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stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
110. Hyperbole + negative nationalism + simplistic arguments. The trifecta.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 07:08 PM
Oct 2013
http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

George Orwell

Notes on Nationalism

Somewhere or other Byron makes use of the French word longeur, and remarks in passing that though in England we happen not to have the word, we have the thing in considerable profusion. In the same way, there is a habit of mind which is now so widespread that it affects our thinking on nearly every subject, but which has not yet been given a name. As the nearest existing equivalent I have chosen the word ‘nationalism’, but it will be seen in a moment that I am not using it in quite the ordinary sense, if only because the emotion I am speaking about does not always attach itself to what is called a nation — that is, a single race or a geographical area. It can attach itself to a church or a class, or it may work in a merely negative sense, against something or other and without the need for any positive object of loyalty.
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It is also worth emphasising once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. When one grasps the implications of this, the nature of what I mean by nationalism becomes a good deal clearer. A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist — that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating — but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also — since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself — unshakeably certain of being in the right.
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Negative Nationalism
[examples]
(i) Anglophobia. Within the intelligentsia, a derisive and mildly hostile attitude towards Britain is more or less compulsory, but it is an unfaked emotion in many cases. During the war it was manifested in the defeatism of the intelligentsia, which persisted long after it had become clear that the Axis powers could not win. Many people were undisguisedly pleased when Singapore fell ore when the British were driven out of Greece, and there was a remarkable unwillingness to believe in good news, e.g. el Alamein, or the number of German planes shot down in the Battle of Britain. English left-wing intellectuals did not, of course, actually want the Germans or Japanese to win the war, but many of them could not help getting a certain kick out of seeing their own country humiliated, and wanted to feel that the final victory would be due to Russia, or perhaps America, and not to Britain. In foreign politics many intellectuals follow the principle that any faction backed by Britain must be in the wrong. As a result, ‘enlightened’ opinion is quite largely a mirror-image of Conservative policy. Anglophobia is always liable to reversal, hence that fairly common spectacle, the pacifist of one war who is a bellicist in the next.

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Considering the only emotion most Americans seem comfortable expressing is outrage ... 1000words Oct 2013 #1
Yep. Hyperinflation and racism - fun Taverner Oct 2013 #3
From our inception. nt kelliekat44 Oct 2013 #157
Kinda early pintobean Oct 2013 #2
Very. greytdemocrat Oct 2013 #70
which is why so many flock to our borders and apply to our institutions of higher learning Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #4
It's better to be within the walls of the castle than outside it Taverner Oct 2013 #5
no. most inane points were made in your OP so I'm all tapped out. Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #6
No - if you support the empire, then I want nothing to do with your bloodlust Taverner Oct 2013 #8
You seem pretty comfortable inside the castle walls. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #41
....... Skidmore Oct 2013 #107
What... RobertEarl Oct 2013 #7
the "empire"'s fall will be long after you are gone Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #9
Not if I can help it Taverner Oct 2013 #16
quit putting words in my mouth Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #22
So you only care about yourself? RobertEarl Oct 2013 #18
I'm satirizing you. Not serious about gold. Gold prices are currently in a falling trend. Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #26
You should move to Iraq RobertEarl Oct 2013 #29
+++ 1,000 +++ n/t RKP5637 Oct 2013 #36
I can be unhappy about some of our foreign policy choices without resorting Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #43
Epic self-hate? RobertEarl Oct 2013 #61
Cheney and I also like cheese steaks Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #66
That's the word, Robert Earl... ReRe Oct 2013 #140
Mother, did it need to be so high? pintobean Oct 2013 #25
Ahhhhhhhh!!!! DJ13 Oct 2013 #128
Well it's certainly not for the health care, minimum wage, paid vacations, left-wing politics, mr blur Oct 2013 #13
Yep. If I lived in Afghanistan I would find Dearborn a safer place to live Taverner Oct 2013 #15
Even with our terrible capitalistic health care system treestar Oct 2013 #139
Ahhh . . . brush Oct 2013 #120
I hear Canada has plenty of room. Start packing your bags nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #10
"If'n you don't LOVE 'Murica how bout you leave!" Taverner Oct 2013 #12
So, you're going to accomplish your goal by expressing your hatred of the USA geek tragedy Oct 2013 #19
lol. leave this guy alone. He worships Bill Hicks. Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #46
Ladies and Gentlemen, you will see above this post an ad hominem logical fallacy Taverner Oct 2013 #55
Wait, are you seriously accusing someone of a logical fallacy? Dreamer Tatum Oct 2013 #79
Oh bullshit. You're going to put your heart into seeking approval Dreamer Tatum Oct 2013 #31
. sagat Oct 2013 #56
We should invade a town in Canada RobertEarl Oct 2013 #83
BeFree...nt SidDithers Oct 2013 #127
Fuck that. We don't want him...nt SidDithers Oct 2013 #27
You are speaking for all Canadians now? idwiyo Oct 2013 #146
handwringing at its best beachbum bob Oct 2013 #11
We are in a state of perpetual war because of attitudes like yours Taverner Oct 2013 #14
Boredom is spelled b-o-r-e-d-o-m, not c-o-n-s-c-i-e-n-c-e-s nt Dreamer Tatum Oct 2013 #39
Right, the rest of the world would be a safe utopia.. EX500rider Oct 2013 #91
It's like a reverse teabagger screed. n/t SamYeager Oct 2013 #23
"'Murica, right or wrong!" Right? Taverner Oct 2013 #49
Post removed Post removed Oct 2013 #17
Yeah yeah yeah Seeking Serenity Oct 2013 #20
"Freedom" awash in the blood of millions Taverner Oct 2013 #44
Whatever, dude Seeking Serenity Oct 2013 #52
Post removed Post removed Oct 2013 #57
Too funny. Thanks for the laughs, Taverner. Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #104
This has my vote for most ridiculous post in DU history. n/t SamYeager Oct 2013 #21
And you are well acquainted with DU history after 309 posts? Taverner Oct 2013 #47
They can't seem to resist outing themselves BainsBane Oct 2013 #94
No we're not treestar Oct 2013 #24
I think he's still pintobean Oct 2013 #28
are you kidding? noiretextatique Oct 2013 #30
right....we only choie Oct 2013 #34
+1000 this head in the sand, fingers in ears denial noiretextatique Oct 2013 #37
You're going back 40 and 60 years to justify your point that our gov't is bad? stevenleser Oct 2013 #68
We can go back about 10 years from today to the attempted coup in Venezuala. Incitatus Oct 2013 #88
uh...The Iraq invasion began 10 years ago and choie Oct 2013 #89
Which is still not the current administration. Your comment was present tense, not past tense. nt stevenleser Oct 2013 #96
The current administration's powers are limited as you know. Incitatus Oct 2013 #106
Just because we have a Democrat as president doesn't mean choie Oct 2013 #113
We have no colonies treestar Oct 2013 #136
You're clearly not familiar with the term neocolonialism. NuclearDem Oct 2013 #144
You are wrong: Hawaii, Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Phillipines were former US Colonies Taverner Oct 2013 #40
Former. Hawaii is now a state that not only votes for our President, but geek tragedy Oct 2013 #87
We need to colonize Canada RobertEarl Oct 2013 #117
I would love it if Canada would become part of the US. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #119
Don't jump the shark RobertEarl Oct 2013 #121
BeFree...nt SidDithers Oct 2013 #132
And 3 of them aren't now treestar Oct 2013 #137
Huh? malaise Oct 2013 #126
Bring back Unrec...nt SidDithers Oct 2013 #32
Why do you love the empire? Taverner Oct 2013 #38
I love the empire because that where I keep all my stuff. FSogol Oct 2013 #124
I second that. n/t FSogol Oct 2013 #123
And we have been for many decades. nt. WeekendWarrior Oct 2013 #33
Since inception Taverner Oct 2013 #63
well...half the country defends atrocity when their team does it noiretextatique Oct 2013 #35
Most people in Central America don't hate the United States the way you do. nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #50
not anymore, perhaps noiretextatique Oct 2013 #74
1) I don't post in the BOG; 2) what is your obsession with that group; geek tragedy Oct 2013 #81
It's easier to pound on a scapegoat than to come up with good arguments. That's the BOG fascination stevenleser Oct 2013 #98
It's weird, they treat BOG as not only pro-Obama cultists, but also rightwing jingoists geek tragedy Oct 2013 #101
oh please: the OP is not "wallowing in hatred" and neither am I noiretextatique Oct 2013 #116
The OP was pure hatred of the United States. Allow me to bold all of the hate: geek tragedy Oct 2013 #118
Not to mention a long history. /nt pintobean Oct 2013 #122
Well, genocide is an undeniable fact of our nation's history... antigone382 Oct 2013 #159
Really? Taverner Oct 2013 #77
How many times have you been to Central America? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #84
Well, I have been there once, and much of my social group are Mexicans and Hondurans... antigone382 Oct 2013 #160
Do you know most people in Central America? a la izquierda Oct 2013 #92
I know my own experiences having traveled there at least once per year, plus geek tragedy Oct 2013 #97
I guess it depends who you talk to and where a la izquierda Oct 2013 #105
At some point, the past stops being the present. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #109
The rest of the world is over 50% ant-American? WOW! nt Incitatus Oct 2013 #111
Taken from Pew surveys during GW Bush administration nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #112
OK, that explains a lot. Incitatus Oct 2013 #141
Sure, it's kind of like seeing someone when they're drunk. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #142
why do you hate america? noiretextatique Oct 2013 #42
I know. As long as the guy has a D next to his name... Taverner Oct 2013 #45
Let's see the puppies first nt Dreamer Tatum Oct 2013 #48
Well, he does hate America, but I agree he explained that hatred pretty well, so geek tragedy Oct 2013 #53
By that logic, I could say you LOVE war Taverner Oct 2013 #72
this sounds exactly like the wingnuts noiretextatique Oct 2013 #76
No, I don't express admiration for war or death or killing brown people. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #90
The right wingers were right in some cases treestar Oct 2013 #138
LOL Cali_Democrat Oct 2013 #51
what is a crypto fascist? Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #54
Someone who is secretly fascist Taverner Oct 2013 #64
ahhhh....secret fascists. why not just say that? Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #67
Crypto Fascist sounds cooler Taverner Oct 2013 #71
I agree and support your views,Taverner. We or should I say, the powers-that-be, have.. BlueJazz Oct 2013 #58
Yep. And bullies here on DU are cheering the killing Taverner Oct 2013 #60
your view of how many countries view the U.S. is cartoonish. Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #62
It's how this Australian sees the USA. (and I'm a citizen of both) BlueJazz Oct 2013 #108
I guess ProSense Oct 2013 #59
Also, if you come out of the closet as a cryptofascist Dreamer Tatum Oct 2013 #65
Ad hominem attacks...take a logic class bro Taverner Oct 2013 #69
LOL! ProSense Oct 2013 #73
IT sure is funny when three year olds try an act like adults Taverner Oct 2013 #75
Is that why the OP makes no sense? ProSense Oct 2013 #78
Dude, you really should let the adults talk Taverner Oct 2013 #82
I'm not a "dude," and ProSense Oct 2013 #85
The "adult" can no longer talk. pintobean Oct 2013 #93
that is the best point in an over the top thread like this Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #115
Where did you take your logic class? pintobean Oct 2013 #80
"Ron (and Rand) Paul are cryptofascists" ProSense Oct 2013 #95
So... it was pintobean Oct 2013 #99
hysterical nt arely staircase Oct 2013 #86
If this is the end of the empire... BKH70041 Oct 2013 #100
Agree. We are currently the biggest mass murderers on the planet. Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #102
We are certainly getting there at any rate. Thanks for the post, K&R quinnox Oct 2013 #103
Hyperbole + negative nationalism + simplistic arguments. The trifecta. stevenleser Oct 2013 #110
Exactly. And from DU's Terms of Service FSogol Oct 2013 #125
Account status: Flagged for review pintobean Oct 2013 #143
Interesting. Looks like 2 people had accounts flagged for review yesterday. FSogol Oct 2013 #148
Did you see this thread last night pintobean Oct 2013 #149
Nope. Geeze, what a mess. n/t FSogol Oct 2013 #150
And there's this pintobean Oct 2013 #151
Time out is getting crowded pintobean Oct 2013 #153
Trumad survived being flagged for review. Wonder what FSogol Oct 2013 #154
Executions on Monday Night Football ... MindMover Oct 2013 #114
Yep... WillyT Oct 2013 #131
And... WillyT Oct 2013 #135
Here's a link to a very pertinent article 90-percent Oct 2013 #129
Bush Family Evil Empire Octafish Oct 2013 #130
What about the terrorists? Pharaoh Oct 2013 #133
Wow, that's original. n/t pnwmom Oct 2013 #134
I like to smoke weed and listen to Rage Against The Machine too. Throd Oct 2013 #145
anyone who uses "crypto-Chomsky rants" bobduca Oct 2013 #158
another end times prediction. JoePhilly Oct 2013 #147
I'm afraid it's a just little more complicated than that BeyondGeography Oct 2013 #152
You may be interested in which country provided the most aid, by far, to the 2004 tsunami victims. Nye Bevan Oct 2013 #155
I think the "power brokers" that run the US are the "evil" element, which makes us all look bad. tenderfoot Oct 2013 #156
please share your chronic with me. nt dionysus Oct 2013 #161
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