Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: JFK Conference: James DiEugenio made clear how Foreign Policy changed after November 22, 1963 [View all]Octafish
(55,745 posts)173. So you understand what Kennedy was trying to do?
Kennedy's approach to the problems of Vietnam and southeast Asia was very different from Eisenhower, as well as from Johnson and Nixon. His successors had no problem pulling the trigger, bringing in the ground troups to fight, and getting the nation into a war without knowing how or when to get out. Sounds familiar.
Galbraith and Vietnam
by RICHARD PARKER
The Nation, March 14, 2005 issue
In the fall of 1961, unknown to the American public, John F. Kennedy was weighing a crucial decision about Vietnam not unlike that which George W. Bush faced about Iraq in early 2002--whether to go to war. It was the height of the cold war, when Communism was the "terrorist threat," and Ho Chi Minh the era's Saddam Hussein to many in Washington. But the new President was a liberal Massachusetts Democrat (and a decorated war veteran), not a conservative Sunbelt Republican who claimed God's hand guided his foreign policy. JFK's tough-minded instincts about war were thus very different. Contrary to what many have come to believe about the Vietnam War's origins, new research shows that Kennedy wanted no war in Asia and had clear criteria for conditions under which he'd send Americans abroad to fight and die for their country--criteria quite relevant today.
But thanks also in part to recently declassified records, we now know that Kennedy's top aides--whatever his own views--were offering him counsel not all that different from what Bush was told forty years later. Early that November, his personal military adviser, Gen. Maxwell Taylor, and his deputy National Security Adviser, Walt Rostow, were on their way back from Saigon with a draft of the "Taylor report," their bold plan to "save" Vietnam, beginning with the commitment of at least 8,000 US troops--a down payment, they hoped, on thousands more to follow. But they knew JFK had no interest in their idea because six months earlier in a top-secret meeting, he had forcefully vetoed his aides' proposed dispatch of 60,000 troops to neighboring Laos--and they were worried about how to maneuver his assent.
Harvard economist John Kenneth Galbraith, then Ambassador to India, got wind of their plan--and rushed to block their efforts. He was not an expert on Vietnam, but India chaired the International Control Commission, which had been set up following French withdrawal from Indochina to oversee a shaky peace accord meant to stabilize the region, and so from State Department cables he knew about the Taylor mission--and thus had a clear sense of what was at stake. For Galbraith, a trusted adviser with unique back-channel access to the President, a potential US war in Vietnam represented more than a disastrous misadventure in foreign policy--it risked derailing the New Frontier's domestic plans for Keynesian-led full employment, and for massive new spending on education, the environment and what would become the War on Poverty. Worse, he feared, it might ultimately tear not only the Democratic Party but the nation apart--and usher in a new conservative era in American politics.
Early that November, just as Taylor and his team arrived back in Washington, Galbraith arrived from New Delhi for the state visit of Prime Minister Nehru. Hoping to gain a quick upper hand over Taylor and his mission, he arranged a private luncheon for Kennedy and Nehru at the Newport estate of Jacqueline Kennedy's mother and stepfather. No one from the State Department--to Secretary of State Dean Rusk's great consternation--was invited, save Galbraith. Ten days earlier, Galbraith, in one of his back-channel messages, had shared with Kennedy his growing concerns about Vietnam. From India, he'd played a role in defusing the Laos situation that spring, but over the summer, the Berlin crisis had sent a sharp chill through relations with the Soviets, with the risks of nuclear confrontation for a time all too real. About this, Galbraith now told the President:
Although at times I have been rather troubled by Berlin, I have always had the feeling that it would be worked out. I have continued to worry far, far more about South Viet Nam. This is more complex, far less controllable, far more varied in the factors involved, far more susceptible to misunderstanding. And to make matters worse, I have no real confidence in the sophistication and political judgment of our people there.
This was advice Kennedy was hearing from no one else in his Administration, but clearly welcomed.
CONTINUED...
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050314/parker
So, to prevent war...
Papers reveal JFK efforts on Vietnam
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff
Boston Globe June 6, 2005
EXCERPT...
Records show that McNamara and the military brass quickly criticized the proposal. An April 14 Pentagon memo to Kennedy said that ''a reversal of US policy could have disastrous effects, not only upon our relationship with South Vietnam, but with the rest of our Asian and other allies as well."
Nevertheless, Kennedy later told Harriman to instruct Galbraith to pursue the channel through M. J. Desai, then India's foreign secretary. At the time, the United States had only 1,500 military advisers in South Vietnam.
''The president wants to have instructions sent to Ambassador Galbraith to talk to Desai telling him that if Hanoi takes steps to reduce guerrilla activity , we would correspond accordingly," Harriman states in an April 17, 1962, memo to his staff. ''If they stop the guerrilla activity entirely, we would withdraw to a normal basis."
A draft cable dated the same day instructed Galbraith to use Desai as a ''channel discreetly communicating to responsible leaders North Vietnamese regime . . . the president's position as he indicated it."
But a week later, Harriman met with Kennedy and apparently persuaded him to delay, according to other documents, and the overture was never revived.
CONTINUED...
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/06/papers_reveal_jfk_efforts_on_vietnam/
Which didn't stop some circles from trying to kindle a conflagration...
From The Secret History of the CIA by Joseph Trento:
EXCERPT
Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: On instructions from Averell Harriman . The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodges own military assistant.
Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy. By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.
The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, Kenny ODonnell (JFKs appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.
At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Saigon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.
According to Corson, John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters, although Dunns role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodtge for special operations, could act without hindrance.
SOURCE:
The Secret History of the CIA. Joseph Trento. 2001, Prima Publishing. pp. 334-335.
So. Yes. There is that.
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
Recommendations
0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):
289 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
JFK Conference: James DiEugenio made clear how Foreign Policy changed after November 22, 1963 [View all]
Octafish
Nov 2013
OP
DiEugenio is one of the most interesting guys out there still working this subject,
stranger81
Nov 2013
#1
He brought up Edmund GULLION, US diplomat whom JFK counseled in Vietnam in 1951...
Octafish
Nov 2013
#2
Thanks for the corrective to the magical, naive thinking being espoused in the OP.
stopbush
Nov 2013
#7
Kennedy increased the number of Americans in Vietnam from under a thousand to 16,000.
Spider Jerusalem
Nov 2013
#276
And you know this, how?? Were you a friend of JFK, there during his administration?
sabrina 1
Nov 2013
#48
I'm going to say this again: I'm interested in discussing JFK's assassination.
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#45
Sad that so many DUers act as apologists for Oswald, the bastard that killed JFK.
stopbush
Nov 2013
#212
You acccused me of sympathizing with the killer of JFK. Either retract that or prove it. I have
sabrina 1
Nov 2013
#235
If you're saying that Oswald was the killer of JFK, then sure, I'll retract it and apologize.
stopbush
Nov 2013
#236
You made an egregious accusation. There are no 'conditions' under which an apology
sabrina 1
Nov 2013
#237
It's an interesting take on the Cuban Missile Crisis that JFK's real opponents were Americans.
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#44
Audio tape: LBJ urged taking "every step that we can" to support overthrow of Joao Goulart
Octafish
Nov 2013
#158
You must have missed the OP about the change in foreign policy between administrations.
Octafish
Nov 2013
#179
"The record" shows that there wasn't much change between DDE's foreign policy and JFK's FP.
stopbush
Nov 2013
#180
"little evidence that JFK would have pulled American troops out of Vietnam"
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#165
Our man Diem: How America Came To Back South Vietnam's Despised And Doomed President (by Seth Jacobs
bobthedrummer
Nov 2013
#144
Bolo Points Out That Forrestal Is Not Bundy Which Jim Appears To Be Confused About
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#254
But, wait! You didn't tell us the name of the university you mentor doctoral candidates for!
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#270
It bothers me that DiEugenio never managed to mention the university he works for.
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#277
DiEugenio said Kennedy was attacked bitterly in Washington for siding with democracy in Congo...
Octafish
Nov 2013
#18
The French had been kicked out of Vietnam for nine years when Diem was killed
alcibiades_mystery
Nov 2013
#108
"What does that have to do with the French colonialists?" Nothing, of course
YoungDemCA
Nov 2013
#110
I'm sorry. I assumed readers had a basic understanding of the history of Vietnam.
Octafish
Nov 2013
#164
Only ridiculous if you value supporting Diem, whose power came from corrupt colonialist money.
Octafish
Nov 2013
#170
Diem was a brutal tyrant supported by the US, including Kennedy, until he became inconvenient
alcibiades_mystery
Nov 2013
#172
Translation: here's a bunch of evidence-bereft CT books I've read before writing my own
stopbush
Nov 2013
#25
In the past, I've spent (wasted?) plenty of time showing you where you are wrong.
stopbush
Nov 2013
#92
Your problem is that you give way too much credence to little tidbits of opinion
stopbush
Nov 2013
#142
Have you even read Bugliosi? Be honest, because I don't see how you would make such a statement
stopbush
Nov 2013
#143
No, I haven't read his book. The great DUer H20 Man did and wrote interesting things about it.
Octafish
Nov 2013
#146
DiEugenio blasted Bill O'Reilly and his Nixon-stained GOP boss, Roger Ailes...
Octafish
Nov 2013
#22
David Talbot called Dulles, ''the Chairman of the Board of the Assassination.''
Octafish
Nov 2013
#191
That is a great question. What is this poster implying? The Conserva-Dems have been
rhett o rick
Nov 2013
#49
DiEugenio has written about the Right killing off the JFK Legacy (New Frontier), too...
Octafish
Nov 2013
#34
Re E. Howard Hunt's forged diplomatic cables tying Kennedy to the Diem assassination:
Mc Mike
Nov 2013
#73
That doesn't change the indisputable fact that Kennedy let the coup happen.
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#88
Actually, yes. What JFK wanted was different than what Pentagon, State and CIA delivered.
Octafish
Nov 2013
#135
"dozens of right wing gun nuts turned out to a restaurant in Dallas" - wasn't that incredible?
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#209
I'd say we agree on a lot of good Democratic issues, if not the one brought up by the o.p.
Mc Mike
Nov 2013
#239
"seriously deficient historically" - feel free to back that up any time now.
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#60
Chomsky: "Changes of Administration, including the Kennedy assassination, had no large-scale effect
ucrdem
Nov 2013
#61
Wow, a nation on a criminal path since November 22, 1963, and since the Gulf of Tonkin, a series of
indepat
Nov 2013
#33
You are right. I deleted my post. I just find that the obsession to lock or hide posts to
rhett o rick
Nov 2013
#75
Oh I see it. It's the conservatives that want to believe that Oswald acted alone.
rhett o rick
Nov 2013
#106
IMO those that are open-minded and willing to listen to different views are usually liberals.
rhett o rick
Nov 2013
#136
There is nothing liberal or conservative about thinking Oswald acted alone.
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#113
Not what I said at all. I said conservatives want to believe that Oswald acted alone.
rhett o rick
Nov 2013
#139
Most Democrats I know are furious the perpetrators have not been brought to justice.
Octafish
Nov 2013
#156
The perpetrator (singular) in the JFK case was Oswald. Case closed. The evidence is overwhelming.
stopbush
Nov 2013
#176
I'm not claiming there were "not conspiracies in any of the assassinations." Just in JFK's case.
stopbush
Nov 2013
#175
Everyone should read "JFK and the Unspeakable" by Jim Douglass to clear up the Cold Warrior thing.
Zen Democrat
Nov 2013
#81
Warren Commission Member John J. McCloy certainly helped to change/shape policies pre/post 11-23-63.
bobthedrummer
Nov 2013
#86
Some of US will never forget that simple fact, will we, despite what the perception managers peddle.
bobthedrummer
Nov 2013
#188
Did Sabato say anything about his study that showed the Dictabelt evidence is useless?
Bolo Boffin
Nov 2013
#215
''Stop hijacking your own freaking OP to discuss me and get back to the topic.''
Octafish
Nov 2013
#226