you really want to have at it, I'm not opposed to homosexuality, to each his or her own. n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #100

That's funny. I thought Libertarians were just republicans who smoked pot and... Walk away Oct 2013 #97

Wyden is a libertarian nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #107

There is a difference between "Libertarian Party" and libertarian philosophy. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #108

That's the way I see it, too. Blue_In_AK Oct 2013 #112

Me and Mr. Paine RainDog Oct 2013 #125

One of my favorite tunes by Billy Paul Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #131

that's the one... RainDog Oct 2013 #167

That left/libertarian had a most powerful presence and sense of self. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #172

hello dalai RainDog Oct 2013 #181

Thanks, RainDog, that's a pretty song. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #185

Maybe in some abstract academic sense, but the strains of libertarianism cheapdate Oct 2013 #128

You speak of the "right wing" party not the philosophy. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #141

Where is that political model of a circle applegrove Oct 2013 #136

If you find it let me know but I believe Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #152

I think Libertarianism means anarchy, and anarchy results in strongmen, which applegrove Oct 2013 #189

There should be balance between libertarianism and authoritarianism but there hasn't been. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #190

IMO, because being a genuine liberal means being tolerant, all real liberals are libertarian Zorra Oct 2013 #165

I totally agree with your take on it Zorra. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #168

Sure, insofar as other people's rights aren't infringed NoOneMan Oct 2013 #171

You're mixing political party and philosophy Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #175

I would debate this to some extent... Chan790 Oct 2013 #200

Well, nothing I wrote indicated that liberals were not, and could not, be statists, and Zorra Oct 2013 #203

Who defines "within reason"? Chan790 Oct 2013 #206

Well, that's what liberal law and democracy is all about. Using reason and Zorra Oct 2013 #207

The cries of "libertarian" have nothing to do with actual political leanings. last1standing Oct 2013 #180

That may be the case, last1standing, Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #182

Actually Libertarians love free trade. SolutionisSolidarity Oct 2013 #183

1. You conflate the Libertarian Party with libertarian philosophy, the OP is about the philosophy. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #187

The thing is that American-style libertarianism leads to fascism. backscatter712 Oct 2013 #191

Authoritarians have brought us that, not libertarians as I posted upthread. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #193

Thanks For The Thread, Uncle Joe !!! WillyT Oct 2013 #198

Thanks for the thanks, WillyT. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #227

yep, liberals and libertarians have several key issues in common quinnox Oct 2013 #201

Love it, thanks for the vindication in a pic:) Miranda4peace Oct 2013 #210

According to Libertarians AgingAmerican Oct 2013 #213

The issue here really is... LeftishBrit Oct 2013 #214

Libertarianism in the U.S. is characterized by two principles: LuvNewcastle Oct 2013 #215

Freedom to conduct white collar crime and pollute is different from freedom to own guns BlueStreak Oct 2013 #252

When you cede words you cede power. Here in the U.S. the word "liberal" has been demonized Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #226

What I meant here... LeftishBrit Oct 2013 #229

We are in agreement in regards to the devastating effects of "economic libertarianism," where we Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #230

Listen to Leser. Fran�ois Hollande is no "libertarian" by any stretch of the imagination ucrdem Oct 2013 #219

I disagree with the quadrant model, but I still find it better than the left/right model. ZombieHorde Oct 2013 #237

I believe it's an improvement as well, ZombieHorde and I agree that behavior is paramount. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #239

There is no such thing as a leftwing Libertarian. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #254

Big "L" Libertarians in US vernacular refers to the Libertarian Party. joshcryer Oct 2013 #265

A person may be liberal from an economic standpoint and not of a civil or social point of view and Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #268

Except for when libertarianism overlaps with authoritarianism. Orsino Oct 2013 #269

I agree, but that combination is in the right wing quadrant. Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #270

P.S. The polar opposite of neutral based libertarianism between Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #271