General Discussion

gulliver

(14,005 posts) Sun Nov 3, 2013, 02:56 PM Nov 2013

Is Snowden buying asylum by fanning the flames of anti-Americanism? [View all]

Didn't this Snowden/Greenwald thing start out being about the NSA spying on American citizens? How did it morph into being about America spying on foreign countries? Why would it?

One possible reason is simple. Snowden's Russian asylum runs out in July 2014. He needs to start finding somewhere else to go. And that raises a huge conflict of interest. It is now good for Snowden to try to portray the United States as some kind of "Great Spying Satan" to anyone and everyone who will listen. By fanning the flames of anti-Americanism abroad, Snowden increases the likelihood of future grants of asylum. If he enrages the populace of foreign countries against the United States, that populace might force or allow its leadership to harbor Snowden after his Russian asylum runs out. It's terrible for America but good for Snowden.

I'm not sure his American fan club noticed the change in message emphasis by Snowden, so I thought I would call it out. What if Snowden had led with revelations that the NSA was spying on Brazil and Germany? Would he have gotten his U.S. fans on board with that? I doubt it. Now that it looks like Snowden is arguably playing some seriously dirty pool, will they stay with him?

234 replies

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Highlight:

Is Snowden buying asylum by fanning the flames of anti-Americanism? [View all] gulliver Nov 2013 OP

It is not Anti-American to do what he did .... Vox Moi Nov 2013 #1

It's not back and white karynnj Nov 2013 #60

If he had told Rand Paul or Pat Leahy, the NSA would have spied on his communications, JDPriestly Nov 2013 #65

I suggest you look into Leahy's history karynnj Nov 2013 #67

But how would he have communicated with Leahy without the NSA finding out? JDPriestly Nov 2013 #201

Easy karynnj Nov 2013 #218

While in Hawaii? Puhleese. JDPriestly Nov 2013 #229

Before he went to Hawaii - where he spend time pulling documents to leak karynnj Nov 2013 #230

But China is safe and looks like a vacation even from Hawaii. JDPriestly Nov 2013 #231

Sorry - I have to disagree karynnj Nov 2013 #233

Who cares if it's harmful? We deserve it. alarimer Nov 2013 #82

BAZINGA! HangOnKids Nov 2013 #137

You suggest that Senators would have disclosed the info Greenwald disclosed Cordelio Maldonado Nov 2013 #141

Great point and welcome to DU! nt riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #143

thanks nt Cordelio Maldonado Nov 2013 #147

Come back soon, again...nt SidDithers Nov 2013 #228

Agreed! JDPriestly Nov 2013 #64

There was nothing patriotic about him leaking information pnwmom Nov 2013 #95

Agreed. mimi85 Nov 2013 #176

Thank you! nt kelliekat44 Nov 2013 #210

+1,000 Scuba Nov 2013 #209

EPIC FAIL FreakinDJ Nov 2013 #2

The Constitution is overrated Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #161

GW Bush said the Constitution was just a godamn piece of paper riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #177

LOL Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #179

Agreed - the parliamentary democracies are founded on more solid principles. Maedhros Nov 2013 #185

Debtors Dungeon, Guilty till Proven Innocent, Selling children into Sweat Shops FreakinDJ Nov 2013 #207

Exposing illegal and unethical behavior by rogue agencies is now "dirty pool." last1standing Nov 2013 #3

very good question..and the answer is because this administration is doing it.. xiamiam Nov 2013 #17

What did he warn the American people about? randome Nov 2013 #21

Either you haven't been keeping up on this subject or you are trying to mislead posters. last1standing Nov 2013 #37

Yes. They do all of that and more. randome Nov 2013 #42

Nice try at parsing words, but even then you are not correct. last1standing Nov 2013 #48

Part of it is because of the interconnectedness of information today. randome Nov 2013 #53

Lol! Your persistent denial of the importance of this story gets more amusing every day. riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #59

According to the New York Times, yesterday, they hire 35,000 employees to review all the junk JDPriestly Nov 2013 #70

According to the New York Times... randome Nov 2013 #72

LOL! So now it's the 'sensible woodchuck' argument. last1standing Nov 2013 #74

What do you think prevents the FBI from snooping on you? The CIA? randome Nov 2013 #76

That is exactly why we're "hand-wringing and screaming" as you put it. last1standing Nov 2013 #79

You keep saying they're spying on us. randome Nov 2013 #80

I keep saying it because we have proof that they are. last1standing Nov 2013 #87

Does the FBI spy on us when they suspect us of a crime? Or the way the NSA does it? Cordelio Maldonado Nov 2013 #99

It's still not against the law to monitor foreign communications. randome Nov 2013 #142

Randome, please explain to me why we taxpayers should pay 35,000 employees to sort through JDPriestly Nov 2013 #69

I don't think it's worth it. I never said I support the NSA in everything they do. randome Nov 2013 #75

This program has lots of victims. Taxpayers to start with. JDPriestly Nov 2013 #84

Great! You and Mike Rogers (R) are on the exact same page. last1standing Nov 2013 #88

We will make it illegal. The NSA is just courting a huge scandal. JDPriestly Nov 2013 #68

Again, I agree. Shift the money to more useful purposes. randome Nov 2013 #78

because you are not rogue if everyone else is doing the same thing VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #126

Really? I didn't know that other countries were bound by our Constitution and laws. last1standing Nov 2013 #155

Rogue is the operative word here.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #157

Rogue IS the operative word and I'm not sure you understand what it means. last1standing Nov 2013 #158

being "A" singular!!!!! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #164

And please tell me how your interpretation of the definition varies from what I stated. last1standing Nov 2013 #170

If the entire First World's spying agencies are doing the same....as I have established. VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #171

I forget... what's it called when someone states something that they know isn't true? last1standing Nov 2013 #172

the same evidence...SNOWDEN himself! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #173

No World Leaders huh? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #174

If you think none of these other countries would spy on PBO....you have another think coming! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #175

Three posts in response and not one of them responds to my repeated statement. last1standing Nov 2013 #178

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? How the hell would I prove that? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #181

If you can't prove it, don't assert it as evidence unless you want to be called out. last1standing Nov 2013 #184

I havent asserted it....I have asserted that ALL nations are spying on each other! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #186

You asserted that other countries would tap Obama's phone if they could. You have no proof of that. last1standing Nov 2013 #188

in fact...here is anther one... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #187

"You cannot show one instance of another country tapping President Obama's cell phone." brush Nov 2013 #190

This need to act as though those of us who state the NSA is out of control are naive is disingenuous last1standing Nov 2013 #192

Absolutely. mimi85 Nov 2013 #180

What in the world do they think "SPYS" do? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #182

We're bound by international law to not torture people. We do. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #167

As far as spying goes...We are Not...since now the same source says they are too! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #168

Germany isn't an imperial power, neither is Mexico, Brazil, or Italy. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #169

There's a reason there were flames to fan in the first place. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #4

The NSA is ...UnAmerican. eom G_j Nov 2013 #5

How is Snowden being any different than many Americans? AZ Progressive Nov 2013 #6

Simple solution. Give him his passport back and let him decide where to live. Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2013 #7

America's actions portray itself as the "Great Spying Satan." OnyxCollie Nov 2013 #8

pretending other countries aren't also spying is for very foolish people. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #24

No other country except maybe China is spying like we do. JDPriestly Nov 2013 #73

Oh but you are wrong...and here it is from the Guardian VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #123

Did you read the entire article carefully? JDPriestly Nov 2013 #203

Who's pretending that other countries are not spying? Cordelio Maldonado Nov 2013 #144

Not that I'm a big fan of the NSA, Jamaal510 Nov 2013 #9

yep. n/t Whisp Nov 2013 #11

I agree and I think it is "exposing" something else frankly... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #16

What good would it do to complain? Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #19

well, first of all you wouldn't look like a hypocrite. And it's funny you talk about China KittyWampus Nov 2013 #25

The idea that the Germans wouldn't spy on any foreigners treestar Nov 2013 #97

Complaining about Germany, Canada, England, etc. is like spitting in the wind. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #160

A perfectly logical position. ronnie624 Nov 2013 #196

Do you think your complaints have influence over US spying policies? joshcryer Nov 2013 #183

I know that my activism does on a local and state level. I know that Snowden's Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #189

I think our vote can matter on a local level. joshcryer Nov 2013 #205

So what are these important foreign spying revelations Bradical79 Nov 2013 #34

No other country will be spying to the extent that we are. JDPriestly Nov 2013 #77

See if you find this funny Laughing Mirror Nov 2013 #41

Bingo. SnoGreen is going out of their way to hurt our standing with our allies Hekate Nov 2013 #47

Links to the source that Snowden dumped "everything into the hands of our enemies"? nt riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #55

Sharing the data with Government ran chinese media enough? uponit7771 Nov 2013 #86

Sharing that the NSA was hacking Chinese computers is "everything"? riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #118

+1 uponit7771 Nov 2013 #85

And they go even more quiet when the info is released that other countries use the NSA info to Number23 Nov 2013 #159

Germany, Brazil, Mexico, and Italy aren't hyperimperial powers. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #165

I think Snowden and Greenwald are exposing the full extent of NSA surveillance and this is winning Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #10

LOL! Mainly Russia. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #26

mainly America - Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #39

I hope he eventually wins more prestigious boomersense Nov 2013 #38

You do realize that their countries do it to? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #124

the fact that foreign agencies worked with the NSA shows a global level of mass surveillance that Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #197

Which is why all the U.S. bashing over it is hypocritical.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #198

I'm not interested in U.S. bashing or Obama bashing - I'm interested in restraining Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #208

Then stop JUST focusing on the NSA...its much bigger than that! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #213

I don't have any say in how any other country deals with their intelligence gatheirng Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #214

but the point to THIS conversation is...it is NOT rogue... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #215

the point of this conversation is Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #216

but not rogue... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #217

out of control and dangerous and a threat - whatever words you want to use are not important Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #219

I will. Trifling with a rogue nation is A-OK with me.............nt boomersense Nov 2013 #12

How is it rogue if everyone else is doing it too? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #18

I don't see that every other nation is doing it to the extent the boomersense Nov 2013 #28

so what is your threshold? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #89

How much I hear from friends and associates in other countries who keep their ears tuned boomersense Nov 2013 #103

Oh Really....not insignificant according to Snowden himself. VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #105

I will have to hear that directly from boomersense Nov 2013 #109

Read it for yourself.. VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #111

"...according to documents..." leaked by boomersense Nov 2013 #113

yeah...the documents.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #114

How about the irony of it coming from The Guardian? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #115

You mean America's number one ally? Oh, yes, pure irony.......nt boomersense Nov 2013 #119

Denial is not a river in Egypt... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #120

They are rogue to the EXTENT that America does it, which boomersense Nov 2013 #121

Do you know what the word Rogue means? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #122

Russia was not in your original collection of rogues? Russia is different. They are boomersense Nov 2013 #125

NO Russia does it...GB does it...France Does it...Germany does it...Sweden does it VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #127

You're the one who doesn't know what rogue means, or at least boomersense Nov 2013 #129

Rogue means leaving the herd.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #133

Yes, partly............. boomersense Nov 2013 #139

Rogue used in this case means....deviating from the norm.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #149

No Rogue doesn't mean spying.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #134

a Variation from the standard as well... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #136

YES Russia too... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #128

It's not the NSA Boogy man...they are all doing it...Check out Sweden: VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #116

So I have to ask again... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #107

Once again, in collective thought: Because based on my contacts all over the world and their boomersense Nov 2013 #108

and the US citizens all knew how much spying was going on too I suppose? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #151

I have to feed my dogs, VanillaRhapsody. Nice talking to you.........nft boomersense Nov 2013 #153

Why don't you inform us how much other countries are spying? Cordelio Maldonado Nov 2013 #146

this much.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #150

Google and Facebook and Apple are spying on you too! DontTreadOnMe Nov 2013 #32

Name one country that has 35,000 employees sorting through the communications of JDPriestly Nov 2013 #83

So you don't think France and Germany and GB have expansive VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #91

According to Snowden... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #93

"Let's say you have an important criminal charge, an unwarranted, false charge against you" jberryhill Nov 2013 #101

americanism buys all the anti all by itself. xchrom Nov 2013 #13

The more I post here. ForgoTheConsequence Nov 2013 #14

The more I post here, the easier it is to spot the leftwing ideologues KittyWampus Nov 2013 #27

Left wingers on a liberal board? ForgoTheConsequence Nov 2013 #40

"Are you now, or have you ever been...a Left Wing Ideologue?" Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2013 #43

Guilty. ForgoTheConsequence Nov 2013 #44

Hi! Left-wing ideologue right here! Nice to meet you. nt bemildred Nov 2013 #50

maybe we could get a protected group on DU grasswire Nov 2013 #54

I prefer to explore out in the wild. bemildred Nov 2013 #56

So What Form Of Ideologue Are You? cantbeserious Nov 2013 #62

One that says she won't for H. Clinton if she gets the nomination. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #206

Warren For President 2016 cantbeserious Nov 2013 #212

Character Revealed LondonReign2 Nov 2013 #102

spying on everyone everywhere is unAmerican in case you didn't know..nt xiamiam Nov 2013 #15

In case you didn't know, that's not what they're doing. randome Nov 2013 #20

The NSA is collecting data on every US citizen ronnie624 Nov 2013 #199

Not anti American at all. He is huge patriot in the traditions of the USA on point Nov 2013 #22

The revelations have included spying on foreign countries from the beginning muriel_volestrangler Nov 2013 #23

acually, some of the 'revelations' highlighted other countries spying themselves KittyWampus Nov 2013 #30

Are you saying posting 2 links relevant to the OP is being 'immune to reality'? muriel_volestrangler Nov 2013 #36

I'll consult the tarot and chicken guts, and get back to you with the truth you seek ASAP. nt Zorra Nov 2013 #29

You really just have to look at Snowden's actual history and actions. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #31

sorry, not compelling.... mike_c Nov 2013 #33

Let me honstly ask if you think it is American to spy not only american citizens but american allies diabeticman Nov 2013 #35

The new Snowden hating talking point. former9thward Nov 2013 #45

New? LondonReign2 Nov 2013 #104

No. The NSA is fanning anti-Americanism all on its own riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #46

You are ignorant if you think anti-americanism abroad needs to be "stimulated". bemildred Nov 2013 #49

Y-E-S!!!! Tarheel_Dem Nov 2013 #51

FAIL grasswire Nov 2013 #52

I gotta ask, do you even own a passport? nadinbrzezinski Nov 2013 #57

While I applaud his initial revelations CFLDem Nov 2013 #58

We Will Have To Agree To Disagree cantbeserious Nov 2013 #63

American Empire Has Fanned The Flames Of Anti-Americanism - Not Snowden cantbeserious Nov 2013 #61

"anti-Americanism", my extreme left wing ass. 99Forever Nov 2013 #66

No dipsydoodle Nov 2013 #71

Spying on our ALLIES is fucking despicable alarimer Nov 2013 #81

Then the whole world is despicable. Everyone who has the means to do it, does it. stevenleser Nov 2013 #211

Did you forget he ran off to China to tell them we were spying on them? Rex Nov 2013 #90

yes and no arely staircase Nov 2013 #92

No country worth living in will take him. MADem Nov 2013 #94

good point treestar Nov 2013 #96

Germany expanded NSA operations in their country. So many DU'ers are either naive or intentionally KittyWampus Nov 2013 #100

And no one connects the dots when it comes to Assange, either. MADem Nov 2013 #132

By the time Lucky Ed qualifies for Russian citizenship, I would wager boomersense Nov 2013 #110

Oh, gee--why don't you school me on "what's coming?" I'm all ears!! MADem Nov 2013 #130

The House voted 292-122 to pass Swaps Regulatory Improvement Act, which repeals a provision in boomersense Nov 2013 #131

Which has fuck-all to do with the OP. MADem Nov 2013 #135

Ah, my fault? I see............. nt boomersense Nov 2013 #138

You're changing the subject, for reasons unclear to all. MADem Nov 2013 #156

I am cracking up at the "the world loves him" posts. Not even most of America is sure Number23 Nov 2013 #162

Yep. I'll bet if he had it to do over again, he would have gone to see his MADem Nov 2013 #166

I still firmly believe the NSA used him. joshcryer Nov 2013 #191

Maybe...but I think it's also possible that Assange may have delivered him to the Russians. MADem Nov 2013 #194

He can probably apply for an extension. treestar Nov 2013 #98

He spoke the truth. I'm good with that. Autumn Nov 2013 #106

I am with you. He already has a few fan clubs. Here is one........... boomersense Nov 2013 #112

Seriously-- the window for smearing this particular whistleblower has passed. Marr Nov 2013 #117

I hope he enjoys the beet soup served cold... Historic NY Nov 2013 #140

I blame Bush and Cheney. Full stop. nt Electric Monk Nov 2013 #145

:facepalm: WillyT Nov 2013 #148

The NSA poured gasoline all over the world and lit thefire. Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #152

Which would make sense if everyone wasnt spying on everyone else. But they are... stevenleser Nov 2013 #220

The whole conservative talking point about everybody does it is just wrong. Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #223

No, you're not getting it. Not conservative. EU Social Democracies. stevenleser Nov 2013 #225

flames of anti-Americanism! KG Nov 2013 #154

Yes to your question. B Calm Nov 2013 #163

We interrupt this Flame Fest for the following announement: Le Taz Hot Nov 2013 #193

Since Putin told him to STFU, that seems unlikely (nt) Recursion Nov 2013 #195

I think that is probably as much for show as the EU leaders feigned outrage. stevenleser Nov 2013 #226

There's a fine line Recursion Nov 2013 #232

I see you're really not too bright Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #200

It kind of makes me wonder what Russia plans to do davidpdx Nov 2013 #202

If Putin can figure out a way to drag this out, he will. The Chinese and Russians love to have this stevenleser Nov 2013 #221

Makes sense davidpdx Nov 2013 #222

Goodbye. sibelian Nov 2013 #204

The actions of the US has done far more to fan the flames than what anyone here thinks Snowden did. hobbit709 Nov 2013 #224

No America fanned the flames of anti-Americanism when it decided to overwhelmingly eliminate any Uncle Joe Nov 2013 #227

The "flames of anti-Americanism" SomethingFishy Nov 2013 #234