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Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts) Mon Nov 4, 2013, 06:29 PM Nov 2013

The "abortion should be rare" argument is thinly veiled paternalism. [View all]

This paternalism is EXACTLY the source of almost all anti-abortion rhetoric. It's the chivalrous men. The benevolent sexist. The enlightened misogynist.

Here's what we need to know about abortion:

A. It is an ammoral medical procedure.
B. It carries no specific risk of complications not experienced with other medical procedures.

It is a means to an end. End of story.

There is such a rainbow of different reasons for needing an abortion that any rhetoric relating to the irresponsibility of a woman, who supposedly should have taken better precautions, is nothing more than a form of "slut shaming."

I don't want abortion to be rare. I want it to be easily accessible without qualification. I want it to be common if it needs to be common. I want it to be a tool for women to use to suit their needs and desires. Not some false narrative of life affirmation or life destruction.

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The "abortion should be rare" argument is thinly veiled paternalism. [View all] Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 OP

agreed gopiscrap Nov 2013 #1

It should be between a woman and her doctor, period. lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #2

oh for fuck's sake NoOneMan Nov 2013 #3

It has always been common...with or without Roe V Wade VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #49

So there is nothing the state can do to reduce unwanted pregnancies? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #55

State mandated forced vasectomy of half the male population would make the situation rare. Zorra Nov 2013 #194

Or even, how about free ones? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #196

That seems a bit too sensible for the US to consider at this time. Zorra Nov 2013 #197

The narrative, the way we frame things, is important. The reason so much of society nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #68

Allowing fellow DEMs to think for themselves is what is important. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #114

It's in the framing Scootaloo Nov 2013 #106

Sorry posted on the wrong sub thread somehow. Springslips Nov 2013 #183

How does it compare to forced vaginal ultrasounds? Nine Nov 2013 #4

Actually, the legal but rare rhetoric is, as I've stated, anti-choice in nature. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #7

That's your opinion. Nine Nov 2013 #9

Sure, it's my opinion. It also happens to be factually accurate. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #10

It was actually dropped from party platform language in 2008. ScreamingMeemie Nov 2013 #17

During that time, what has happened to women's human rights? Our right to control our own bodies? nt redqueen Nov 2013 #22

Whatever gains or losses occurred had nothing to do with anyone using the word "rare." Nine Nov 2013 #37

The only ones dividing anyone up are you and the OP'er who fail the grasp the importance of KittyWampus Nov 2013 #42

Did you mean to reply to me? (nt) Nine Nov 2013 #47

This isn't about one word. This is about ALL the rhetoric which helps misogynists and the right wing redqueen Nov 2013 #50

It isn't? Sure seems like that's what some people are up in arms about. (nt) Nine Nov 2013 #51

I edited to add clarity. redqueen Nov 2013 #59

But it's being used to sow dissent on DU. Nine Nov 2013 #64

Easy answer - stop using the term. Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #73

BS words are words. The power is in the full meaning IN A SENTENCE. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #136

it sends a mixed and muddled message, if you think abortion should be more readily available bettyellen Nov 2013 #185

I'm not mixed or muddled at all. Available YES. But I want BETTER than this. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #191

Agreed, it should not be an issue after all these years. bettyellen Nov 2013 #198

SO. They say shi* they don't understand all the time. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #116

'some huge sale or abortion promotion going on when I go to my doctor." WHUT?!?! bettyellen Nov 2013 #164

I support readily available abortions in every state. I'm on earth. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #192

i like sex, but... i am attractive but... i like men, but.. it is having to put something in front seabeyond Nov 2013 #5

Huh? Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #167

it would eb a total waste of time explaining grumpy. simply that you say huh, seabeyond Nov 2013 #168

I am extremely liberal regarding medical abortions rock Nov 2013 #6

I feel the same way. Fetuses aren't people. LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #13

I did a rotation through an abortion clinic in the 70s in nursing school Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #57

I have managed a women's care clinic, assisted early abortions and IVF. There is a wide range uppityperson Nov 2013 #62

This is just what I said. Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #65

I think perhaps you're being just a tad enlightenment Nov 2013 #91

I saw Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #112

I didn't think you were suggesting that, enlightenment Nov 2013 #148

It wasn't anything like that Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #181

That makes a lot more sense. enlightenment Nov 2013 #186

Same here. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #26

That's it isn't it? haikugal Nov 2013 #36

Right there with you. Agschmid Nov 2013 #45

I'm sick of all the "situational rights" threads re:abortion NightWatcher Nov 2013 #8

+1 redqueen Nov 2013 #60

That is the bottom line. It is no one else's business but those two people. nt Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #113

This. Exactly! hamsterjill Nov 2013 #166

+1 MadrasT Nov 2013 #152

Not to be terribly picayune... Chan790 Nov 2013 #11

An abortion is a medical procedure. It is at face value ammoral. Whether or not someone wishes to... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #16

So leave morality out of it and say "It's a medical procedure" Chan790 Nov 2013 #19

Definition... haikugal Nov 2013 #43

I know exactly what amoral means... Chan790 Nov 2013 #92

And as a medical procedure Sgent Nov 2013 #101

Thank you for stating this. phylny Nov 2013 #103

OK, how about this: MurrayDelph Nov 2013 #12

Opinions are like onions. Rex Nov 2013 #14

that's pretty big load of bullshit Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #15

what the fuck are you on about? xchrom Nov 2013 #18

actually, the OP'er is being a goof. Unwanted pregnancies SHOULD BE RARE don't you think? KittyWampus Nov 2013 #33

shoulda, woulda coulda, 'liberal' blaming the victim horse shit. xchrom Nov 2013 #39

You have no grasp of the importance of empowering women to PREVENT PREGNANCIES via KittyWampus Nov 2013 #46

right -- i have no idea about education... xchrom Nov 2013 #48

I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #53

i'm in the choir. nt xchrom Nov 2013 #54

I am too. And I'm a soloist. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #72

Victim? LittleBlue Nov 2013 #69

Let me put it this way: When we talk about the need for bypass surgery... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #21

well, you may have a point that some bring it up for other motives Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #23

Depends on where you are. Here in UK it's covered by NHS, so it's no finantial burden. idwiyo Nov 2013 #31

Wrong analogy and why your entire OP is a FAIL. When we talk about vaccinations against unwanted KittyWampus Nov 2013 #34

You really don't get the paternalism, do you? Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #79

what the f*ck? Who in their right minds would PREVENT a pregnancy rather than undergo an abortion? KittyWampus Nov 2013 #123

Suggesting a preference is... a preference. People have them. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #127

All efforts should be made to prevent such situations where both abortion and bypass surgery are... NoOneMan Nov 2013 #44

"All efforts should be made to prevent such situations where both abortion and bypass surgery are... redqueen Nov 2013 #61

So when and where have laws been passed making it more difficult to get a bypass nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #75

Why now, they shouldn't. Laws should rather be passed to make them rare by promoting better health NoOneMan Nov 2013 #86

Agreed. But I was making the point, that abortion and bypass surgery aren't exactly comparable nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #89

Find me any comparable amoral medical procedure... NoOneMan Nov 2013 #93

Yeah, I don't disagree with that at all. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #96

Its exactly how the conversation goes Sgent Nov 2013 #102

first time I heard it was from Ann Richards arely staircase Nov 2013 #20

Meaning that ideally, unplanned pregnancies should rarely happen. Nothing wrong with that. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #76

rare alone would change the context arely staircase Nov 2013 #84

Being pro-choice is one thing. The more pro-choice people, the better. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #87

I define pro-choice this way arely staircase Nov 2013 #90

Exactly. And whatever choice the pregnant one makes, everybody else just has to deal. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #95

Abortion should be rare is a truism;a simple concept that can be expressed without attachment. NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #24

As I've stated up thread, the attempted imposition of morality upon the procedure... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #28

You are so wrong, IMHO. NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #41

But only as rare as actually necessary. Meaning no woman who wants/needs (same thing) one nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #78

That is a given, a no-brainer, understood. Given that, they should be as rare as possible. (nt) NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #80

Okay. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #82

"...is that women need abortions because they were too irresponsible" NoOneMan Nov 2013 #52

No, it doesn't imply anything about women being too irresponsible. pnwmom Nov 2013 #144

However, NOBODY feels the need to say it in those other contexts. Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #83

Oh what bullshit. "would not agree that it is in every instance an amoral medical procedure" NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #85

it's the family's coercion, and not the procedure that is a problem. bettyellen Nov 2013 #104

Better that fewer abortions are needed, ever. NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #105

Not fair to those who do not have access. Safe and legal are the essentials, counting them bettyellen Nov 2013 #109

Safe legal unlimited and rare nt NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #145

safe legal and readily available would be more important- wouldn't you agree? bettyellen Nov 2013 #161

He's against day care, too. Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #146

Anyone who pretends they don't know less daycare would be a setback for women is full of shit. bettyellen Nov 2013 #160

I'm inclined to agree on your first point MissMillie Nov 2013 #154

k&r idwiyo Nov 2013 #25

agreed, 100 percent.... mike_c Nov 2013 #27

I want people to mind their own business. I want women to have the same access to heathcare as men. we can do it Nov 2013 #29

THIS. People need to keep their noses in their own trough! WinkyDink Nov 2013 #94

"Slut-shaming" is one of the most overused terms on DU. And ideally abortions SHOULD BE RARE KittyWampus Nov 2013 #30

""Slut-shaming" is one of the most overused terms on DU." - Or, perhaps, it's just really important. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #32

Your OP is a complete FAIL. And perfect proof of the overuse of that term. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #38

It's a bullshit term. By using it, one is referring to the women who are being shamed redqueen Nov 2013 #63

The reference to sluts is to point out why people shame women... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #66

You don't have to explain the 'logic' behind the idea of reclaiming the word. redqueen Nov 2013 #67

The key words are "if it needs to be common" Prophet 451 Nov 2013 #35

I'll second that rather than parroting it. sir pball Nov 2013 #174

DURec leftstreet Nov 2013 #40

And just as I'm sure you'd prefer not to have any more knee surgeries than necessary... TroglodyteScholar Nov 2013 #56

My grandmother taught me that abortion has always been common.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #58

I've always preferred "Abortion should be unnecessary". Xithras Nov 2013 #70

I suppose with consistent use of reliable birth control, you can make it at least 99+% unnecessary. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #81

Many women change their minds after conceiving. To them. abortion is the method of choice. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #88

AMEN!!! Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #71

Good post, but do I think it depends on the intent of the statement. AverageJoe90 Nov 2013 #74

Excellent post. Thank you. n/t pnwmom Nov 2013 #118

Thanks. n/t =) AverageJoe90 Nov 2013 #126

Some people act like women are chomping at the bit to have abortions. Lex Nov 2013 #77

Oh, that Ted Kennedy. Wasn't he such a sexist, mysogynistic paternalist. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #97

You're talking about the guy who let his mistress drown in a lake? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #98

Ouch. Point taken (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #99

LOL! And you talked about slut-shaming. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #121

The entire appeal of the Kennedy men tended to be the fact that they were "players." Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #122

OK, I will. Nine Nov 2013 #173

I can recognize the work of JFK without hero worshipping him. He had a lot of troubling... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #179

This woman disagrees Retrograde Nov 2013 #100

I see abortion mainly as a clash of rights LostOne4Ever Nov 2013 #107

A fetus has no rights. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #108

If you want to be specific about it LostOne4Ever Nov 2013 #115

I agree the veiled tone of paternalism is there. I don't think it is a bad thing though to try and liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #110

If you acknowlege that abortion is a tragedy and ask for it to be rare, applegrove Nov 2013 #111

NO. CHOICE is about having CHOICES. Abortion is one, there are others. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #119

It is foolish to assume A. common sense exists concretely... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #120

What we ALL have in common IS somewhere in the middle. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #124

That the "correct" exists chiefly in "the middle" is a false narrative. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #125

I didn't SAY "correct" I said, "common" and MORE choices exist in the middle. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #131

If it isn't correct, then who cares if it's common? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #134

Because in a DEMOCRACY the majority rules. IF we have ALL choices available... Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #140

Again, "the middle" does not imply diversity or tolerance... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #141

We'll have to agree to disagree. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #195

That sounds nice but our society doesn't actually work that way. The middle has simply become a way liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #143

NO. They are using false equivilance to define the middle. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #193

tragedy? says who? bettyellen Nov 2013 #170

NOT a tragedy. It's a moral & positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, & protects families PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #172

As a woman, I disagree. I think most women would rather not pnwmom Nov 2013 #117

Well said. nt Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #132

Very well said. HappyMe Nov 2013 #147

I'd say it has more to do with 1800 years of Judeo-Christian morality than anything (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #128

The Christian God is essentially the shining beacon of paternalism. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #129

I think you mean "patricarchy" Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #130

No, I mean paternalism. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #133

It seems a bit ignorant to act as though one has nothing to do with the other. (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #135

You mean God and state? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #137

In a perfect society abortion would be rare, because unwanted pregnancies are rare. Kurska Nov 2013 #138

Well put. (n/t) MissMillie Nov 2013 #155

Hillary Clinton is a paternalist? davepc Nov 2013 #139

Why couldn't she be? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #142

It should be rare. It's a relatively expensive form of birth control and doesn't hinder STDs. JVS Nov 2013 #149

+1. nt Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #150

+1. Abortion must be available, but we still need to be teaching our people to use condoms, and liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #159

it already is rare in several states- due to the difficulty and logistics involved bettyellen Nov 2013 #162

The goal and the point the poster is making is that it should not be the first line of birth liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #165

that is an issue between docs and patients- not for Democratic activists to weigh in on. PERIOD. bettyellen Nov 2013 #169

You are very aggressive. Do you think you can bully people into agreeing with you? liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #171

oh, the tone argument, LOL. Keep pretending that access to abortion is not a problem in the USA bettyellen Nov 2013 #175

going on ignore. Buh, bye. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #187

well gosh, if you cannot discuss political issues without injecting moral bs into it, scat then! bettyellen Nov 2013 #188

most women and men do have moral reservations about abortion but still support the right Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #151

Yep. I cringe when I hear that language. MadrasT Nov 2013 #153

Perfectly and succinctly stated. nt redqueen Nov 2013 #157

safe, legal, and readily available. That should be the goal. It already is too rare in some states bettyellen Nov 2013 #163

I have a feeling it would be rare if we educated our children correctly. Iggo Nov 2013 #156

I can't agree with that LibertyLover Nov 2013 #158

Posts like this are thinly veiled poor mind reading Silent3 Nov 2013 #176

I agree, but disagree, too... cynatnite Nov 2013 #177

Wow OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #178

when and where abortion is readily available (and it is NOT) reroductive services follow bettyellen Nov 2013 #180

Absolutely they should be OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #182

and so politically, that is the message we need to send- women need more readily available bettyellen Nov 2013 #184

I can't disagree with that, I just don't OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #189

understood, but politically we need to accomplish an increase in all services bettyellen Nov 2013 #190

I want the *need* for abortion to be rare. JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #199