General Discussion

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)

164. I'm not concerned with the trapping meme.

Sun Nov 3, 2013, 04:54 PM

Nov 2013

Just using it to make a point that it isn't just the man's responsibility to not get pregnant.

Maybe the woman should wear a condom, and/or be on the pill, if she or her sex partner do not want to have children.

The problem is that unprotected sex happens too often for too many different reasons. It always has and always will. Accidents happen with condoms. Like coming off inside the woman. Condoms, if used correctly, and if not defective, can be pretty good, but not absolutely safe. Birth control is even better if used correctly, although not 100%.

Having a child is the responsibility of both partners in a consensual sex act, not just the man. That is the only point I'm trying to make. It seems a lot of people are so hung up on fighting for a woman's right to choose an abortion, that they forget that it takes two to tango. They want the woman to have complete control over her body (which I 100% agree with), and yet if she chooses to keep an unwanted baby, and the man doesn't want that, it leaves his feelings completely out of the process.

Maybe that is what is fair because of the child...but then it's her decision to have that child. I just don't see it as completely black and white. I used to, but I keep having this nagging feeling that men should have some role in the decision about parenthood...not be shut out entirely.

Perhaps this stems from the fact that I am an atheist and I don't believe children need to be born once conceived, and I don't believe in having unwanted children either. The world is full of them. Everyone talks about how the woman in inconvenienced by having to raise the child for eighteen years, so it's important that she get to choose not to do that; but her decision to have an unwanted child has a lasting impact on the man as well, if he is paying support for a child he did not want and wasn't ready for. Either way, it can screw up two lives. Or more.

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Question: Why Do MEN Have ANY Say In A WOMAN'S Right To Choose ??? [View all] WillyT Nov 2013 OP

It depends on who is buying. IF the woman is buying she can order anything she wants for dinner. Vincardog Nov 2013 #1

Ok... That Was Good... WillyT Nov 2013 #6

Even that is bullshit. Don't take someone out to eat if you are that cheap. we can do it Nov 2013 #8

So you are saying I should have no say in her dinner choice? Can I at least pick the restaurant? Vincardog Nov 2013 #10

NO. WTF. Make sure to pick somewhere cheap with skanky dancers, too. She'll love that. we can do it Nov 2013 #12

The OP posed the Q: Does a man have ANY say? I say maybe and you call me cheap. Judge much? Vincardog Nov 2013 #15

NO. NONE NOT EVER. You deserve to eat alone and pick the damn place, too. we can do it Nov 2013 #26

Tough crowd... delete_bush Nov 2013 #28

I was thinking the same thing. nt Xipe Totec Nov 2013 #167

Or a whiny, smart-assed, snide one Isoldeblue Nov 2013 #66

Thank you. we can do it Nov 2013 #73

You Can Pick The Restaurant... You Can Pick Your Nose... WillyT Nov 2013 #14

What pregnancy? Vincardog Nov 2013 #16

The pregnancy that resulted from conception at the restaurant. Sheesh. nt polly7 Nov 2013 #23

:evilgrin: WillyT Nov 2013 #24

Restaraunt conceptions are the funnest... awoke_in_2003 Nov 2013 #60

There is a lot of seed to be had for those who do Five Guys for lunch. Gore1FL Nov 2013 #83

After a very disturbing and disappointing day on DU, I do love you. Squinch Nov 2013 #84

Really? Shut the hell up? Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #162

Yeah... And Depending On The Health Of That Relationship... WillyT Nov 2013 #171

The whole point of this thread demwing Nov 2013 #176

that is if she can make up her mind Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #203

A trap? Like: "Does this make my ass look fat?" or "If I died which of my girlfriends would you Vincardog Nov 2013 #204

exactly lol Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #208

they shouldn't unless inited by the woman to have input gopiscrap Nov 2013 #2

Why does anyone have a say in a woman's right to choose? leftstreet Nov 2013 #3

Exactly! etherealtruth Nov 2013 #48

Did you point out to right field... awoke_in_2003 Nov 2013 #61

MIKE DROP elehhhhna Nov 2013 #154

They shouldn't. They do because they have been the priests, the lawmakers, and the minions PDJane Nov 2013 #4

Uh, because they think they're entitled to run everything? Warpy Nov 2013 #5

I think you know my answer. (nt) Control-Z Nov 2013 #7

Because a man got her pregnant. RC Nov 2013 #9

True... But When Was The Last Time A MAN Brought A Pregnancy To Term ??? WillyT Nov 2013 #11

The man contributed to the pregnancy. That gives him a say. RC Nov 2013 #115

But a man doesn't necessarily HAVE to get a woman pregnant... CTyankee Nov 2013 #149

Regardless, the man had a part in the pregnancy. RC Nov 2013 #152

Women die in childbirth. Its her life that's at stake whether to abort or deliver riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #170

That is what I have been saying all along! RC Nov 2013 #172

I don't deny a man's input. But he does NOT have the "same rights" over this decision riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #173

I never said he did. RC Nov 2013 #174

Yes. Sadly, abortion discussions here are dogmatic. closeupready Nov 2013 #190

Yeah, I'm starting to learn that too. RC Nov 2013 #192

Since I don't know what you mean about "if he does not have any say in the matter..." I can't CTyankee Nov 2013 #189

Try reading the rest of the sentence. RC Nov 2013 #191

whoa, go back to what I said about a man having choices e.g. a condom, a vasectomy CTyankee Nov 2013 #196

The OP title question is:Question: Why Do MEN Have ANY Say In A WOMAN'S Right To Choose ??? RC Nov 2013 #197

Again: when do men have a say? If they think ahead and decide they don't want to be a parent, they CTyankee Nov 2013 #198

I don't think that's necessarily true. Blue_In_AK Nov 2013 #186

I keep saying this, but keep being told this anyway! RC Nov 2013 #187

so maybe she doesn't tell anyone and just had the abortion? CTyankee Nov 2013 #199

Well, at minimum because women need men to help elect legislators HereSince1628 Nov 2013 #13

LOL !!! - Personally... I Don't Think Women Need Men At All These Days... WillyT Nov 2013 #18

Well, so far, you ARE still entitled to dream large. HereSince1628 Nov 2013 #21

Women are only 51% of the population. Pab Sungenis Nov 2013 #67

And we'd welcome you. ancianita Nov 2013 #131

You've already got me. Pab Sungenis Nov 2013 #143

Wouldn't that be having some say clffrdjk Nov 2013 #175

the ONLY male who is in any position to even voice an opinion MIGHT be the one who had CONSENSUAL niyad Nov 2013 #17

Yup ^^^^^^^^^^^^ n/t MANative Nov 2013 #29

I agree. RiffRandell Nov 2013 #47

No. As long as it's her body, frogmarch Nov 2013 #19

Because rich, white men control the institutions of hegemonic culture. Deep13 Nov 2013 #20

I was going to point out the same thing. tecelote Nov 2013 #35

No chance, Ohio votes earlier in the day than NM. Deep13 Nov 2013 #134

That simple malaise Nov 2013 #144

Because as long as people don't know the difference between a clump of cells BrotherIvan Nov 2013 #22

If the couple is happily married and need to think of this option AAO Nov 2013 #25

The "Tie - Breaker"... In This Instance... ALWAYS Goes To The Woman... WillyT Nov 2013 #37

As it should be - WillyT! AAO Nov 2013 #159

Because some people like having power over others mythology Nov 2013 #27

I dunno,...because they're armed? Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #30

Because as long as this debate goes on, the 1% uses it to divide us LittleBlue Nov 2013 #31

You're mostly correct, with one exception: AverageJoe90 Nov 2013 #69

if the best way for a man and woman to raise a child is Triloon Nov 2013 #32

"dispose of one" ? Isoldeblue Nov 2013 #86

There's no other explanation than that the men who Aldo Leopold Nov 2013 #33

�. handmade34 Nov 2013 #34

Your bias is showing seattle15 Nov 2013 #102

I think my answer is MyNameGoesHere Nov 2013 #36

I would say that in any given conception, there is only one man that has a right to an opinion, Thor_MN Nov 2013 #38

Cause they write the laws? Egnever Nov 2013 #39

So... Why Do Said Women... Continue To Have Sex With Men ??? WillyT Nov 2013 #40

what Said women? Egnever Nov 2013 #41

Because they have the power. efhmc Nov 2013 #42

one person one vote arely staircase Nov 2013 #43

In a more perfect world, it would be wonderful if the couple who are faced with the choice, tavalon Nov 2013 #44

Presumptions of privilege and power, with the threat of violence or relentless, competitive pursuit ancianita Nov 2013 #45

Only if their partners want to share the decision with them... polichick Nov 2013 #46

well Chaco Dundee Nov 2013 #49

They don't. Dash87 Nov 2013 #50

Anybody!?!? speak... the question is asked!! amerciti001 Nov 2013 #51

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Nov 2013 #52

Yeah, and your penises are not weapons. If you use them as such, all of humanity should disarm you. ancianita Nov 2013 #58

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Nov 2013 #59

Women get to decide, and men can be ever at the ready. That's just as much in humanity's interest. ancianita Nov 2013 #62

2nd Amendment. Pab Sungenis Nov 2013 #71

The US has signed onto the Geneva Convention of rape as a crime. ancianita Nov 2013 #74

So guns don't kill people Pab Sungenis Nov 2013 #78

First disarm the criminal...a fair process, such that it can't be used against women again. Police ancianita Nov 2013 #85

Bonus question: Initech Nov 2013 #53

Uhh TimeToGo Nov 2013 #80

Agreed - they shouldn't... elzenmahn Nov 2013 #54

If the Man says "It's her right to choose" , he's OK by me. BlueJazz Nov 2013 #55

If his group decides otherwise, he's pretty powerless against them. And women know the group does. ancianita Nov 2013 #68

I understand. I've fought that ridiculous crap for years. I might put my old signature line back up. BlueJazz Nov 2013 #113

Interesting line! Glad you took it down, though, because it would open a whole can of whoop talk. ancianita Nov 2013 #118

ultimately we shouldn't fascisthunter Nov 2013 #56

. blkmusclmachine Nov 2013 #57

I don't. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #63

When a law is written Heather MC Nov 2013 #64

Husbands have a right to decide if they are going to be a daddy. nt rrneck Nov 2013 #65

Exactly what does this mean. Does it mean they have a right to give birth, MichiganVote Nov 2013 #70

It means rrneck Nov 2013 #82

Even if the wife says no? So then, they can rape their wives all they want? ancianita Nov 2013 #72

No. rrneck Nov 2013 #81

Subject only to his wife's agreement. His rights, or "say" don't give him any right to coercion. So ancianita Nov 2013 #89

The OP question was... rrneck Nov 2013 #92

Collective male class dominance. Ever see the unity among black and white men when women's "issues" ancianita Nov 2013 #97

The men that actually own the bulk of the country don't care. rrneck Nov 2013 #103

I'm aware of that possibility, but laws re-enforcing men's whims and desires prove otherwise. ancianita Nov 2013 #106

What reality is that? rrneck Nov 2013 #108

Impossibilities, you say. Why are 'we' having this conversation, you ask. Is that your closer? ancianita Nov 2013 #116

I think any fair reading of this sub thread will reveal the source of the peevishness. rrneck Nov 2013 #121

I think any fair reading would show that you made a declaration you didn't want to have to explain. ancianita Nov 2013 #122

Interesting. rrneck Nov 2013 #124

Oh, right back to Chaucer's Wife of Bath issue: what do women want?! Spare me. ancianita Nov 2013 #130

I didn't ask rrneck Nov 2013 #133

The line of questioning is the same. My feelings aren't your concern. Imagine what you like. ancianita Nov 2013 #135

Well, y'know... rrneck Nov 2013 #136

Ah, so that's what you imagine. ancianita Nov 2013 #137

Well, maybe I missed it. rrneck Nov 2013 #157

A 'right' or a 'say'? LanternWaste Nov 2013 #194

One's not much good without the other. rrneck Nov 2013 #200

Thorny issue. Pab Sungenis Nov 2013 #77

One would assume that the man would rrneck Nov 2013 #79

Heh heh. THAT textbook 'institutional' assumption and a bus token will get a woman across town. ancianita Nov 2013 #95

Then reform the law. nt rrneck Nov 2013 #98

Easy peasy. ancianita Nov 2013 #123

No. It isn't easy. rrneck Nov 2013 #125

You proposed it. I was being sarcastic. Until women constitute 51% of both houses, I won't even ancianita Nov 2013 #126

You're good at sarcastic but you're short on substance. rrneck Nov 2013 #128

Really. There's little substance on your end when I'm the only one so far to provide any link. ancianita Nov 2013 #129

Okay, here's a link.. rrneck Nov 2013 #132

Exactly! SoapBox Nov 2013 #75

husbands have a right to decide if they are going to be a daddy passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #76

Just wanted to add passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #91

Yes, of course the man has a choice...to have sex with the woman or not HangOnKids Nov 2013 #93

Actually passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #101

He choses to be responsible when he has sex HangOnKids Nov 2013 #105

They both have responsibility in having a child passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #107

I Am Not Determining Fault I Am Speaking About Responsibility HangOnKids Nov 2013 #110

the only one here who does not have a choice is the child. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #111

I agree passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #112

It would be pretty hard to trap a man who uses his own condoms and puts them on himself. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #117

If a woman says she is on the pill and cannot get pregnant passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #119

If a man does not want to have a child he should use a condom. If a woman does not want to liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #120

I wish life were that simple passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #127

It's not a matter of trust. It's a matter of taking care of oneself. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #138

I agree passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #141

It doesn't happen often at all and if a man doesn't want to be trapped all he has to do is wear a liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #142

I'm sorry passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #163

Child Support Is Determined By Income Ratio HangOnKids Nov 2013 #146

I'm not concerned with the trapping meme. passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #164

To be certain he doesn't unintentionally father a child he doesn't want. MadrasT Nov 2013 #155

Yes passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #160

Child support is for the child, it's not a prize awarded to non-custodial parents. LeftyMom Nov 2013 #140

That's not how it works gollygee Nov 2013 #165

It is entirely her own decision. SchmerzImArsch Nov 2013 #87

welcome to DU gopiscrap Nov 2013 #94

Thank you SchmerzImArsch Nov 2013 #188

Men often point to biology to justify their advantageous place in society. randome Nov 2013 #88

they shouldn't have any right. no man DesertFlower Nov 2013 #90

This message was self-deleted by its author cheapdate Nov 2013 #96

I think it's simply because enough of them claim an interest in fetuses. cheapdate Nov 2013 #99

Why does anybody have any say in anyone else's choice??? The Straight Story Nov 2013 #100

They should not. Kath1 Nov 2013 #104

As we can see from some replies on the thread, because of a delusion of "fairness" Scootaloo Nov 2013 #109

Do you really, REALLY want someone (who is pro choice) to try to answer that question... Silent3 Nov 2013 #114

For two reasons. ZombieHorde Nov 2013 #139

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #145

It's not okay when anti-choice women try to control other women, either. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #147

Only when it's their kid can they have CFLDem Nov 2013 #148

In a word. 99Forever Nov 2013 #150

I can't think of any valid reason why they should have any say. MineralMan Nov 2013 #151

Answer: They don't, but patriarchy means they get a say regardless. nt redqueen Nov 2013 #153

Exactly. (no text) Quantess Nov 2013 #161

I can see the issue when it's their child. moriah Nov 2013 #156

It's only their child after the woman has given birth. redqueen Nov 2013 #169

You can't have it both ways. moriah Nov 2013 #179

That's not having it both ways. That's one way - her choice. redqueen Nov 2013 #180

Saying it's "not his kid" until it's born is suggesting men don't have the right to grieve.... moriah Nov 2013 #181

Sorry, I was objecting to the language. Calling a fetus a "child" is incorrect. redqueen Nov 2013 #182

Eh, I'll say something that's far from PC here. moriah Nov 2013 #183

"It's all life" is nonsense. It's meaningless jargon which serves the religious right. redqueen Nov 2013 #184

I find it silly to argue with them about the point. moriah Nov 2013 #185

Much as the yolk in a chicken egg is called a chick if it's to hatch in the future? LanternWaste Nov 2013 #205

Fortunately most eggs sold in supermarkets are sterile. ;) moriah Nov 2013 #207

This thread has to be some sort of social experiment right? IronLionZion Nov 2013 #158

Yes they most certainly do. Puglover Nov 2013 #166

They don't ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #168

In a healthy marriage Turbineguy Nov 2013 #177

That has been my stand liberal N proud Nov 2013 #178

I think they have a say...if a pregnancy is involved..but NOT KoKo Nov 2013 #193

I have zero rights and zero say in any fully valid medical procedures anyone has (other than me). LanternWaste Nov 2013 #195

Religion God Jesus Morality dchill Nov 2013 #201

Technically it is based on the right to privacy. However, to me it is more about a women and her lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #202

Because men run the show. Avalux Nov 2013 #206